Energy melee is very, very average and unexceptional. Except it may have the longest animation times, idk.
You should probably stay away from secondaries that require you to mash buttons, like regen as a fair amount of your combat time can be spent waiting for animations to finish. Since it can be >3 sec from start to finish, you don't want to need to activate a power to stay alive during that period.
So, one of the set-it-and-forget-it secondaries may bring you more playing pleasure.
On the plus side, the animations are a good time to take a sip or a nibble, and a good time to do your in-game chatting.
This is also relevant to my interests. I have a level 44-ish EM/fire brute (my old main) monthballed since before i7, and I've been considering giving him a try.
I read that there was a big energy melee nerf -- how severe was it? Could an EM character with SOs/basic IOs tank effectively in groups / do solo missions at 0x4+ / solo EBs/AVs / pvp (lol)? I assume I could farm up several billion tickets with him if nothing else due to the fire aura secondary...
Ta' in advance,
-- Z.
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I think it was around I11. They decreased the stun mag of Total Focus (don't recall if that was only for Blasters or every AT though) and increased the animation time of Energy Transfer to an abysmal 2.67 seconds (used to be 1.0 seconds). EM went from a set with poor AoE but excellent single-target damage to... a set with poor AoE and subpar single-target damage. Your two highest-damage attacks are now locked up in long animations which means you're not going to be building Fury efficiently.|
Originally Posted by Zaphir
I read that there was a big energy melee nerf -- how severe was it? Could an EM character with SOs/basic IOs tank effectively in groups / do solo missions at 0x4+ / solo EBs/AVs / pvp (lol)? I assume I could farm up several billion tickets with him if nothing else due to the fire aura secondary...
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Honestly, EM is passable as a set but it's now outclassed by every other set out there. It used to be one of the only viable melee sets in PvP because of its unique ability to put out lots of damage really fast, but that's no longer the case. SS is the go-to set for that now.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I have two level 50 EM toons, a tank and a stalker. Both were made back when EM was a good set. Since it was nerfed, I have not played them at all. They're simply very weak toons now. Like mac said, the set went from being horrible at AoE but great at ST....to horrible at AoE and bad at ST. I still have yet to understand the logic behind that change.
I would definitely avoid EM at all costs.
I miss the old EM.
That said if you solo alot with the difficulty at least +0/x4 you will not have any trouble getting fury. If you plan on teaming make sure you have a very effective damage aura and avoid using TF and ET much. In fact, whirling hands is better to use in a team situation.
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And Whirling Hands is a pretty crappy power as far as melee PBAoEs go, so that's another testament to how screwed up this set now is.
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Originally Posted by Shocklust
In fact, whirling hands is better to use in a team situation.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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This probably the first thread about EM I have a seen in a while. Thats a testament about how EM is nowadays. Its like the set no one speaks about.|
Originally Posted by macskull
And Whirling Hands is a pretty crappy power as far as melee PBAoEs go, so that's another testament to how screwed up this set now is.
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I have a mid range EM brute that hasnt been played in at least 2 years. The looonnng animation kills it. Someone could kill your target before your attack finishes, which sucks.
I remember how awesome EM/Elec combination was.
I've been playing this game on-and-off since CoV launch. My main for most of that time was a EM/INV Brute. Since the nerfing, he's been pointless to play. And believe me, I've tried several multi-billion Inf builds to try and resuscitate him. Nothing makes the set worthwhile now compared to other primaries. Ask yourself when was the last time you saw anyone ingame running around with the pom poms of doom? The Devs really need to do something to restore this set. I don't care what they turn it into, but it needs a bit of the Energy Aura treatment.
It's a set that, if you've never had one before, and you make one now, you'll probably be okay with it. If you had one "back in the day" though...
Learn to love corpseblasting if you roll EM.
I still have my brute who is EM/Fire. I've played him after the nerfs, and it's nowhere near the same. I've actually run some of the incarnate content just to see how it went, and it's terrible.
I'm trying to decide on another brute (because I like the AT) but I'm not sure what to go with now.
Thanks all for the input. I messed around with my brute a bit, and... yeah. It's just... not there. My freakin' rad/sonic defender feels more efficient at killing stuff. Objectively it's not THAT bad, but I can't let go of the EM glory days 
I'll probably end up rerolling him into titan weapons when that set comes out. Leveling is a lot faster nowadays, so I won't be missing those 44 levels on him!
Thanks again,
-- Z.
