Scrapper ancillary pools not so epic?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-08-04 18:58 in Suggestions and Ideas
Your avatar is a jerk. <-- for anyone seeing this at a later date and after an avatar swap, his image is just a text image that says "The song 'The Final Countdown' is now playing in your head."
Other than that, things look solid, if bordering a little on too powerful (especially the regen debuff on Shuriken... really, on a -Regen Debuff on a T1 attack?)
Also, about Body Mastery's Conserve Power: it's basically the reason that Energy Aura Scrappers will get Energize. If you take that out of the pool, there won't be any need to change the power, and there goes \EA's click heal. I'm extremely glad you didn't suggest any serious change to Energy Torrent, though... it's my favorite opening attack. 
And don't forget: the secondary effect of Fire powers is MOAR DAMAGE. It's natural for Pyre Mastery to outdamage the other sets.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I never said how serious of a regen debuff, even a minor would be nice, compared to what it is right now. The issue is okay, fire out damages them. But what do the others offer in exchange? I can't think of anything off the top of my head of what they offer that's worthwhile. The only one that has something different to offer lieu of damage is body mastery. Darkness and weapon don't seem to offer anything.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Your avatar is a jerk.
Other than that, things look solid, if bordering a little on too powerful (especially the regen debuff on Shuriken... really, on a -Regen Debuff on a T1 attack?) Also, the Conserve Power thing is the reason that Energy Aura Scrappers will get Energize. If you take that out of the pool, there goes \EA's click heal. And don't forget: the secondary effect of Fire powers is MOAR DAMAGE. It's natural for Pyre Mastery to outdamage the other sets. |
Edit: I highly doubt the entire reason the devs decided to buff energy aura with energize is strictly because of scrappers and tanks having conserve power. Energize being placed there is simply a buff that has been long needed. Conserve power in body mastery still needs to go. Superior conditioning is what should be there.
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Very nice post. I would just change the followin':
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Tier 3-Shuriken Storm, Spray, Sho-tgun (bad pun), Somethin'...|
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Tier 3- Exploding Shuriken, it's damage really needs to be buffed or something changed to make it feel special and useful.
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When I think shurikens, I think Ninja Scroll. Maybe some flashy animation similar to Dual Pistols/Flurry/Sands of Mu, some lethal DoT with numerous To Hit checks for people who might want to put in procs or Reactive, and you got yourself a customer.
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And it doesn't even work! I've got "She Sells Sanctuary" by The Cult in there now.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Your avatar is a jerk.
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You know, I was about to suggest a cone bases, shuriken swarm attack. I especially like the idea of it technically being multiple attacks so that dodging it once does not promise safety from the others.
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
Very nice post. I would just change the followin':
Tier 3-Shuriken Storm, Spray, Sho-tgun (bad pun), Somethin'... When I think shurikens, I think Ninja Scroll. Maybe some flashy animation similar to Dual Pistols/Flurry/Sands of Mu, some lethal DoT with numerous To Hit checks for people who might want to put in procs or Reactive, and you got yourself a customer. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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I agree with most of this!
I never did care for the hold/immobilize of Blaze Mastery though.
If they could make it so you can grab these powers earlier, or 1st 4 powers are tier 1 and 5th power is tier 2, so I can take any of the first 4 powers as tier 1's, things would be improved greatly!
And replacing Conserve Power with Superior Conditioning, I've been wanting for awhile!
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Personally, I like Body and Darkness the most. I haven't tried Blaze, since it came out after the last time I got a Scrapper to 50, but it looks fine to me too. Weapon Mastery... never been a fan.
Conserve Power alone is one of the major reasons that I've chosen Body Mastery for more than one character. My first level 50 Scrapper also really enjoyed having insane tohit, back before the nerfed Focused Accuracy, but it's still not that bad. I'm not that enthusiastic about the attacks in Body Mastery, but I take it for utility, not damage. I already do a lot of damage. Plus, I usually choose Body as a 'natural' set, and very few of my characters who want it would like to have Laser Beam Eyes. It just looks silly for most of them.
The number one reason that I took Darkness Mastery was because it fit thematically. (Also, the character I tried it on briefly chose Weapons, and that made me want to switch...) Gloom would be nicer than Dark Blast, but I still find Dark Blast nice for a little bit of damage to take out runners. But the main attraction of the set is definitely Tenebrous Tentacles. That power alone makes me satisfied with picking Darkness. Especially considering that my guy with it is Spines... immobilizing the enemies so I can AoE and cone their faces off? Yes please. Also, I'm perfectly happy with a hold, even if it's single target and without damage.
