Enough recharge to run the best attack chain possible, and then damage bonuses/health bonuses/regen.
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I would slot for more Rech, HP and +Damage.
In that order.
Building for 59% defense on my SRs has yielded better results for survivability than any other approach I've tried, even for normal content. The amount of enemies with significant defense debuffs or tohit buffs is often underestimated on the boards, and capped DDR is often overestimated. Getting hit by -100% def, which can happen on +4/x8 solo missions against certain factions, still turns out to be -5% def with 95% DDR, and if you're barely at 45%, 46%, 47% def, the drop in survivability is sharp.
Max HP is also good, you should get much of it naturally while building for other things though.
I wouldn't build for regen (beyond slotting the unique procs and enhancing Health properly) these days as Rebirth gives so much of it.
There isn't many options for resistance, outside of Tough, which you should have enhanced and toggled on, and the Shield Wall +3 res.
The psi "hole" isn't worth building against, it's a mere few illusion/mind control powers.
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Where are you getting hit for -100% from? Thats insane. I've never seen anything like that. Granted I haven't played at +4x8 on anything but my Fire farmer in AE in a very long time.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Building for 59% defense on my SRs has yielded better results for survivability than any other approach I've tried, even for normal content. The amount of enemies with significant defense debuffs or tohit buffs is often underestimated on the boards, and capped DDR is often overestimated. Getting hit by -100% def, which can happen on +4/x8 solo missions against certain factions, still turns out to be -5% def with 95% DDR, and if you're barely at 45%, 46%, 47% def, the drop in survivability is sharp.
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For /SR I recommend:
1. Hit the soft cap
2. Hit the needed recharge for my selected attack chain
3. Get as many HP as possible.
The hitpoints are very important to survival. Even with softcapped defenses you're still going to get hit. There's a very significant difference in survivability if an enemy has to hit 4 times to kill you instead of 3.
Luckily theres a lot of sets out there that give a little of all of these, and some of these sets also give +damage and +regen.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Fightning Romans, or Arachnos can stack -def pretty easily..
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
Where are you getting hit for -100% from? Thats insane. I've never seen anything like that. Granted I haven't played at +4x8 on anything but my Fire farmer in AE in a very long time.
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Never had problems with either group with my kat/SR and my defense are at around %48 and def res is at %92. I am fighting with +4x8 unless i am doing TFs or tips. Now Devouring Earth and Nemesis are another story but they get tohit buff and accuracy buff which at one point not even elude save the toon.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Fightning Romans, or Arachnos can stack -def pretty easily..
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When I'm working with defense based builds, I start with softcapping then shift focus into hp/regen/rech. Not in any particular order, mind you.
As others have pointed out, you want enough recharge to run the attack chain you want.
HP is so you don't get 2 shotted (it happens).
Regen works with your +hp to deal with minor-moderate damage. The more the merrier. Especially if you don't have any other means of healing. I try to shoot for at least 1% hp/sec here.
If you're using Dark Melee, you could get away with less regen... if you slot Siphon Life well. My DM/SR runs with ~1800hp, 1.26% hp/sec regen (a little over 300%), and SL heals for 280hp every 4-5 seconds.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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If you don't have a lot of def to begin with, then yes. Otherwise the attacks with -def that actually go through are far too low to stack up to anywhere near -100%. If you get hit frequently enough such that ~10s def debuffs stack up to 100% you have other problems (like your hp being negative).
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Fightning Romans, or Arachnos can stack -def pretty easily..
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Fighting Romans, or Arachnos can stack -def pretty easily..
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Originally Posted by rina_
If you don't have a lot of def to begin with, then yes. Otherwise the attacks with -def that actually go through are far too low to stack up to anywhere near -100%. If you get hit frequently enough such that ~10s def debuffs stack up to 100% you have other problems (like your hp being negative).
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It is virtually impossible to debuff an SR with any resistable debuffs (which Romans and Arachnos have) An SR hits 95% defense debuff resistance almost by accident.