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It was between i12 and i13, I had a guide for Stalker's EM called 'EM Guide for i12) and I remember editing the changes for Barrage, I think it was a bit before i13 actually because I put the changes but later I stopped caring about it because I had no idea how to edit the EM/Nin pvp build I'd posted (need for 900 kb IOs and etc) and if the pvp stuff I'd put in were still valid.|
Originally Posted by macskull
I think it was around I11. They decreased the stun mag of Total Focus (don't recall if that was only for Blasters or every AT though) and increased the animation time of Energy Transfer to an abysmal 2.67 seconds (used to be 1.0 seconds). EM went from a set with poor AoE but excellent single-target damage to... a set with poor AoE and subpar single-target damage. Your two highest-damage attacks are now locked up in long animations which means you're not going to be building Fury efficiently.
Honestly, EM is passable as a set but it's now outclassed by every other set out there. It used to be one of the only viable melee sets in PvP because of its unique ability to put out lots of damage really fast, but that's no longer the case. SS is the go-to set for that now. |
Oh and the change to TF was to everyone, which is sad since Seismic Smash animates in 1.67s (I think) an has a mag 4 hold.
Performance issues aside
Energy Transfer is still one of the coolest moves in the game. Gigantic orange numbers are always pleasing to see.
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There was another small set of changes after the TF/ET change which I think was just increasing the damage of Barrage (so now it deals more damage than Energy Punch). Just checked the Wiki, though, and you're right - patch was in July 2008, so a few months after I12 went live. Thought it was earlier than that...|
Originally Posted by Kioshi
It was between i12 and i13, I had a guide for Stalker's EM called 'EM Guide for i12) and I remember editing the changes for Barrage, I think it was a bit before i13 actually because I put the changes but later I stopped caring about it because I had no idea how to edit the EM/Nin pvp build I'd posted (need for 900 kb IOs and etc) and if the pvp stuff I'd put in were still valid.
Oh and the change to TF was to everyone, which is sad since Seismic Smash animates in 1.67s (I think) an has a mag 4 hold. |
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Originally Posted by TheProtector
Performance issues aside
Energy Transfer is still one of the coolest moves in the game. Gigantic orange numbers are always pleasing to see. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I've never had this experience of corpse blasting too much, so I can't say it's something I can really include in an argument. Yeah it happens, but it happens with every powerset. Just watch who you are attacking with what attack you are using. Energy Transfer is an awesome attack not fit for minions, throw it on LTs and Bosses and you are no longer corpse blasting. Bone Smasher and Barrage are both quick enough to use on enemies with less hp. This is just my experience though and obviously not the rest of the people responding.
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Originally Posted by macskull
Seems like more often than not you're staring at a corpse instead of gigantic orange numbers, though. Kind of loses some effect when your target dies before your power goes off.
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If every enemy type, from minion through to arch-villain, is dying in 3 seconds a brute might as well be using brawl for what he's contributing to the team.
I still use EM heavily on my most IO'd tanker and while the occasional corpse blast happens for the most part I've trained myself to not bother using ET or TF on anything less than a boss on a team.
That said, if we set the animation time threshold for corpse punching to 2.5 seconds or higher we find:
- battle axe has 2 - whirling axe, cleave
- claws has 2 - spin, eviscerate
- dark melee has 1 - shadow maul
- dual blades has 1 - thousand cuts
- electric melee has 2 - thunderstrike, lightning rod
- energy melee has 3 - whirling hands, energy transfer, total focus
- fire melee has 2 - breath of fire, fire sword circle
- kinetic melee has 2 - burst, concentrated strike (which doesn't have people saying 'skip it. You'll only punch corpses with it.')
- stone melee has 2 - throw boulder, tremor
- super strength has 1 - hurl
- war mace has 1 - whirling mace
- broad sword has 1 - whirling sword
- katana has 0 (the only set that has no animation time higher than 2 seconds)
- spines has 0 (only put here because I think that's kind of interesting as it also has a reputation for slowness)
What sets EM up as the slowest set is that most of those other slow powers don't get worked into attack chains (concentrated strike being a glaring exception, with cleave and thunderstrike being honorable mentions).
Personally, since I love ET's new animation, I'd like to see Total Focus' animation time reduced. I'll support the opinions presented here that at least one them should be.
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Take a look at your list. You're having a hard time naming anything other than AoEs, and you can't find any set with 2 ST attacks with 2.5+s animations other than EM. Now try to think about why people complain about corpseblasting. Do you believe we all are part of a secret conspiracy to slander the good name of Energy Melee, or is the more likely reason that having 2 long animating powers means one is going to spend a lot more time in long animations than with 1 long animating power?
The argument that one can just learn not to corpseblast doesn't work. If you don't bother using ET on TF on anything less than a boss, then you're using weaker attacks and not doing as much damage as your potential maximum. EM is barely on par with other strong primaries *if attacking at full speed*, (and ignoring ET's -hp). If you start to not use ET and TF, then you're doing lower damage ; it's irrelevant whether you corpseblast or not by this point, as the net result is still that you're weaker than you could be with another primary.