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It also doesn't account for the fact that "The Final Countdown" was already playing in my headphones.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
And it doesn't even work! I've got "She Sells Sanctuary" by The Cult in there now.
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I'm not against revamping the Epic pools, because I agree - Dark and Weapons kind of suck. However, I don't think the OP and I are on the same page as to what constitutes "good" powers. Scrapper Epics are not ranged attack sets, they are control sets with ranged attacks in them. Even the Patron Pools they get from Stalkers aren't all attacks. I'm not sure if I agree with this or not, but that's how they're designed and that's what we should judge them by.
I find "Weapon" Mastery to be underwhelming because it doesn't really have weapons in it. I'd have expected a bow (which didn't exist at the time, granted) or guns (we had single pistol and rifle powers back then). What it IS, by contrast, is Devices, more or less. With the addition of a fifth power, it became even more like it. The shuriken powers just don't thrill me, personally. I mean, OK, the one shuriken, maybe, but, but the exploding one? The hell? Why not have a barrage of them? OK, I know that when Epics were made, it was on player complaint that "What, so in the 10 new levels I get to take the powers I didn't want before?" so they couldn't really afford to add much new artwork, but we got Cryo Freeze Ray, didn't we?
I really don't mind Weapon Mastery's balance, though. Web Grenade has a recharge debuff on it, so it's good for that and Caltrops is not a damage power, it is a run speed debuff. Aside from wolves and other "fast" enemies, with enough debuff in the thing you can more or less slow a whole spawn to a crawl. It's useful for making a retreat if need be, it's useful for sewing chaos among enemies and it's useful for keeping them from scattering too fast, which can help tremendously with lower-level enemies like those of the Steel Canyon fires.
Dark, on the other hand, I hate because it's just stupid. I get that Epics are not attack sets, but this is just... Ugh! Dark already has a ton of support powers. Why can't we have had a decent AoE or cone? Torrent is just offensive. It should have been put in a support slot, not a damage slot. I don't actually mind Dark Blast being in there because A) it looks VASTLY better than Gloom with the damn skull thing which I hate and B) it delivers its damage instantly, as opposed to over time, which seems to be Dark's "thing." The only thing I'd like to see happen to it is for Torrent to stop sucking.
When it comes to Pyre Mastery, I actually really like both the immobilize and the hold. They're not THAT useful on a Scrapper as status effects, but both of them do some SERIOUS damage, which is always a plus. And Body Mastery's Conserve Power, though on a long recharge, is still very useful. Yes, granted, a constant endurance bar increase is useful, but for the time it's active, Conserve Power has a MASSIVE impact. Even before inherent Stamina, I was using it to fight enemies with heavy endurance drain and run the old super-expensive Focused Accuracy (it's much, much cheaper now) so I value having a safety net for when my end drops like a stone.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Scrappers needs Ionic mastery.
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Did this guy just diss Caltrops?
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Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Caltrops, eh the damage is good if you can get enemies to stay in it, but otherwise you could have melee'd them to death by the time that damage occurs.
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Make that Ironic Mastery and I'll take it.
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Originally Posted by Angelxman81
Scrappers needs Ionic mastery.
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I normally take Body for PP but also dont mind Lazer Beam Eyes (LBE).
Its a ranged attack and I can slot 3-4x Devastations for 12% Regen, +2.25% Max HP and +3% Dam (if I can afford the 4th slot).
I also put in the Chance to Hold - Im surprised how often I see the hold actuallt kick in.
Its also good for EB fights when there is little in the way of Hold attacks in the team and also good for Hami and LGTF. Instead of my Melee toon not doing much during the green phase I can spam LBE and 1/7 attacks it should activate. Its recharge when my toon is slotted it between 1.5-2 secs so I can LBE almost non-stop.
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Not that I'm dissing it persee, but the damage takes a long time to really be noticed and the fear effect can make it difficult to keep enemies in it unless you have someone who knows to immob enemies the second you caltrop, would be useful if you had an aoe immob in the set but web grenade in this set is single target. Something to think about.
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Originally Posted by Icy_J
Did this guy just diss Caltrops?
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
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I prefer "Fire Woman" but "She Sells Sanctuary" is pretty wicked no doubt.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
And it doesn't even work! I've got "She Sells Sanctuary" by The Cult in there now.
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I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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Okay well, I'm not about stripping and gutting the entire set, I've also had ideas of tweaking existing powers to make them feel more useful. Adding debuffs that make sense, buffing damage, etc. of course all these buffs would be balanced.