Now, the average defense debuff is 7.5%. 10% of that would be 0.75%, and an SR will only be affected by 5% for a total of 0.325% debuff per attack. If you have 46% defense, you would need to be hit with 4 of those debuffs within 10 seconds to drop below the soft cap. The odds of being hit by 4 debuffs within 10 seconds are not good when you have that much defense to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Since soft cap means only %5 of attacks will hit it means 1 in every 20 attacks will hit. 4 successful attacks make it 80 attacks in 10 seconds in general asuming that each individual can make 2 or 3 attack in 10 s you need to be surrounded by at least 26 attacker but if you get this much attack in 10 seconds than you don't need to worry about defense debuff since you will be probably dead by that time.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This won't be a problem with a soft-capped SR.
It is virtually impossible to debuff an SR with any resistable debuffs (which Romans and Arachnos have) An SR hits 95% defense debuff resistance almost by accident. Now, the average defense debuff is 7.5%. 10% of that would be 0.75%, and an SR will only be affected by 5% for a total of 0.325% debuff per attack. If you have 46% defense, you would need to be hit with 4 of those debuffs within 10 seconds to drop below the soft cap. The odds of being hit by 4 debuffs within 10 seconds are not good when you have that much defense to begin with. |
I slot for recharge because once you are not getting hit you wanna hit them more and faster!
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I am quite unsure why you quoted me here. I said unless you have low defense (which you don't have as an sr), you will be dead ("have negative hp") before you get debuffed for 100% (which was referencing an earlier statement that somebody regularly gets debuffed by 100% - effectively 5% - and does build for 50% + def because of this.)|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This won't be a problem with a soft-capped SR.
It is virtually impossible to debuff an SR with any resistable debuffs (which Romans and Arachnos have) An SR hits 95% defense debuff resistance almost by accident. Now, the average defense debuff is 7.5%. 10% of that would be 0.75%, and an SR will only be affected by 5% for a total of 0.325% debuff per attack. If you have 46% defense, you would need to be hit with 4 of those debuffs within 10 seconds to drop below the soft cap. The odds of being hit by 4 debuffs within 10 seconds are not good when you have that much defense to begin with. |
Anyway... carry on.
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I quoted you because it is still a problem with high defense with non-SR characters. I have a soft-capped BS/DA scrapper, and he has major problems with cascading defense failure when fighting Romans. I have frequently found myself hitting negative defense when fighting them. |
Originally Posted by rina_
I am quite unsure why you quoted me here. I said unless you have low defense (which you don't have as an sr), you will be dead ("have negative hp") before you get debuffed for 100% (which was referencing an earlier statement that somebody regularly gets debuffed by 100% - effectively 5% - and does build for 50% + def because of this.)
Anyway... carry on. |
I was making the point that even if you do get hit enough times to stack debuffs, it won't have any effect on an SR. Not the case with characters with less DDR.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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But that's exactly what the discussion was about, just because you have DDR doesn't mean you can simply ignore def debuffs. This was the original comment:|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I was making the point that even if you do get hit enough times to stack debuffs, it won't have any effect on an SR. Not the case with characters with less DDR.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Building for 59% defense on my SRs has yielded better results for survivability than any other approach I've tried, even for normal content. The amount of enemies with significant defense debuffs or tohit buffs is often underestimated on the boards, and capped DDR is often overestimated. Getting hit by -100% def, which can happen on +4/x8 solo missions against certain factions, still turns out to be -5% def with 95% DDR, and if you're barely at 45%, 46%, 47% def, the drop in survivability is sharp.
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So the point that was made afterwards by me and others, is that it is practically impossible and certainly not happening with any kind of regularity to get hit with enough debuffs within those debuffs' timeframe to actually stack up to 100% (5%) if you're soft capped. And if you would get hit frequently enough to get a 100% debuff, you'd be pretty much dead already because every one of those debuffs comes with damage.
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Actually, when you have 95% DDR, you effectively CAN ignore defense debuffs. |
Originally Posted by rina_
But that's exactly what the discussion was about, just because you have DDR doesn't mean you can simply ignore def debuffs. This was the original comment:
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A standard 7.5% defense debuff will only reduce your defense by 0.325% with that much DDR. The odds of you getting hit with enough of those to drop you below the soft cap before they start wearing off are very very slim.
I've never seen an SR build that was exactly at 45% defense. The majority of them have at least 46%-47%, which gives them enough leeway that, for all practical purposes, defense debuffs are non-existent for them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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No, you can't. What if I have exactly 45% defense? I can't ignore it then, now can I. Just because some arbitrary number of people have their defense 1 or 2% higher than soft cap doesn't mean defense debuffs can be effectively ignored. In fact, most people go for an extra 1 or 2% on their SR toons exactly because you can't simply ignore defense debuffs.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Actually, when you have 95% DDR, you effectively CAN ignore defense debuffs.
