Agreed. I have always hated the level and badge locking on certain parts that totally precludes people from making certain characters, or at least making them 'right' from level 1.
Yes, I GET that some people don't give two hoots about that, and see it as 'challenge' and 'reward'. I find nothing challenging OR rewarding about having those parts locked away when there is nothing beyond cosmetic looks in the pieces. There are no Greaves of +4 Booshing, or a Mask of +5 Doodlesquip. I hate the Incarnate Armour for the express reason that it is not only locked behind iTrials but is only available to level 50s, a stance I thought the Dev team had long grown out of with the long ago removal of Jack Emmery. Clearly not.
So, before I rant too much;
tl:dr Put them in the store for the people who want to pay for them, leaving the in-game option or those who don't want to pay. That way, everyone wins.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Especially if, for example, they can't run the Halloween events x number of times with x characters to get a cool costume change emote, etc. I know personally, between work, school ad a new baby, my free time is priceless right now, so I'd be willing to drop a few bucks to pick up some things I might not be able to pick up due to RL.
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The event items especially. And the time is a valid point (although I know I'll get eaten by people kvetching about how stuff 'only takes a few minutes!' |
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Especially if, for example, they can't run the Halloween events x number of times with x characters to get a cool costume change emote, etc. I know personally, between work, school ad a new baby, my free time is priceless right now, so I'd be willing to drop a few bucks to pick up some things I might not be able to pick up due to RL.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The only problem I really have with with putting in-game unlockables up for sale on the Paragon Market is the idea of being able to buy these things -without- playing the game for them. I adhere to this radical idea that somewhere along the line I think you should actually have to play the game to get some of the benefits of playing it. 
As a compromise I'd be fine with the idea of being able to buy things for secondary characters as long as you've had at least one character on the account which unlocked the item via playing the game the intended way. I understand that having to unlock things MULTIPLE times can be annoying but I still think you as a player should have to unlock the items in question at least once by playing the game for it.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
I would love to have the unlockable stuff in the store. I'm not big on badging so being able to get some of the costume stuff without having to go find 200 or so of such and such an enemy would be nice.
Maybe even have a "holiday market" that holds the holiday stuff and is only open during said event. That way the merchandise retains it's exclusivity whilst still offering players that can't run all of the events a means of access.
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Like I implied in my last post something like this might be nice if its like the fifth time you've wanted to unlock something. But being able to "buy your way" out of doing it at least once almost seems like cheating to me somehow.|
Originally Posted by Phewmite
I would love to have the unlockable stuff in the store. I'm not big on badging so being able to get some of the costume stuff without having to go find 200 or so of such and such an enemy would be nice.
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The game offers these things as goals to work towards. I see absolutely no problem with being "forced" to complete those tasks at least once in order to be rewarded for my effort.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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Assuming that requirement can be put in place to make a Paragon Market item purchasable, then I'd be down with that too. I certainly don't mind doing the content once, just not 50+ times or only able to do it once a year in a 2 week window. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Like I implied in my last post something like this might be nice if its like the fifth time you've wanted to unlock something. But being able to "buy your way" out of doing it at least once almost seems like cheating to me somehow.
The game offers these things as goals to work towards. I see absolutely no problem with being "forced" to complete those tasks at least once in order to be rewarded for my effort. |
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Then why are IOs, which have actual in game benefits in there? Costume pieces are not 'benefits', since they give no gameplay benefit. Why should players be limited in how they look by some arbitrary unlock that is level gated? I call, and always have called, shenanigans on that.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The only problem I really have with with putting in-game unlockables up for sale on the Paragon Market is the idea of being able to buy these things -without- playing the game for them. I adhere to this radical idea that somewhere along the line I think you should actually have to play the game to get some of the benefits of playing it.
As a compromise I'd be fine with the idea of being able to buy things for secondary characters as long as you've had at least one character on the account which unlocked the item via playing the game the intended way. I understand that having to unlock things MULTIPLE times can be annoying but I still think you as a player should have to unlock the items in question at least once by playing the game for it. |
I wouldn't mind if all unlocks were like the Council guns (No badge, jsut beat up 100 Council goosn, any type), rather than, ooh, beating up 100 Fake Nems. Or 200 Overseers. Or Redcaps when they never naturally spawn redside except for during Valentines event.