Additionally, and still, corpseblast is not a simple "yes or no" deal. If you deal 1000 damage with ET and by the time the power goes off, your target is down to 500 hit points, you've wasted half of your damage in overkill ; and, yet again, this isn't a binary thing: yes, other powersets can (and will) have overkill, the issue is that EM will have more of it.
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The logic behind the change was simple. Either Posi, BaBs, or Castle decided to try PVP. They promptly ate the double damage spike of AS and 1sec ET from a stalker. |
Originally Posted by Supermax
I have two level 50 EM toons, a tank and a stalker. Both were made back when EM was a good set. Since it was nerfed, I have not played them at all. They're simply very weak toons now. Like mac said, the set went from being horrible at AoE but great at ST....to horrible at AoE and bad at ST. I still have yet to understand the logic behind that change.
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BaBs and Castle then decided the power had been bugged and assigned an incorrect animation, since, you know, the four years at the time the game had been live, and BaB's throwed in some POS Snipe animation from a blaster set. Never mind the fact that the source of the problem wasn't ET, it was how the stalker functioned in PVP, which was later changed slightly as well. I dunno the specifics on that. I quit after the ET Nerf and swore I wouldn't resub while Castle and BaBs still worked on the title.
But yes. Don't bother with EM. It's a horrible set for the way the game is played now. And if you do, don't pair it with dark armor, because EM doesn't have enough mitigation to cover dark armor's lacking mitigation. (well, you can IO DA up to beast mode, but really, what armor set can you not do that on?)
A way to kill two birds with one stone would be to add a splash AoE component to one of the attacks, like Thunderstrike. Sure, it's pretty weak, but it's better than nothing and wouldn't be out of place thematically on either Total Focus or Energy Transfer.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
I think the problem at this point is that any meaningful changes to EM would probably just be better off placed in a new set. The one last hope EM has is that it gets some tweaks when it's proliferated to scrappers. If that ever even happens.
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Energy Melee powers notwithstanding, every power on that list except Concentrated Strike is either an AoE or a ranged attack, and Concentrated Strike doesn't have a "skip this!" vibe because it does something useful - in the case of Scrappers and Stalkers, it'll instantly recharge Power Siphon or Build Up when it crits (and it also doesn't do self-damage).|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
That said, if we set the animation time threshold for corpse punching to 2.5 seconds or higher we find:
- battle axe has 2 - whirling axe, cleave - claws has 2 - spin, eviscerate - dark melee has 1 - shadow maul - dual blades has 1 - thousand cuts - electric melee has 2 - thunderstrike, lightning rod - energy melee has 3 - whirling hands, energy transfer, total focus - fire melee has 2 - breath of fire, fire sword circle - kinetic melee has 2 - burst, concentrated strike (which doesn't have people saying 'skip it. You'll only punch corpses with it.') - stone melee has 2 - throw boulder, tremor - super strength has 1 - hurl - war mace has 1 - whirling mace - broad sword has 1 - whirling sword - katana has 0 (the only set that has no animation time higher than 2 seconds) - spines has 0 (only put here because I think that's kind of interesting as it also has a reputation for slowness) What sets EM up as the slowest set is that most of those other slow powers don't get worked into attack chains (concentrated strike being a glaring exception, with cleave and thunderstrike being honorable mentions). |
At least with the other powers on that list you're probably going to hit multiple targets which makes using the power worthwhile, or in the case of ranged attacks it's a great way to tag a runner without having to chase it. That leaves Energy Melee as the only melee set with two melee single-target attacks with such long animations, which wouldn't be such an issue if the rest of the set had anything to offer. Old EM was good at one thing, and one thing only - really high burst damage. New EM doesn't do that, and didn't get anything back to compensate for the loss of that burst ability.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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The average PvP Stalker these days acts as a Blaster with hide, spamming sharks and hoping for a kill because they don't know how to AS even though it's really easy with the mez changes and travel suppression. That combined with diminishing returns on damage and free global resistance for squishies mean a solo stalker is very rarely a threat.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
Never mind the fact that the source of the problem wasn't ET, it was how the stalker functioned in PVP, which was later changed slightly as well. I dunno the specifics on that.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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The changes were first proposed on a memo from then-dogsbody-Castle to Geko, before PVP existed.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
The logic behind the change was simple. Either Posi, BaBs, or Castle decided to try PVP. They promptly ate the double damage spike of AS and 1sec ET from a stalker.
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As you were.
Since Scrappers dont get it and I havent run it yet on a Brute I was thinkn of using it. How is Energy Melee on a Brute? What's a good secondary? I was thinking Dark but there are so many powers I just don't know if a build is viable. Same goes for Invulnerability except I am so foreign to it. I also hought /Fire but I have that on so many other ATs. Maybe Elec? Anywho any advice is welcome!