Street Justice could be the highest single target DPS set in game when taken by Scrappers

But again, all this implies is that the powerset has more synergy with Scrapper min/maxing than it does with Brute min/maxing. That doesn't mean, however, that a Scrapper using it will outperform a Brute using it. Not everyone who is into min/maxing does so from a purely numerical standpoint. For many, including myself, it is a mixture of concept and numbers. Ultimately, will Street Justice perform better on a StJ/Willpower Brute with no Gloom than it will on a StJ/WP Scrapper? I think they will at least perform equally, though if I had to guess I'd give the edge to the Brute.

So by that logic, if you were min maxing wouldn't you be taking the Brute over the Scrapper anyway due to their inherent offering more to StJ than the Scrapper inherent?
If Gloom hinders the DPS by not helping the combo system, then you don't use it. If it still increases DPS then it is just another advantage to the Brute.
Saying Brutes have the option of a powerful attack that Scrappers don't and saying having that option makes them weaker than Scrappers are two completely opposing arguments.

Bull.

Dark Melee has the weakest AoE of all melee sets. Unless you count 2 powers that deal less damage than Shadow Punch available every 2 minutes as "AoE". I don't.

As far as useful AoE goes, Dark Melee has.....Shadow Maul, and that's it. Yet Dark Melee seems to be pretty popular, in spite of it's pathetic AoE output.

Martial Arts has Dragon's Tail as it's sole AoE power. In terms of number of AoEs, Street Justice has more, and one of them hits harder than Dragon's Tail.

Fire Melee has Fire Sword Circle, and that's it (unless you are a tank). Yet Fire is held up as a "good AoE" set.

Is it Spines or Electric? No. But it's not the worst AoE. It is not difficult to hit multiple targets with Sweeping Cross, slightly easier than Shadow Maul in fact. It hits just as hard, and takes less than half the time of Shadow Maul too. Yet Dark Melee has better AoE? I don't think so.

The way Spinning Strike works is interesting. It has a 6' radius, that is true. But that radius is not centered on you, it's centered on your target. That means you can fit more enemies into that radius (which is a 12' diameter circle), because you are not taking up space in the middle of it. If you fire it from it's max range, you can reliably hit the majority, if not all, of a spawn. If you think it sucks, you're using it wrong. Don't target the guy standing right next to you, target the guy in the back of the spawn and you'll hit all the ones between you as well.

I'm tired of this whole "it's the worst AoE of any melee set there is" line of bull that several people are pushing. It is patently untrue, but it keeps getting touted as though it is a self-evident truth.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Just nitpicking really but Fire also has Breath of Fire which is quite a bit superior to Sweeping Cross which makes Fire a better aoe set.
Everything else you said still stand though and Street Justice most certainly isn't a bad set for AOE. Two AOEs (even if one of them is a little lacking and hard to actually call an AOE) is better than the one that a lot of sets get (SS which is considered to have good AOE only has one which is on a longer recharge timer than StJ's primary AOE)

I think the complaints come from the small AOE on Spinning Strike which to me is a pretty crappy complaint.

If I were to try and champion some kind of change to the set and it's aoe potential, I'd be trying to push for Sweeping Cross to be changed from a finisher to a builder. As a finisher, it is just there to blow combo points which should be used for either Spinning Strike or Crushing Uppercut and should probably be skipped. If it were a builder, it would be far more useful.

Okay sorry but let me stop you right there. Breath of fire does ~97 damage in 2.67 seconds with ten second recharge. Sweeping cross does, at minimum, 93 damage in 1.67 seconds on an eight second recharge and applies a number of secondary effects. The only advantage for breath of fire is that it's a longer cone with a higher target cap, but it's also thirty degrees rather than fifty. This means it's basically useless unless you take a little hop backwards every time you use it. Sweeping cross is excellent used at its intended range of "right up in their grill."

I think the proof is in the pudding. When's the last time you saw anyone taking and using breath of fire? FSC is also worse than spinning strike but I'll leave the demonstration of that as an exercise for the reader.

Sweeping Cross has a DPA of 55.86, Breath of Fire 39.12
That makes it look like Sweeping Cross is superior but there is more to it than that, Breath of Fire has double the target cap, by hitting twice as many enemies, it deals more DPA than Sweeping Cross. Not to mention it covers a far greater Area of Effect, which unlike Sweeping Cross can be further increased with range enhancements.
More importantly, it isn't disadvantaged by secondary effects that weaken the powerset as a whole. Using Sweeping Cross blows Combo points which should be used on a superior attack. Breath of Fire has no such drawback.
As an AOE, Breath of Fire is overwhelmingly better in all departments.
Sweeping Cross works better as a single target attack that occasionally hits an extra enemy or two. Or at least it would be if it didn't break the combo system by using it.

So, in other words you want the entire combo system to be useless until level 18 or 26 when you'd get your first finisher? Because that's what would happen if you make it a builder.

It's the third attack in the set, and available at level 2 on 3 out of the 4 ATs it's available on precisely so you can actually use the unique mechanic of the set as early as possible.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Lacks secondary effects? Next time I use it I'll be sure to quit stunning, terrorizing....

