It's ok, a relatively quick TF dealing with a Sky Raider/Praetorian threat to the US Navy. While it isn't one of my favorite TF's I've done it several times and it isn't bad by any means.
You start by clearing the Raiders and a group of WarWalkers from a group of Navy cruisers, then go on to defeat an offshore invasion. Typically it will take ~45 minutes on average to complete, less if you speed it and more if you take your time and kill all.
I believe it came in with the Going Rogue (issue 18) release.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
It came with Issue 20, same time as it's redside counterpart Mortimer Kal.
To me personally it feels like a rehash of the Apex Task Force for lower levels. It starts with a shiny new map, but then it's like they realized they couldn't have a one-map TF and so just cribbed from what was already in game.
I'd suggest not doing it at level 20 unless you have other higher level players on the team. There's some difficult fights in there. But your experiences may differ. It's been solo'd, and the final boss has been killed with just a rock. So it certainly is doable with a team of 20s.
It has game lore problems in that it occurs concurrent with the Praetorian Invasion, which then doesn't start until you hit the 40s for characters not created in Praetoria. So if you run it early you will take part in defeating an invasion that hasn't happened for that character yet. I remain optimistic that someday that will be fixed through other content. There's also the whole, "why did I need incarnate powers to defeat the same people I could beat at level 20," problem with the later incarnate missions.
I think my biggest dislike about the Sutter TF is that it came out at the same time as Morty Kal. Morty Kal is more fun, has better writing, and a much better reward. It's inevitable because of the release timing that the two get compared and Morty Kal wins by a mile.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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You don't fight anyone with Incarnate-level power in Sutter, you do in Apex/the trials/etc.
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Originally Posted by Oldeb
It has game lore problems in that it occurs concurrent with the Praetorian Invasion, which then doesn't start until you hit the 40s for characters not created in Praetoria. So if you run it early you will take part in defeating an invasion that hasn't happened for that character yet. I remain optimistic that someday that will be fixed through other content. There's also the whole, "why did I need incarnate powers to defeat the same people I could beat at level 20," problem with the later incarnate missions.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Huh? If you'd care to point out where else the Wrecked Skyway City map and the combo Talos -> Sewers map show up, I'd appreciate it.|
Originally Posted by Oldeb
To me personally it feels like a rehash of the Apex Task Force for lower levels. It starts with a shiny new map, but then it's like they realized they couldn't have a one-map TF and so just cribbed from what was already in game.
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As for being unpopular, I don't buy it. It's longer than Kal but really that's the only knock it has against it. It's a fun story with fun fights, much more interesting than the ones in Mortimer Kal.
Whenever I've run it, people have had a blast. Even the time I did it on a nearly all melee team and we had 65 deaths.
Anyone who ever wants to run one get in touch with me ingame and I'm down.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Huh again?|
Originally Posted by Oldeb
It has game lore problems in that it occurs concurrent with the Praetorian Invasion, which then doesn't start until you hit the 40s for characters not created in Praetoria. So if you run it early you will take part in defeating an invasion that hasn't happened for that character yet. I remain optimistic that someday that will be fixed through other content. There's also the whole, "why did I need incarnate powers to defeat the same people I could beat at level 20," problem with the later incarnate missions.
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It's pretty safe to say that the Praetorian invasion applies to characters sub 40 in this TF and it's not a contradiction to any other content, so I'm not sure what your gripe is. Praetorians come to Primal Earth at 20, and these TFs start at 20. It's an expansion of the story not something that trumps things that happen later.
Besides, look at the foes in Sutter: A Primal Sky Raider AV, 2 Praetorian nobodies, 2 Praetorian alternates for Primal Heroes, and both versions of Col. Duray. All are foes designed for that level range.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Except for the IDF, who are level 54 otherwise and hit you with an additional -4 levels debuff if you aren't incarnate. They curbstomped the Freedom Phalanx (except for Statesman) without any Praetor help according to Apex at the start of his Task Force.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
You don't fight anyone with Incarnate-level power in Sutter, you do in Apex/the trials/etc.
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Yes, I'm sure you can come up with a handwave reason why they didn't turn on their incarnate power for Sutter. I'm not really interested, since there is no canon explaination for it yet. Like I said, I remain optimistic that someday it'll be explained. But then I feel that tying Incarnates to Praetorian content was a massive mistake, lore-wise. The goatee universe just allows for too many comparisons of power levels. They would have been better off using something else. Unfortunately that ship sailed years ago.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Huh? If you'd care to point out where else the Wrecked Skyway City map and the combo Talos -> Sewers map show up, I'd appreciate it.