Oh, and those frelling epaulets which are ONLY available to Blueside for doing all the FP TFs. I despise that unlock and whoever concieved it...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The problem with arguing against costume items being legitimate unlockable rewards is the faulty assumption that you can currently (by default) create ANY kind of costume you want EXCEPT those that require the unlockable items. The reason it's a faulty premise is that we actually CAN'T create any type of costume we want in this game even WITH all the unlockables unlocked.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Then why are IOs, which have actual in game benefits in there? Costume pieces are not 'benefits', since they give no gameplay benefit. Why should players be limited in how they look by some arbitrary unlock that is level gated? I call, and always have called, shenanigans on that.
I wouldn't mind if all unlocks were like the Council guns (No badge, jsut beat up 100 Council goosn, any type), rather than, ooh, beating up 100 Fake Nems. Or 200 Overseers. Or Redcaps when they never naturally spawn redside except for during Valentines event. Oh, and those frelling epaulets which are ONLY available to Blueside for doing all the FP TFs. I despise that unlock and whoever concieved it... |
Try creating an astronaut with a space helmet. Can't do it regardless of unlockables.
Try creating a clown with big clown shoes. Can't do it regardless of unlockables.
Try creating a ballerina with a tutu. Can't do it regardless of unlockables.
And so on...
So because we already do not have infinite choice when it comes to costume concepts the fact that a tiny handful of items are locked from use by a brand new character is not a legitimate reason to get rid of the entire unlockable rewards concept or find ways to undermine it via Paragon Market purchases.
My brand new character already can't be an astronaut, clown or ballerina at level 1.
What does it matter that it also can't be a Roman solider at level 1 either?
You asked the question "Why should players be limited in how they look by some arbitrary unlock that is level gated?" The question I would ask is "Why should players -not- have to earn at least a couple special items that are only important for a couple of specific costume concepts?" If there were like hundreds of locked costume items I might have more sympathy for your position. But because there's only a small handful of them I have a hard time agreeing with you on this. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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...I fail to see how 'Not being able to create a character because of level gating' is in any way similar to 'Not able to create because the pieces don't exist at all.'|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The problem with arguing against costume items being legitimate unlockable rewards is the faulty assumption that you can currently (by default) create ANY kind of costume you want EXCEPT those that require the unlockable items. The reason it's a faulty premise is that we actually CAN'T create any type of costume we want in this game even WITH all the unlockables unlocked.
Try creating an astronaut with a space helmet. Can't do it regardless of unlockables. Try creating a clown with big clown shoes. Can't do it regardless of unlockables. Try creating a ballerina with a tutu. Can't do it regardless of unlockables. And so on... So because we already do not have infinite choice when it comes to costume concepts the fact that a tiny handful of items are locked from use by a brand new character is not a legitimate reason to get rid of the entire unlockable rewards concept or find ways to undermine it via Paragon Market purchases. My brand new character already can't be an astronaut, clown or ballerina at level 1. What does it matter that it also can't be a Roman solider at level 1 either? You asked the question "Why should players be limited in how they look by some arbitrary unlock that is level gated?" The question I would ask is "Why should players -not- have to earn at least a couple special items that are only important for a couple of specific costume concepts?" If there were like hundreds of locked costume items I might have more sympathy for your position. But because there's only a small handful of them I have a hard time agreeing with you on this. *shrugs* |
Also, WHY is this such a problem? So what if some people get bits earlier? How, in any way, does that effect anyone elses game? The only reason so far I can see is 'Because I say it should be so!' which is a pretty pants reason as far as logic is concerned. The world/gameworld as we know it didn't implode when the Vanguard stuff went in store as well as staying as an in-game unlock, did it?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I don't think the Devs have this problem, since they are selling access to cape and aura unlocks already. And the Vanguard stuff.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
The only problem I really have with with putting in-game unlockables up for sale on the Paragon Market is the idea of being able to buy these things -without- playing the game for them. I adhere to this radical idea that somewhere along the line I think you should actually have to play the game to get some of the benefits of playing it.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
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They are similar in that they are both reasons why people can't make ANY costume they want at level 1. If you have to come up with a workable costume idea that the game supports because the game won't let you have an astronaut helmet how is that any different than having to come up with a workable costume idea that the game supports because your character doesn't have access to the Roman armor? The fact that the Roman armor IS in the game but just happens to be unlockable is not a good enough reason to justify making it available without having to be unlocked.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I fail to see how 'Not being able to create a character because of level gating' is in any way similar to 'Not able to create because the pieces don't exist at all.'