Weakest AOE? Points over at MA. Go complain about that one. Or ClawsandEffect pointed out DM...


Look, you don't like it? Don't play it and quit whining on day two from release. If (IF) there is any merit to your complaints the Devs will turn things up in data mining.
As it stands every set is different in ability, focus, and ways to shine. Learn to live with that and get off my Street Justice.

Well... no.
If I had my way, I'd have Heavy Blow and Sweeping Cross switched. the prime AOE finisher has a shorter cooldown than the single target finisher so it makes more sense for the third finisher to be a single target attack over an AOE to make chaining easier.
Also considering all of the builders are single target, changing one of the two aoes to be a builder instead of a finisher would make for a far more rounded set.

As it stands, StJ may have two decent AOE attacks but unless you want to completely ignore the combo mechanic, they are mutually exclusive and I think that needs to be changed - people will be much happier if one of the 5 single target attacks was rendered obsolete by the mechanic than if one of the two aoes were.

If it's such a great AoE, why are it and Confront the most frequently skipped powers in Fire Melee? I can count on one hand the number of Fire Melee characters I have EVER seen with Fire Breath.

You have to leave melee range to use it, which doesn't work well with a melee character. Especially if that character has a power that requires them to stay in melee (AAO, Invincibility, RttC, Entropy Aura)

Using Fire Breath actually lowers your damage output (and survivability for some sets) simply because you have to reposition a great deal to effectively use it, which eats up time you could have used on other attacks.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Except it's NOT rendered obsolete by the mechanic.

I one-shotted 5 enemies at once on my brute by using Sweeping Cross at combo level 3. I was level FOUR at the time.

It is a useful AoE that is buffed by the unique mechanic of the set, and it's available very early. That's why it shouldn't be changed.

When it becomes "obsolete" later on, you can simply respec out of it or stop using it. Those are much better options than taking a hard hitting AoE finisher away from low level Street Justice characters.

You can't assume that what is useful at level 50 is useful at level 8, for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Ah I see, so in much the same way breath of fire is also better than sweeping strike, golden dragonfly, headsplitter, jacob's ladder, ripper, and shatter. Gotcha.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-EZf56AfYc#t=24s
Sweeping cross is bad because it does extra damage and gains extra effects when you use combo points... hnhnnnnghhh???

As the servers are down right now I can't check the exact numbers but basically you're saying you wish the first finisher not only did less damage than sweeping cross but were also single target. Setting aside my powerful, powerful desire to be nonconstructive, it seems that your issue here is that you only like pbaoes and don't use cones in the first place. This change would enable you to skip sweeping cross and still have another finisher available. Am I far from the mark? My problem with this is that it would severely weaken the set with the justification of "because that's how it should work!"
The thing is, you can use sweeping cross without combo levels and it's still an excellent cone. Fire it off immediately after spinning strikes and it will have no impact on your "combo generation," which is a really bizarre thing to get your knickers in a twist about in the first place since as I've repeatedly said in other threads, the set's dpa is obviously balanced around the powers being used without any combo levels. The entire combo system is a bonus on top of what you already get. As Synapse recently pointed out, crushing uppercut is significantly higher scale than KO blow and total focus. What more do you want?
No they aren't. They aren't. No, listen: they're not. I mean it. If you cannot think of a single other way to make both of the powers work in a high end chain, you should at least be able to see how you can build up to combo 3, fire one, combat readiness, and fire the other. Both at level 3, incredible no?

For the same reason that people credit SS with having good AOE damage even though it only has one attack.
When paired correctly, your primary only needs one AOE and FSC is superior to Breath of Fire.
Also a lot of people overlook target caps when looking at the damage of their powers. People underestimate Breath of Fire because is has low DPA even if it has a decent cone and a decent target cap. Conversely, Burn is overestimated due to it's high DPA even though it has a target cap of 5. Burn does the least damage in my AOE attack chain on my farmer and yet people still regard it as an amazing attack and the defining power of Fire Armor which is a title that should be given to Firey Embrace.
In summary, people only tend to look at DPA when considering the effectiveness of an attack, not at it's overall usefulness.

No it is bad because using it weakens both Crushing Uppercut and Spinning Strike which are the two most powerful attacks in the set.

Then stop using it in an inept manner???

Heavy Blow does more DPA to a single target than Sweeping Cross does to a single target.
And no, you are on the opposite end of the spectrum from what I am trying to say. I love cones, I absolutely adore them. The problem is that with the current implementation, Sweeping Cross is skippable and I seek to save it not skip it. With it's current implementation, using it weakens Spinning Strike which is the superior AOE attack. By changing it to a builder and not a finisher, they can both be used in a chain without one weakening the other. To get my point across better, I am suggesting the change because I would rather Heavy Blow be the skippable power than Sweeping Cross.

This is partially true, it can be used directly after Spinning Strike and not blow your combo level because you don't have any but then the opportunity cost is that you aren't generating any combo points by doing this which conflicts with the set's mechanic as much as using pool powers in your attack chain.
I don't know if Synapse pointed out your last sentence or not but either way, it most certainly isn't an accurate representation of the set. Without any combo levels, the DPA of KO Blow is significantly higher than that of Crushing Uppercut.