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Look, I'm not saying that anyone is wrong for enjoying the Sutter TF. I'm not saying people shouldn't play it. By all means if it works for you go nuts. Run it like crazy. It's just that I, individually, have absolutely no desire to ever run it again.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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Who needs a handwave explanation? You yourself brought up the explanation within the Apex TF, why be so quick to forget the text within Tin Mage II?|
Originally Posted by Oldeb
Yes, I'm sure you can come up with a handwave reason why they didn't turn on their incarnate power for Sutter. I'm not really interested, since there is no canon explaination for it yet. Like I said, I remain optimistic that someday it'll be explained. But then I feel that tying Incarnates to Praetorian content was a massive mistake, lore-wise. The goatee universe just allows for too many comparisons of power levels. They would have been better off using something else. Unfortunately that ship sailed years ago.
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| You have all done an upstanding job at defending Primal Earth from the Praetorian Invasion. Halting the force within Neutropolis will allow us to more easily handle the current forces that are within Primal Earth. If that army were to have marched through, Atlas Park and Grandville would have been overwhelmed by the sheer number of Clockwork, War Works, PPD, IDF, and Powers Division members. We still have a long way to go before this war is over with Praetoria, but we have pushed back their initial forces. As I understand, there are some other incursions by the Praetorians throughout Paragon City. |
The only time there's a logical pretzel would be when someone exemps down and tries to justify the lower level TF as a linear part of their personal timeline.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Originally Posted by Oldeb
Except for the IDF, who are level 54 otherwise and hit you with an additional -4 levels debuff if you aren't incarnate. They curbstomped the Freedom Phalanx (except for Statesman) without any Praetor help according to Apex at the start of his Task Force.
From Paragon Wiki...
Emperor Cole's Incarnate Control -Combat Levels
Emperor Cole's control over the forces of the Incarnate are preventing every hero, villain or in-between from utilizing their full strength. This is effectively causing you to fight at four combat levels lower than you actually are. Only those who have embarked on the path of the Incarnate and are utilizing an Alpha Incarnate ability are immune to the effect and fight at full strength.
Its not the IDF that zap your levels its Cole.
As far as the IDF at a lower level then we've run into them previously... So? Are there are other enemy groups that are only 1 level all the time?
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No... See the Sutter TF comes first. It's the lower level. The game lore is not designed so that characters of one level are working concurrently with characters of another. The whole game lore is written so that as one character progresses through contacts they learn more and more about the world. It's why not everyone knows that the Lost are turning into Rikti, what the Rikti really are, and that Crey is evil.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Once you beat the portal, things are easier for everything else. Sutter and whatever other invasion related attacks they come up with can be handled by less powerful heroes. So the big 50+ heroes take out the prime threat, then others work on mop up while those big heroes go on to counter attack (in Incarnate Trials).
The only time there's a logical pretzel would be when someone exemps down and tries to justify the lower level TF as a linear part of their personal timeline. |
Lets start with a basic Prime Earth hero. In the Sutter TF you learn that we've always been at war with Eastasia, er... Praetoria, and they've raided Sutter's fleet. At level 20 this is going to be the first time you've heard of Praetoria.
Once you are an Incarnate, you fend off the Apex invasion. Apex tells you Preatoria is invading and acts like this is a new thing, despite you having been at war with them 30 levels ago. Furthermore the souvenir raises the question that Battle Maiden kicked off the invasion early, which makes no sense since we've always been at war with them.
"One thing stuck out to you during the fight with Battle Maiden; she mentioned that Provost Marchand was too 'weak-willed' to start the invasion, hinting that perhaps this invasion was done against his orders."
In Tin Mage II you take the fight to Praetoria for the first time and according to the souvenir, "...putting a halt to the Praetorians' initial invasion plans. The war may not be over, but now Cole knows there are forces in Primal Earth that he can't easily swat down."
Then you go on to raid Praetoria some more in the Incarnate trials.
So how were the events of Apex/Tin Mage II the initial invasion plans if I've fought them through one TF and two story arcs previously?
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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Yes, and the reason he doesn't for the Sutter invasion is because, what? He just didn't feel like it? He didn't consider Earth Prime a threat until the Apex TF? Which, again, happened either before or relatively close to the Sutter TF in timing. If it's as Lemur Lad says and after the Apex/Tin Mage II, why would he send troops he knows will get slaughtered?|
Originally Posted by Starwinds
Its not the IDF that zap your levels its Cole.
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| As far as the IDF at a lower level then we've run into them previously... So? Are there are other enemy groups that are only 1 level all the time? |
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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For the record, the second map you mentioned (or at least one very much like it) also appears in Roy Cooling's arc.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Huh? If you'd care to point out where else the Wrecked Skyway City map and the combo Talos -> Sewers map show up, I'd appreciate it.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Because the only content that worked/works that way was the initial hero content. They've not tried to stick to that in content that's come since. Most game content from the revisions of Faultline and RWZ onward has admitted to the existence of higher level characters doing bigger things, at least tacitly.|
Originally Posted by Oldeb
No... See the Sutter TF comes first. It's the lower level. The game lore is not designed so that characters of one level are working concurrently with characters of another. The whole game lore is written so that as one character progresses through contacts they learn more and more about the world. It's why not everyone knows that the Lost are turning into Rikti, what the Rikti really are, and that Crey is evil.
