Would anyone take a melee power set with lots of Knock Down instead of damage?


Black Zot

 

Posted

I've always wondered why there was no melee set, similar to Martial Arts, but which was based on throws rather than punch/kick. The idea would be that damage would almost always be Minor, while the main effect would be Knock Down (with animations designed to look like an enemy being grabbed and thrown to the ground, Jiujitsu or Aikido style). It would almost be a kind of melee-based control set.

Now, I figure this has gotta be doable from an animation point of view, and I don't see any problems with it from a mechanics/balance point of view (knock downs that fail to proc would just look like a failed throw). But would such a set be so unpopular that it wouldn't be worth implementing? How could it be made interesting enough to be at least as popular as, say, spines (which I don't see that often compared to other scrapper power sets)?


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller

 

Posted

Number one problem with your idea is the proposed lack of damage. Melee characters live and die on their ability to down enemies before they get overwhelmed. Outside of concept players, nobody would touch a powerset that plays like a severely gimped controller.


 

Posted

The thing is, they had to add containment in order to make controllers viable (from their all control, low damage genesis). And this is what you're basically proposing, a melee controller with a lot of soft controls.

I think that in order for this to work, you'd need to add something similar, enhanced damage to an opponent that is already knocked down - which is a mechanic that doesn't exist (to my knowledge).

Still, it's an interesting idea.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
(with animations designed to look like an enemy being grabbed and thrown to the ground, Jiujitsu or Aikido style).
Positron responded to this on the Issue 21/Freedom launch Ustream Marathon during the 1st segment.

To paraphrase his response: So you have a set with the attacks being throws. Now picture two players trying to use this set at the same time.

It is a continual stream of animations that are being played out without the person being thrown actually in your grasp. It in effect looks ridiculous for much of the time.

Personally I wouldn't mind a set with as much KD as Axe has but without the god awful Lethal damage but I am pretty content as long as I have one fairly quickly recharging KD power and almost every melee set has one of those to use, if not I can take Air Sup.


Global: @Kelig

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by joebartender View Post
It is a continual stream of animations that are being played out without the person being thrown actually in your grasp. It in effect looks ridiculous for much of the time.
Isn't this the same sort of problem we have already whenever two very different attack animations happen concurrently against the same enemy? For instance, Shadow Maul and Dragon's Tail.


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
Isn't this the same sort of problem we have already whenever two very different attack animations happen concurrently against the same enemy? For instance, Shadow Maul and Dragon's Tail.
It's even worse when you consider the differences in size between various models, and that's not even including the non-humanoid rigs. In CoH it's almost impossible to make grappling look good with the current animation system.


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i make stuff...

 

Posted

I'm currently enjoying my Martial Arts tank with the Kinetic Combat proc in Thunder Kick and Storm Kick (20% Knockdown each), Kick (15% Knockback) and Crane Kick (60% Knockback).
Fighting a single target, I'd say they're upright and fighting less than 50% of the time, and it looks like theyre constantly getting tripped and thrown.
(Spring Attck and Dragons Tail coming up too... )

But I don't think I'd take even a single power that mainly did Knockdown instead of damage.

That would be a bit like Stun in Energy Melee, or how Cobra Strike/KO Blow/Clobber used to be. I do occasionally take Stun from Energy Melee, but thats to stack hard control. Wasting animation time and endurance on soft control alone would be an exercise in frustration.

A whole set of low damage throws? No thank you.

My advice is take your favourite existing melee set and invest in some Kinetic Combat procs. They're cheap, and quite effective at doing what you're describing.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post

My advice is take your favourite existing melee set and invest in some Kinetic Combat procs. They're cheap, and quite effective at doing what you're describing.
At low level if you have access to the going rogue enhancements one of them has a knock down proc too. Stops workign at level 20, but by then the kinetic combats are available.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
I'm currently enjoying my Martial Arts tank with the Kinetic Combat proc in Thunder Kick and Storm Kick (20% Knockdown each), Kick (15% Knockback) and Crane Kick (60% Knockback).
Fighting a single target, I'd say they're upright and fighting less than 50% of the time, and it looks like theyre constantly getting tripped and thrown.
(Spring Attck and Dragons Tail coming up too... )

<snip>

My advice is take your favourite existing melee set and invest in some Kinetic Combat procs. They're cheap, and quite effective at doing what you're describing.
Second that.

I play a Martial Arts scrapper regularly that has the Kinetic Chance for Knockdown in Thunder, Storm, Crippling Axe and Eagles Claw. Those along with Dragon's Tail's inherent knockdown and everything he fights is usually either falling down or trying to get up.

He rounds out these powers with Crushing Impact sets for 97.5% damage and ~70% recharge before bonuses as well, so he gives up very little in the way of effectiveness for all the fun (and mitigation) of the extra knockdown.