Good question...
Nullify/Soothe Pain = Warmth/Cauterize
Power of Phoenix ~ Conduit of Pain
Enforced Morale ~ Thaw
So 4/9 powers are, for practical purposes, duplicates. What's left is
Share Pain, Suppress Pain, World of Pain, Anguishing Cry, Painbringer
vs
Fire Shield, Plasma Shield, Forge, Heat Exhaustion, Melt Armor
In other words - a big ally/pet heal, a pbaoe +regen power, a pbaoe +res +tohit +dmg power, a pbaoe -def -res power and a "turn one ally/pet into unkillable engine of destruction" +regen +rec +dmg power
vs
+Resist shields (let's call them aoe), a +tohit +dmg buff for 1 to n allies/pets, a great ST debuff, an aoe -def - res power.
Let's see what we get for buffs (all #s unenhanced):
Resists: 15% for everyone but you with Thermal. 11.25% for everyone including you with PD
To-Hit: 15% for 1 to 5 (depending on recharge and your diligence) allies/pets with Thermal, 7.5% for everyone including you with PD
Dmg: 30% for 1 to 5 (depending on recharge and your diligence) allies/pets with Thermal, 12% for everyone including you with PD. One lucky someone gets a 37.5 dmg buff from PD.
Regen: PD has the only regen buffs, one pbaoe, one for 1 ally/pet
Who wins that battle? I think the more entities there are to buff then PD starts to surge ahead. If you're going to be a strict soloer and micromanage Forge, then maybe Thermal wins the buff battle.
Let's look at debuffs:
Pain Dom only gets a -res/-def (-22.5% for both)pbaoe debuff on a 120 second timer with a 30 second duration.
Thermal gets a -15% def / -22.5% resist ranged aoe debuff on a 150 second timer and 40 second duration. Additionally, Thermal gets a great ST debuff for -dmg and -regen.
Thermal would have to be declared the debuff winner
Overall, it looks pretty even to me, in the grand scheme of things. Once upon a time I would have said Thermal was superior to PD but after playing a PD Corr (as well as a MM) to 50, I've changed my tune. After all this, I'm not going to wrap things up with a tidy "the winner is..." conclusion because I don't think there is one.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
On an MM, I'd probably lean toward Thermal. Your attacks aren't as beneficial to team success as a Corruptor's (your pets handle that semi-autonomously), so you can budget more time for buffing/debuffing. I also like the ranged nature of the buffs/debuffs for keeping the MM out of the fray.
Thermal, no further investigation needed.
That is unless you love spending time recasting your pets. Then go pain.
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Had the original question been about soley the secondaries, this would be a great analysis. However, being paired with demons, thermal wins hands down. The reason is the stacked resists. Adding resistance to a set with already good resists will make them all mini tanks. Keep them all healed up and most of them damage buffed, and they're all mini tankmages now. And thermal destroys PD when it comes to AV fights. That regen debuff is golden.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Good question...
Nullify/Soothe Pain = Warmth/Cauterize Power of Phoenix ~ Conduit of Pain Enforced Morale ~ Thaw So 4/9 powers are, for practical purposes, duplicates. What's left is Share Pain, Suppress Pain, World of Pain, Anguishing Cry, Painbringer vs Fire Shield, Plasma Shield, Forge, Heat Exhaustion, Melt Armor In other words - a big ally/pet heal, a pbaoe +regen power, a pbaoe +res +tohit +dmg power, a pbaoe -def -res power and a "turn one ally/pet into unkillable engine of destruction" +regen +rec +dmg power vs +Resist shields (let's call them aoe), a +tohit +dmg buff for 1 to n allies/pets, a great ST debuff, an aoe -def - res power. Let's see what we get for buffs (all #s unenhanced): Resists: 15% for everyone but you with Thermal. 11.25% for everyone including you with PD To-Hit: 15% for 1 to 5 (depending on recharge and your diligence) allies/pets with Thermal, 7.5% for everyone including you with PD Dmg: 30% for 1 to 5 (depending on recharge and your diligence) allies/pets with Thermal, 12% for everyone including you with PD. One lucky someone gets a 37.5 dmg buff from PD. Regen: PD has the only regen buffs, one pbaoe, one for 1 ally/pet Who wins that battle? I think the more entities there are to buff then PD starts to surge ahead. If you're going to be a strict soloer and micromanage Forge, then maybe Thermal wins the buff battle. Let's look at debuffs: Pain Dom only gets a -res/-def (-22.5% for both)pbaoe debuff on a 120 second timer with a 30 second duration. Thermal gets a -15% def / -22.5% resist ranged aoe debuff on a 150 second timer and 40 second duration. Additionally, Thermal gets a great ST debuff for -dmg and -regen. Thermal would have to be declared the debuff winner Overall, it looks pretty even to me, in the grand scheme of things. Once upon a time I would have said Thermal was superior to PD but after playing a PD Corr (as well as a MM) to 50, I've changed my tune. After all this, I'm not going to wrap things up with a tidy "the winner is..." conclusion because I don't think there is one. |
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If you're recasting pets for PD more than with Thermal, then L2PD (learn to Pain Dom).|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Toy_Guy
Thermal, no further investigation needed.