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Originally Posted by Patteroast
Personally, I like Body and Darkness the most. I haven't tried Blaze, since it came out after the last time I got a Scrapper to 50, but it looks fine to me too. Weapon Mastery... never been a fan.
Conserve Power alone is one of the major reasons that I've chosen Body Mastery for more than one character. My first level 50 Scrapper also really enjoyed having insane tohit, back before the nerfed Focused Accuracy, but it's still not that bad. I'm not that enthusiastic about the attacks in Body Mastery, but I take it for utility, not damage. I already do a lot of damage. Plus, I usually choose Body as a 'natural' set, and very few of my characters who want it would like to have Laser Beam Eyes. It just looks silly for most of them. The number one reason that I took Darkness Mastery was because it fit thematically. (Also, the character I tried it on briefly chose Weapons, and that made me want to switch...) Gloom would be nicer than Dark Blast, but I still find Dark Blast nice for a little bit of damage to take out runners. But the main attraction of the set is definitely Tenebrous Tentacles. That power alone makes me satisfied with picking Darkness. Especially considering that my guy with it is Spines... immobilizing the enemies so I can AoE and cone their faces off? Yes please. Also, I'm perfectly happy with a hold, even if it's single target and without damage. |
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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And that's why I want other people to input in on this. I realize I'm sorta one track mind with what I want. I agree with most of your post. If they are to give us some controllerish powers I would like them to have a slightly bigger impact. I believe one major change that could be made would be to make the immobs into aoe immobs. A single target immob isn't overly useful when you have 10 enemies charging you as you retreat. Hah, stopped that lieutenant! I'm safe now!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It also doesn't account for the fact that "The Final Countdown" was already playing in my headphones.
--- I'm not against revamping the Epic pools, because I agree - Dark and Weapons kind of suck. However, I don't think the OP and I are on the same page as to what constitutes "good" powers. Scrapper Epics are not ranged attack sets, they are control sets with ranged attacks in them. Even the Patron Pools they get from Stalkers aren't all attacks. I'm not sure if I agree with this or not, but that's how they're designed and that's what we should judge them by. I find "Weapon" Mastery to be underwhelming because it doesn't really have weapons in it. I'd have expected a bow (which didn't exist at the time, granted) or guns (we had single pistol and rifle powers back then). What it IS, by contrast, is Devices, more or less. With the addition of a fifth power, it became even more like it. The shuriken powers just don't thrill me, personally. I mean, OK, the one shuriken, maybe, but, but the exploding one? The hell? Why not have a barrage of them? OK, I know that when Epics were made, it was on player complaint that "What, so in the 10 new levels I get to take the powers I didn't want before?" so they couldn't really afford to add much new artwork, but we got Cryo Freeze Ray, didn't we? I really don't mind Weapon Mastery's balance, though. Web Grenade has a recharge debuff on it, so it's good for that and Caltrops is not a damage power, it is a run speed debuff. Aside from wolves and other "fast" enemies, with enough debuff in the thing you can more or less slow a whole spawn to a crawl. It's useful for making a retreat if need be, it's useful for sewing chaos among enemies and it's useful for keeping them from scattering too fast, which can help tremendously with lower-level enemies like those of the Steel Canyon fires. Dark, on the other hand, I hate because it's just stupid. I get that Epics are not attack sets, but this is just... Ugh! Dark already has a ton of support powers. Why can't we have had a decent AoE or cone? Torrent is just offensive. It should have been put in a support slot, not a damage slot. I don't actually mind Dark Blast being in there because A) it looks VASTLY better than Gloom with the damn skull thing which I hate and B) it delivers its damage instantly, as opposed to over time, which seems to be Dark's "thing." The only thing I'd like to see happen to it is for Torrent to stop sucking. When it comes to Pyre Mastery, I actually really like both the immobilize and the hold. They're not THAT useful on a Scrapper as status effects, but both of them do some SERIOUS damage, which is always a plus. And Body Mastery's Conserve Power, though on a long recharge, is still very useful. Yes, granted, a constant endurance bar increase is useful, but for the time it's active, Conserve Power has a MASSIVE impact. Even before inherent Stamina, I was using it to fight enemies with heavy endurance drain and run the old super-expensive Focused Accuracy (it's much, much cheaper now) so I value having a safety net for when my end drops like a stone. |
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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Caustic Insult- Toxic damage with a chance for damaged ego.|
Originally Posted by Aneko
Make that Ironic Mastery and I'll take it.