... So how were the events of Apex/Tin Mage II the initial invasion plans if I've fought them through one TF and two story arcs previously? |
If in your characters personal timeline you happen to do Tin Mage last, you simply have to address that in your head and accept that the events of Tin Mage, Sutter, Apex, and the Incarnate Trials are largely simultaneous.
They can control the order they add things and write as if later things happen after earlier things, but they can't control the order people run them. That's not the fault of the content, as they've done their best to move away from a strict linear character timeline that was a big downfall of the original Hero content.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Completely different section of Talos. Cooling uses the Mayhem/Safeguard map. Sutter uses a section of Talos I've not seen used elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
For the record, the second map you mentioned (or at least one very much like it) also appears in Roy Cooling's arc.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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....other than Talos Island, I presume. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Completely different section of Talos. Cooling uses the Mayhem/Safeguard map. Sutter uses a section of Talos I've not seen used elsewhere.
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my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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The fact that I've only run that awful TF a couple of times explains why I couldn't recall it as being any different than the Cooling map (I honestly don't even remember a mission taking place in Talos).
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Completely different section of Talos. Cooling uses the Mayhem/Safeguard map. Sutter uses a section of Talos I've not seen used elsewhere.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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What, exactly, is non-linear about Jim Tremblor -> Penelope Yin -> Doc Delilah -> Agent G?|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Because the only content that worked/works that way was the initial hero content. They've not tried to stick to that in content that's come since. Most game content from the revisions of Faultline and RWZ onward has admitted to the existence of higher level characters doing bigger things, at least tacitly.
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That's the order they progress and they tell a story start to finish. There's nothing odd about their timeline.
The same with Levantera -> Serpent Drummer -> Gaussian -> Dark Watcher -> Lady Grey.
Each introduces the other in turn.
That is not what happens with the Sutter TF. Its placement is out of order with its story. To get the first part of the story you need to advance in level and unlock the alpha incarnate power, even though you've already completed the ending.
That there are higher level characters doing bigger things is a strawman. It's implicit to the setting. Similarly with lower level characters doing things that are beneath you. And yes, with sidekicking and the leveling rate it's very possible to jump around and miss contacts or parts of the story. It's even the expected path.
But, with the exception of the Sutter TF, the content is all written such that if you did shut off XP and play each contact as they are introduced by level range you move linearly through the metastory of CoX.
Every character in this game, whether hero, villain, or praetorian, is at once the main character of the entire CoX world and a bit player as perceived by everyone else. Even when I think they've done a terrible job at writing the story (and I don't think that Sutter is the worst in that regard), the developers have kept that central to the design of the game. With this one exception.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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Those are hazard zones and they were scripted to be linear in this fashion. Task Forces and arc vs arc stories are not linear with each other across levels in the same way.|
Originally Posted by Oldeb
What, exactly, is non-linear about Jim Tremblor -> Penelope Yin -> Doc Delilah -> Agent G?
That's the order they progress and they tell a story start to finish. There's nothing odd about their timeline. The same with Levantera -> Serpent Drummer -> Gaussian -> Dark Watcher -> Lady Grey. Each introduces the other in turn. |
Sutter is not the only example of this.
Another example is found in the Rikti War itself. Redside you can fight Ajax at level 20. But until you do the Lady Grey taskforce at 45 in your personal timeline the way you (and only you) define it, Omega Team was a complete wipe all of them even Hero 1 are dead. Only in the Lady Grey taskforce do you personally meet survivors of the Omega Team when the Rikti manage to re-open the door to their homeworld. Clearly the Devs do not consider the level 20 arc to be "before" the level 45 arc.
Technically, ALL praetorian content is introduced per story arc with the Portal Corps missions in the 45s. In those arcs Praetoria is found for the first time, Antimatter is still a Praetor, and Statesman hasn't yet been captured. Sutter and Apex and all Incarnate stories obviously happen AFTER Statesman is captured, then freed by someone at level 50, then Cole goes ******* crazy and draws power from the well and invades.
The stories are not linear by level. they are linear by story content. Some stories get introduced in a certain level range, yes, but not all. Some overlap.