This is a useful way of using it yes but a chain, it does not make.
That particular combination is up at the same frequency as Shield Charge - the cooldown is far too great to make a chain of.
As an aside, even with a 3 point combo being included due to Combat Readiness, Sweeping Cross is significantly weaker than Shield Charge and due to it's requirement of Combat Readiness to make the combo useful, it shares the same long cooldown.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't speak to me in such a condescending manner.
I have been nothing but amiable to you and have posted in this thread with logic, respect and accuracy. I would appreciate the same treatment.

Regarding the only potential post level 18, non "inept" use for it, just read my previous post.

Where'd you get this info anyway? Because the in-game real numbers for FE are notoriously wacky and sometimes not even present. Mids suggests that it adds 45% just fine. It may or may not affect combo levels though.

Did you actually do testing with StJ/FA and get those numbers?

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Really? You mean after you use Sweeping Cross you can't build more combo levels? You can't use the build up power that gives you 3 levels automatically?

It's not like building up to combo level 3 is difficult, and it's not like you have to wait 2 minutes before you can do it again. It is perfectly feasible to go Combo-->Spinning Strike-->Combo-->Sweeping Cross (While Spinning Strike is recharging)-->Combat Readiness-->Crushing Uppercut. That way you use all 3 finishers in an order that makes sense, and nothing is being made weaker by using anything else.

More to the point:

In a set that is already being criticized for having "weak" AoE (I disagree, but that's beside the point), why are you so determined that 1 of the 2 AoEs in the set should have nearly half of it's potential damage taken away from it? Because that would be the result if Sweeping Cross were no longer a finisher, it would lose a large chunk of it's damage potential when combo levels no longer affect it's damage output.

Why are you calling for a nerf to the AoE of a set that is already being seen as not having enough in the first place?

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Stop pretending I am saying things I am not, by doing so you are ruining your credibility.
I never said status effects are anywhere near useless - such a statement would be lunacy. I said the tertiary effect of Sweeping Cross using your Combo points which should be reserved for Spinning Strike, has a negative impact on your damage potential.
In response to your actual point, the finisher damage may scale in a linear manner but that is irrelevant. Whether it is 1, 2 or 3 combo points blown on Sweeping Cross and it's 5 target cap (which is improbably to reliably reach), the damage gained from them would be far better used on Spinning Strike and effectively have the damage boost from any number of combo points doubled by it's easier to reach and higher target cap.
So your solution is to spam AOEs and ignore the combo mechanic completely? That is very viable but it is also what I am trying to avoid. Surely you must concede that changing Sweeping Cross to a builder so you can spam AOEs and still have them contribute to the powerset's mechanic is simply better game design than ignoring it completely.
Thank you for letting me know the servers were back up.
Whether or not the DPA is significantly or marginally higher is subjective. The reason I mentioned it at all was to highlight the misinformation you are giving when saying statements like "Crushing Uppercut has higher Damage even without the combo mechanic".
The fact that you were wrong isn't subjective at all.
I am not saying Breath of Fire is the ultimate cone. I haven't bothered looking but I suspect I could find many superior cones. I am saying Breath of Fire is a better cone than Sweeping Cross. I have also provided several mechanical reasons as to why and none of which involve my opinion.
I also find it a little disheartening that I have to call you on pretending I am saying things that I am not.
Never in this thread have I said Street Justice is bad for AOE. The only time I offered my opinion on the AOE potential of StJ was in the first post of mine you had quoted. Ironically, the opinion I offered of StJ's AOE was: "Street Justice most certainly isn't a bad set for AOE".
I am not perpetuating anything. what I am doing is offering the pros and cons objectively so people can make their own opinions. That kind of objectivity is something these forums lack in an extreme way - fanboys like you defend everything blindly and without base, regardless of fact.

Look at your efforts in this thread - you claimed Crushing Uppercut does higher DPA than KO Blow at Combo level 0 which you have since admitted was incorrect and you have twice claimed I have an opinion I have no expressed. Stick to the facts and keep objective and you will do a much better service to spreading the word of StJ.

Now who's being condescending?

We both have a perfectly logical reason for not wanting Sweeping Cross to become a builder instead of a finisher: If Combo Levels no longer affect it's damage output, the set's AoE damage potential is lower.

Not opinion, FACT. If one of the set's 2 AoEs is changed to do less damage, the set as a whole will do less AoE damage.

If you don't like the fact that Sweeping Cross "makes the other finishers weaker" (which is completely illogical), you have every right to skip it.

It's funny how you'll call someone a fanboy while you're demanding changes to a set that will make the set worse, for no better reason than YOU don't like it the way it is.

I suppose that makes ME a fanboy too, just because I think the set is fine the way it is set up. And I AM looking at it objectively. The change you are proposing will make the set worse at something it is already being viewed as being bad at, but you don't care because in your mind Sweeping Cross makes the other finishers weaker (which still makes no sense)

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.