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Also, WHY is this such a problem? So what if some people get bits earlier? How, in any way, does that effect anyone elses game? The only reason so far I can see is 'Because I say it should be so!' which is a pretty pants reason as far as logic is concerned. The world/gameworld as we know it didn't implode when the Vanguard stuff went in store as well as staying as an in-game unlock, did it?
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Frankly this is the classic "making a mountain out of a molehill" situation here.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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Then one could easily ask if they allowed for those things to be purchasable then why did they not also include things like the Roman Armor? Apparently to them there IS a difference in some cases.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
I don't think the Devs have this problem, since they are selling access to cape and aura unlocks already. And the Vanguard stuff.
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Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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Or they want to spread things out so that they have enough stuff to meet the schedule of something new available in the store every week.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Then one could easily ask if they allowed for those things to be purchasable then why did they not also include things like the Roman Armor? Apparently to them there IS a difference in some cases.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I simply suspect that if the locked costume items like the Roman armor are on the "scheduled list of things to put on the Market for sale" that they would be pretty much at the bottom of that list. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Or they want to spread things out so that they have enough stuff to meet the schedule of something new available in the store every week.
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Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Why would you think that? they are free money. No extra work required to make anything, its all already been tested etc...
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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The problem that I have with this arguement, is you are basing this on costume items that are not in the game. You can't have your astronaut, clown or ballerina at level 1 because those pieces do not exist in the game. The Roman soldier costume pieces, Council weapons, etc. do exist in the game so why shouldn't I be able to access those pieces at level 1 if I wanted?|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Try creating an astronaut with a space helmet. Can't do it regardless of unlockables.
Try creating a clown with big clown shoes. Can't do it regardless of unlockables. Try creating a ballerina with a tutu. Can't do it regardless of unlockables. And so on... ... My brand new character already can't be an astronaut, clown or ballerina at level 1. What does it matter that it also can't be a Roman solider at level 1 either? |
My biggest beef with unlockables is you have to wait until some arbitrary time in the game before you can use them. If I wanted a Roman soldier themed character...sorry, can't do that until you're at least 35 and a good chunk of the way through leveling.
That said, I would totally be in line with Lothic's original proposal of making unlockables a global unlock, rather than a character unlock. By doing this also would negate the need to even put it in the market.
Full support for this idea. (Roman costume pieces ♥)
I really only have two reason for wanting to see the Crows CCE in particular as either a global unlock in the game or in the market...
a) It suits almost all of the characters I have currently in-game very, very well. All of my bird-things, certainly, plus the three Oranbegans, the raksha and the two magi. They couldn't ask for a better new toy, and it seems like a shame not to get it for them. But that represents a freakin' lot of repetition. A LOT of repetition... Seriously, we're talking 40-some characters here, on four different servers. o_0 ... Who has time for that? Especially since it's not a solo or duo-friendly mission, and I'll be entirely dependant on being able to find a team to run it. That kills any chance of being able to knock off alts here or there at odd hours.
And, b) It would also be great for two up-coming characters (Papageno and Abyssal) who can't even be rolled or played in their "real" forms yet. All I have for them are place-holders until the Titan Weapons set goes live... Even if that happens the same day the event starts, there's no way I'd get them both to 15 in time to run this thing. Especially not if I'm also trying to run the thing on the rest of the crew... It stinks that they'll have to wait a year because of release timing.
I can see the same problems for someone building a Roman Legion or a horde of Santa's Elves...
So, yeah... +1
Big +1
Please-take-pity-on-people-buried-in-a-pile-of-alts +1 
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
I think unlockable content such as Christmas event costumes, the new Halloween auras, etc. are great but I would like to see them on the store as an account wide unlock as well.
I would pay good money to be able to buy the Bat Aura or the Santa Boots or basically anything on this page: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Unlockable_Costume_Pieces if I could buy it once for all my characters account wide.
Keeping the in-game mechanisms are great for those who enjoy the content, who don't want to pay real money for it or for those who don't plan on making or rerolling a new character between the events.
Giving an option for those who are willing to pay to bypass that is even better. A win-win I would think.
It's debatable, even to me, whether or not to have badge locked costume bits (weapons as an example) on the store is a good idea but I would certainly love the event items put on there.
I know for sure that if a certain Dominator set is coming out later this year AFTER the Halloween event, that I will be rerolling Goblin Queen and I would rather hate it if I had to wait for a *year* to get the Bat Aura and Murder of Crows costume change emote for her again.
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