A standard 7.5% defense debuff will only reduce your defense by 0.325% with that much DDR. The odds of you getting hit with enough of those to drop you below the soft cap before they start wearing off are very very slim. I've never seen an SR build that was exactly at 45% defense. The majority of them have at least 46%-47%, which gives them enough leeway that, for all practical purposes, defense debuffs are non-existent for them. |
Can we now please leave it at this, every one of your comments here has just rehashed what was already stated.
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Even soft-capped SR gets hit; enough to where soft-cap alone isn't actually all *that* strong relatively speaking.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
I slot for recharge because once you are not getting hit you wanna hit them more and faster!
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I tend to build for +health and +regen once I get above about 47% defense or thereabouts. I'm within one small luck of the Praetorian soft-cap (59%) and in the meantime +regen and +health will tend to help in more situations than ones where the difference between 47% and 59% are significant.
Also, you need something to moderate the damage spikes no matter how much defense you have, and because its not easy to build for a lot of resistance, +health is the second best alternative there.
When it comes to maximizing survivability, you're likely to have aid self in an SR build anyway, so I tend to be a proponent of balanced builds. Building for the most recharge you can without cutting corners on the build will not only tend to improve offense, it will also improve aid self, albeit not proportionately (because of its huge cast time). A balance between quick recharge on aid self plus getting reasonably close to the health cap plus having reasonably high passive regen will, I think, tend in the long run to generate the best overall survivability under the widest circumstances.
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...which then lets you mostly ignore defense debuffs.
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Originally Posted by rina_
most people go for an extra 1 or 2% on their SR toons exactly because you can't simply ignore defense debuffs.
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Yes, you can ignore them after you did something specifically because of them, this is by definition not ignoring them as a whole.
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Originally Posted by Werner
...which then lets you mostly ignore defense debuffs.
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You can't ignore them when you are constructing a build, but you can construct builds that can ignore them in actual play.|
Originally Posted by rina_
Yes, you can ignore them after you did something specifically because of them, this is by definition not ignoring them as a whole.
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There's a reason the soft cap is called "soft."
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I like when people "if" and "would" things that I see in my daily experience, but I like it even more when people who build for 46-47% def complain about SR being shafted every time we get new content that is harder than freakshows. 
Admittedly, that is more often because of tohit buffs than defense debuffs, and people disagree with the part of my point of view that is about defense debuffs.
For something a bit more constructive, there are numerous def debuffs without damage attached to them, in fact many of the most dangerous ones don't do damage. Tarentula mistresses, seers, arachnoid bosses come to mind.
Stuff that you can shrug off on +0/x8 or +2/x8 can become a threat on +4/x8 as mobs take a longer time to die, have a higher minimum chance to hit and debuff for more. It all adds up.
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The statement was that an SR can ignore def debuffs. This is a wrong statement, it needs to be qualified to be accurate. The accurate statement is that an SR that builds to have a buffer against def debuffs can ignore them.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You can't ignore them when you are constructing a build, but you can construct builds that can ignore them in actual play.
There's a reason the soft cap is called "soft." |
Soft cap means that an attribute is still increasable but will yield insignificant to no return afterwards. It's not called soft because it is fluffy or can be punctured by def debuffs. It's a term that has been used far longer than CoH exists.
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...eagerly awaiting arcana's dissertation on the origin of the term soft cap.|
Originally Posted by rina_
Soft cap means that an attribute is still increasable but will yield insignificant to no return afterwards. It's not called soft because it is fluffy or can be punctured by def debuffs. It's a term that has been used far longer than CoH exists.
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And while I'm sure my opinion doesn't matter since everyone already made up their mind on this subject prior to this post... but seriously people... I've had lots /SR builds in the last 5 years.... some of which only had 44.X ish defense... and I couldn't have told you what badguys even had -defense until I made a blaster. By definition /SR can ignore -defense because I, for one, have been ignoring it.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
So what do you recommend slotting for after you're already soft capped to all positions?
The psy hole with resists or defense?
More resists over all?
Max health?
Regen?
Trying to in for a little more survivability here.