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| But, with the exception of the Sutter TF, the content is all written such that if you did shut off XP and play each contact as they are introduced by level range you move linearly through the metastory of CoX. |
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| Every character in this game, whether hero, villain, or praetorian, is at once the main character of the entire CoX world and a bit player as perceived by everyone else. Even when I think they've done a terrible job at writing the story (and I don't think that Sutter is the worst in that regard), the developers have kept that central to the design of the game. With this one exception. |
Edit, just thought of another: The "new" cape mission hero side. The time capsule is opened and it is set post lady grey task force. Compared to the old cape mission where it hadn't been opened. The plot of the attacks changes as well. So at least four exceptions.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Omega team was never a complete wipe. Ajax always survived. He never entered the portal at all. There's no contradiction in MacArthur's arc. If Glacia, Inferia, or Hero 1 showed up, that would be a problem.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Another example is found in the Rikti War itself. Redside you can fight Ajax at level 20. But until you do the Lady Grey taskforce at 45 in your personal timeline the way you (and only you) define it, Omega Team was a complete wipe all of them even Hero 1 are dead.
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| Technically, ALL praetorian content is introduced per story arc with the Portal Corps missions in the 45s. In those arcs Praetoria is found for the first time, Antimatter is still a Praetor, and Statesman hasn't yet been captured. |
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| Sutter and Apex and all Incarnate stories obviously happen AFTER Statesman is captured, then freed by someone at level 50, then Cole goes ******* crazy and draws power from the well and invades. |
Nothing in that timeline goes against anything else, except for the Sutter content.
Even a Praetorian turned hero won't encounter anything odd. They knew Praetoria was planning an invasion in the level 1-20 content. Now they see it take shape in the 40-45, 45-50, and 50+ content.
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| At least three exceptions. possibly more. |
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
It's a fun TF, but it's in the wrong level range - 20-40 doesn't fit with the rest of the Praetorian storyline.
At 45-50, players learn about the Praetorian AVs through Maria Jenkins and Tina Macintyre - and their stories are set before the invasion begins, even though they start 5 levels after Admiral Sutter.
Following the 45-50 arcs, the invasion begins with the Apex and Tin Mage TFs, and then the storyline continues in the Incarnate Trials as Primal Earth hits back against Tyrant and the loyalists.
And not only is Admiral Sutter out of sync with the high level Praetorian storyline, it also stamps all over the Paretorian exit missions at 20 - for example, a responsibility loyalist will hear Provost Marchand tell them that going to Primal Earth could be the best way of stopping the dimensional war - but with Admiral Sutter starting at 20, it's quite possible that players could be fighting the invasion only a few seconds after agreeing to try and stop it.
Admiral Sutter should either be 45-50, or an Incarnate TF.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Four words: wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. Maybe another four: big ball of stuff.
Yep, that works for me.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Sorry, missed this the first time.
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There's no mention of Lady Grey or the Vanguard at all during the hero cape mission. It was opened because it was the seven year anniversary of the Omega Team's sacrifice. In fact the City Representative is suprised and puzzled as to why the Rikti would be interested in Hero 1's letter.| Edit, just thought of another: The "new" cape mission hero side. The time capsule is opened and it is set post lady grey task force. Compared to the old cape mission where it hadn't been opened. The plot of the attacks changes as well. So at least four exceptions. |
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
As do other parts of the Praetorian story. fighting Protean both hero and villain side for instance, happens in the 20s but is part of the praetorian war that doesn't "start" until level 45.
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Jenni Adair... I'll concede. She does tell you that he's planning an invasion with the help of someone in Praetoria. It's still an awkward tie-in because it's completely unlike anything else done by Praetoria, but it's there.
If Admiral Sutter is somehow aware of the world's shortest invasion in Adair's arc then it makes sense that he'd expect Praetoria's arrival at his fleet as a an invasion attempt. Which is then defeated by the heroes.
Apex and the incarnate content then becomes Invasion II. This make Tina rather nonchalant about discovering Praetorian activity and Apex out to be an idiot for being suprised, but it would make the timeline work. It also explains why the Freedom Phalanx got it's collective butt kicked, they expected a repeat of Sutter.
Protean's invasion becomes the Assassination of Ferdinand with Sutter as the invasion of Belgium.
Later Apex becomes the invasion of Poland and the start of an entirely new war.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Four words: wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. Maybe another four: big ball of stuff.
Yep, that works for me. |
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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REALLY??? I guess I IMAGINED running a level 50 character with lower level characters SIDEKICKED. And don't even try to tell us that sidekicks are part of the mechanics and not the lore. The Vindicators are mostly sidekicks of the main heroes.
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Originally Posted by Oldeb
No... See the Sutter TF comes first. It's the lower level. The game lore is not designed so that characters of one level are working concurrently with characters of another.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's a fun TF, but it's in the wrong level range - 20-40 doesn't fit with the rest of the Praetorian storyline.
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Sure, if you ignore the 1-20 levels in Praetoria.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
What is this Task Force?
I've seen only a little about it. IIRC, it starts in Independence Port, has something to do with the Sky Raiders, and it seems to be unpopular.
I looked it up on the Wiki and had no recollection of it. When was it introduced? What are your opinions about it?
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.