That is unless you love spending time recasting your pets. Then go pain. |
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| However, being paired with demons, thermal wins hands down. The reason is the stacked resists |
But hey, let's do consider that these are Demons. DS is the rare MM primary where the attacks are worth taking and using. In that case the synergy advantage goes to PD since there are several self buffing powers in the set, to help the whip attacks hit more frequently and harder.
I won't even get into the tankerminding possibilities with PD, which are FAR superior to Thermal. Thermal offers nothing but the pbaoe heal for self-protection, PD offers resists, regen and the same heal Thermal has. PD can stack resists from epics and tough (with no resist slotting for tough) to hard cap s/l with 63% energy resists with 18% to everything else, including Psi with a big regen buff as the cherry on top.
Like I said originally though, Thermal does have better AV handling tools.
Thermal wins hands down? Hardly.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
When demons first came out I was torn between thermal and pain dom. This was back when thermal buffs were still single target casts. This + forging every pet as soon as it was recharged felt like it was Force Field ALL OVER AGAIN. so i decided to really number crunch pain dom to see HOW inferior it was to thermal. Honestly deacon nailed it, Its resistance is A MINISCULE diff to thermal a whooping 5-6% ED capped but atleast pain also offers a psi resist.
Next reason I choose pain was the fact I wanted to use my whip attacks more often and since world of pain was back then a set it and forget it buff, pain dom won again.
Finally I HATED how the damn demon prince needed END redux IOs and so i just go lazy and perma painbringer him so that I can maximize the slow, dmg, acc, and procs on him instead of end redux.
Oh and here is my demons/pain vs AVs. No -regen at all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYsVEzS9jrU
That was a pretty cool video.
I still think even though pain might have some perks. Thermal is a much smoother ride, with thermal you don't have to worry about getting a ton of recharge to perma your shields. Also if you miss a pet because they ran out of range, guess what you can cast your shield again seconds later.
If you pets eat it during a battle you can get them back up and shielded again with out delay. With pain you are limited to the recharge of World of Pain, which is going to require set bonuses and six slots before it can be made perma. So don't expect perma World of Pain to early in your build.
I think these are the two sets that have the best synergy with demons without a doubt, and they are both really really good.
Thermal is defiantly an easier ride, while I think world of pain is just as good as the shields in the long run(the rest to psi makes up for the less res IMO), it takes some work to be perma, requiring an IO build, an likely a spiritual alpha(but a spiritual core paragon is about the best alpha you could pair with pain dom). On the other hand, I think it's a little easier getting some of the other abilities in pain dom perma, so maybe that balances out.
I got a ds/pain to 50 and I certainly was not constantly recasting my pets. Ember Demon does a great job of assisting with the healing (and the resist aura helps of course) you can't go wrong with either set it just comes down to personal preference.
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Awesome video! For comparison sake, do you have your build posted anywhere? If not, would you be willing to share? Looks like your were using Tier4 Musc/Reactive?|
Originally Posted by Vinceq1980
When demons first came out I was torn between thermal and pain dom. This was back when thermal buffs were still single target casts. This + forging every pet as soon as it was recharged felt like it was Force Field ALL OVER AGAIN. so i decided to really number crunch pain dom to see HOW inferior it was to thermal. Honestly deacon nailed it, Its resistance is A MINISCULE diff to thermal a whooping 5-6% ED capped but atleast pain also offers a psi resist.