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Berating Comment- Taunt effect that also causes -tohit
Eye roll- Single target confusion effect
Sarcastic Quip- Smashing/Energy damage ST ranged with -res
Ego Smasher- To powerful so it got removed.
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
I never got why brutes got aoe immobs but scrappers didn't.
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You and me both.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
I never got why brutes got aoe immobs but scrappers didn't.
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I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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That because Caltrops is not a damage power. It's a debuff/area denial power that happens to deal damage. You don't drop Caltrops to kill enemies, you drop it to keep enemies off of your back while you kill your friends. The fear debuff makes enemies (generally) turn around and run out of the patch on the side they entered making it really hard for them to cross the area and resulting in them making fewer ranged attacks. |
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Not that I'm dissing it persee, but the damage takes a long time to really be noticed and the fear effect can make it difficult to keep enemies in it unless you have someone who knows to immob enemies the second you caltrop, would be useful if you had an aoe immob in the set but web grenade in this set is single target. Something to think about.
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On the general subject I'll just say I think you're overly focused on damage (*sigh* Scrappers. You can't change them). Most of the powers you dislike in the sets are the various control/debuff powers available to Scrappers. Now while some of them (*cough* Melt Armor *cough*) are practically useless the majority are there to provide Scrappers some options for Active Defense if they desire it. Yes, Torrent is a high magnitude KB power, some people LIKE a high magnitude KB power. Powers like Char and Petrifying Gaze are not there to deal damage, they're there so a Scrapper can neutralize problematic LTs/Minions before they debuff him (things like Sappers for sets that are vulnerable to them). Caltrops are there for Scrappers who want to split a spawn up and have an easy way to keep extra foes off their back. Web Grenades and Ring of Fire are there for Scrappers who want to stop their enemies from running away.
In conclusion I'd just add that not all Scrappers are soft-capped AoE death machines. Even a small amount of active defense can, if sensibly applied, provide a surprising amount of damage mitigation and some people liek to take advantage of that.
Well honestly, my main point to this thread isn't to make all the ancillary epic damage sets, but to feel like they're actually being useful and worth taking, overall in my opinion weapon mastery and darkness mastery feel highly underwhelming.
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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Well, I'm less sure about Darkness but I think the power choices in Weapon Mastery are fine although a few could use number tweaks. |
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Well honestly, my main point to this thread isn't to make all the ancillary epic damage sets, but to feel like they're actually being useful and worth taking, overall in my opinion weapon mastery and darkness mastery feel highly underwhelming.
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Web Grenade is a solid immobilize and recharge debuff so it doesn't really need changing. Caltrops is an awesome area denial power so it's fine as is, it's a slightly unusual power for a Scrapper so it's not generically useful but Stalkers get it in Ninjitsu so there is precedence. Targeting Drone accomplishes it's primary purpose of providing protection from to hit and perception debuffs although since Weapons Mastery lacks any endurance management powers it would be nice if it had a slightly lower endurance cost.
I do think the Shurikens could use some tweaks though. Shuriken is a 3 second recharge blast which makes it of somewhat limited utility for a Scrapper who mostly uses ranged blasts for pulling or picking off runners and, as such, generally finds a longer recharge heavy hitting attack more useful. I'd like to see the recharge and damage increased somewhat. Exploding Shuriken is easier, it's a standard 16 second recharge AoE (doubled to 32seconds as it's an Epic Power) except that, for some reason, it only has a 10ft radius instead of the usual 15ft. I think increasing the radius to 15ft would be a fair change.
Surely by now people get that the Ancillary Pools aren't there to suddenly turn your character into an amazing one?
At level 38 you've got, for generic purposes, all of the power-set choices you'll take for that character. The Ancillaries don't add anything to those powers but they might plug a gap, without dramatically changing the nature of the AT. So you won't suddenly get Team Heals for Scrapper APPs.
Also to note is that each AT has base values for the effectiveness of their various attacks/defences/resists/buffs/debuffs/controls etc etc.
The -def of my Scrapper's Katana attacks is not as high as the -def of a /Rad Defender's blasts. But I do more damage, especially in melee, because I'm a melee AT.
So giving Scrappers 'souped-up' controls/debuffs whatever would be overpowered, because the power of the , um, power would have to be rammed up to take account for the low base value of these kinds of moves.
I certainly think that Scrapper APPs could do with some proliferation - Sonic and Electric for starters - if only for some variety.
But souping up their powers for me is a clear /unsigned.
Hell no to the whole thread. CP alone is better than PP and Superior Conditioning together.