Next reason I choose pain was the fact I wanted to use my whip attacks more often and since world of pain was back then a set it and forget it buff, pain dom won again. Finally I HATED how the damn demon prince needed END redux IOs and so i just go lazy and perma painbringer him so that I can maximize the slow, dmg, acc, and procs on him instead of end redux. Oh and here is my demons/pain vs AVs. No -regen at all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYsVEzS9jrU |
Edit: Saw the info at the end of the video, still wouldn't mind seeing the mids though. xP
Xor
Yeah I only attempted that after I got tier 4 musculature and tier 4 radial. Honestly my demons/pain was def on the back burner b/c the set hadnt clicked with me yet. One day I just decided to go ahead and run trials back to back until I had atleast tier 3 everything and thats when I finally saw just how good the demons are by themselves. Here is a link to my build. 1 purple set(not too expensive can always get stupefy), and I just used my astrals and hero merits for all the lotgs and numina/miracle proc.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.951
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Pain Domination
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Summon Demonlings -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg:50(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg:50(5), SvgnRt-PetResDam:50(5)
Level 1: Nullify Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(7), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(9)
Level 2: Soothe -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(11), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(13)
Level 4: Lash -- KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB:50(A), KinCrsh-Rchg/KB:50(21), KinCrsh-Rechg/EndRdx:50(21), KinCrsh-Acc/KB:50(50), KinCrsh-Dmg/KB:50(50), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB:50(50)
Level 6: Grant Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(19), RechRdx-I:50(19)
Level 10: Conduit of Pain -- P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(39)
Level 12: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 14: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 16: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 18: Enchant Demon -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 20: Suppress Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(23), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(25), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25)
Level 22: Summon Demons -- HO:Nucle(A), HO:Nucle(27), HO:Centri(27), HO:Golgi(29), HO:Golgi(29), S'bndAl-Build%:50(48)
Level 24: Crack Whip -- Posi-Dam%:50(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(31), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(33), ExStrk-Dam%:20(33)
Level 26: Summon Demon Prince -- TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow:50(A), TmpRdns-Dmg/Slow:50(33), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx:50(34), HO:Centri(34), HO:Nucle(34), ImpSwft-Dam%:30(36)
Level 28: World of Pain -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(36), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(36), ImpArm-ResDam:40(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(37), GSFC-ToHit:50(37)
Level 30: Hell on Earth -- ExRmnt-+Res(Pets):50(A), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg:50(40), RechRdx-I:50(40)
Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 35: Anguishing Cry -- Acc-I:50(A), UndDef-Rchg:50(40), UndDef-Rchg/EndRdx:50(42), UndDef-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx:50(42), Achilles-ResDeb%:20(42)
Level 38: Painbringer -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(43), Dct'dW-Heal:50(43), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(45)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(45), ImpArm-ResDam:40(45), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(46)
Level 44: Oppressive Gloom -- Amaze-EndRdx/Stun:50(A), Amaze-ToHitDeb%:50(46), Amaze-Stun/Rchg:50(46), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(48), Amaze-Acc/Rchg:50(48)
Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 0: Marshal
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(15), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(17), P'Shift-EndMod:50(17)
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...C6FF00DCE9EE88
Do you have to do tips to go from hero to Villian to get that mastery or does demon get it from the start or do you just start in Going Rogue and you get it all?
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Very nice analysis Deacon. I would add one thing (unless I just missed it) in favor of pain. That is the damage buff you receive for Share Pain. With Demons, you will probably take some, if not all, of the whip powers. If you use share pain, the damage gets a 18.75% boost. You do have a -100% regen with it though, so you will have your regen at approx 400% instead of 500% for 15 sec. Minor, maybe, but still another factor to consider.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
If you're recasting pets for PD more than with Thermal, then L2PD (learn to Pain Dom).
Right, like Pain Dom has too. In my post, I provide the numerical difference between the res shields in Thermal and World of Pain. That number is *drum roll* 3.75%. Let's enhance to ED cap and call that 6%. So the first poster I quoted thinks PD is "spending time recasting your pets" because of a 6% differnence in most resists. WoP has psi, Thermal does not. Oh yeah, PD has a regen aura. Someone else can do the math of Resists + 6% with respect to Resists + regen aura (not to mention the big heal). But hey, let's do consider that these are Demons. DS is the rare MM primary where the attacks are worth taking and using. In that case the synergy advantage goes to PD since there are several self buffing powers in the set, to help the whip attacks hit more frequently and harder. I won't even get into the tankerminding possibilities with PD, which are FAR superior to Thermal. Thermal offers nothing but the pbaoe heal for self-protection, PD offers resists, regen and the same heal Thermal has. PD can stack resists from epics and tough (with no resist slotting for tough) to hard cap s/l with 63% energy resists with 18% to everything else, including Psi with a big regen buff as the cherry on top. Like I said originally though, Thermal does have better AV handling tools. Thermal wins hands down? Hardly. |
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It's a Patron Pool so at some point once you reach level 35 you will need to be a Villain/Rogue and run a patron story arc.
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Originally Posted by NetBlaise1
Do you have to do tips to go from hero to Villian to get that mastery or does demon get it from the start or do you just start in Going Rogue and you get it all?
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At the rate that the devs are adding auto-hit damage to the game, it may also be worth considering that as long as they don't catch aggro or stand in the middle of AoEs, a /PD with pets on bodyguard can spam Share Pain as fast as it recharges -- which should be fairly quick, since you'll want global recharge to perma World of Pain. It's not as high a heal as an Empathy defender or even an Empathy controller or Pain corruptor (not quite), but still useful under the right circumstances. Also, Painbringer with a single endmod or a couple of frankenslotted endmod/rech can power through ranged nuke crashes.
My personal experience with the two sets is that /Thermal has the slight edge in soloing hard targets with Heat Exhaustion and the higher values on Forge vs WoP, but requires much more micromanagement to do so. On (edit for clarity: ) soloing everything else, I find them about even, with Pain's regen making swarms of minions a bit less worrying survival-wise. /Pain Domination has the slight edge in groups and leagues, the bigger the better, because World of Pain and Suppress Pain get better the more people they hit and the set has a couple of tools that are only duplicated in one other set to my knowledge (and that one is not available to MMs). Debuffs are also less important in a group that is steamrolling without them.
YMMV, of course.
Thoughts, comments?