Trading CP for Superior Conditioning would be like trading Dull Pain for Fast Healing on a regen. You might be willing to take a huge performance hit for the convenience of having something passive, but not everyone feels the same. NO to completely unwarranted nerfs!
So this has bothered me for a very long time. I feel that a good majority the of the original scrapper ancillary pools are incredibly lacking in epic vibe. Out of the current 4 I find 1 good (Blaze), 1 acceptable (Body) and the other 2 I feel are fairly useless (Dark and Weapon). I'll break down each of these.
Blaze, I find the most acceptable, okay, yes you do have to take one mediocre power to get to the real meat but once you get there boy is that meat tasty! Fire Blast and Fire Ball goodness! Pew pew to your hearts content! Ok, yes Melt Armor is pretty laughable with the numbers it puts out compared to it's endurance costs. I've heard many people compare it to an emote with an endurance costs, but you don't have to take it so oh well. Next!
Body master...well first off...one issue I have with it, scrappers and tanks get stuck with Conserve Power with it's huge recharge time I find fairly useless while brutes and stalkers get superior conditioning which seems superior in every way. When brutes and stalkers received ancillary powers why weren't scrapper and tank versions changed? A permanent bonus to endurance sounds better in every way possible! Focused Accuracy is okay, if you have accuracy issues go ahead and take it, it's kinda end heavy but it does what it does. Laser Beam Eyes, longer animation time than fire blast, lower damage...this should really be toned up. Physical Perfection, it's fine, in fact one of the few reasons why I find body mastery acceptable on scrappers. Energy torrent...well it isn't a high mag KB so it's fine, fast animation also so I won't complain to much. Now...we move onto the stuff I have real issues with.
Dark mastery, where do I start with you? Torrent makes me ill, a decent size cone, and it has a very high mag KB which can be odd to use, but it's possible I suppose to shove groups of mobs into corners and what not. It's damage though is pretty repulsive. Petrifying gaze...it does no damage and compared to char why would you ever want this? Oh, and remember when the devs were porting epic pools and said they didn't want any duplicate powers? Guess what Darkness and Soul mastery have in common? Both have poor, poor mediocre dark blast instead of gloom. Why give us awesome fire blast but then not gloom? But I digress, at least this power feels more useful than the rest of darkness mastery, it's ranged, it deals damage. Movin' onto nightfall which is a smallish cone, damage that's almost as low as torrent and fairly long animation time. Fire ball it is not. Tenebrous tentacles! Hey who let a decent aoe sneak in here! Cast time is better than nightfall, damage is better and it even has an immob if that matters to you.
Moving onto weapons. What do we start off with? Web grenades, while in pve this power isn't overly looked for but it does have it's uses for pvp, I'll just ignore it unless I need it. Caltrops, eh the damage is good if you can get enemies to stay in it, but otherwise you could have melee'd them to death by the time that damage occurs. Hey shuriken! It's brawl in ranged form! Albeit it recharges silly quick so it's fairly spammy but eh...no umph behind it and it lacks any kind of debuff along side it to make it interesting choice. Next is focued ac-I mean targeting drone, see my previous statements of focused accuracy for this. Exploding shuriken is awful. Period. The end. Exact same endurance costs and recharge time of fire ball but it's damage is almost a joke when compared.
What makes all of this even worse is that a lot of these things could easily be fixed to be brought up to date. Here are my idealized changes to each power set.
Body Mastery
Tier 1- Superior Conditioning in and out with Conserve Power
Tier 1-Focused Accuracy is okay as is.
Tier 2-Laser Beam Eyes needs a buffing
Tier 2-Physical Perfection, don't mess with it, we have something good.
Tier 3-Energy Torrent a slight buff to it's damage won't break it, go for it!
Darkness Mastery
Honestly, after reading over this set over and over again I cannot find any good fix for it. It all seems so hodge-podge it just feels like it needs to be tossed. Now if it were me, I would just take the brute soul mastery and use that in it's place. But yet again, just what I would do.
Weapon Mastery
Tier 1-Web Grenade, I'm not overly fond of this power but I have seen it been used from time to time and actually be sorta useful and I still like it in pvp.
Tier 1- Shuriken, now, I have come up with a crazy idea for this, how about some toxic DoT and a regen debuff along with it? Or how about a debuff of some kind?
Tier 2- Targeting Drone, same as focused accuracy.
Tier 2- Flash Bang, in my mind it would essentially be very similar if not the same in power aspect as flash arrow from trick arrow, maybe have a hold in it also?
Tier 3- Exploding Shuriken, it's damage really needs to be buffed or something changed to make it feel special and useful.
Well that's the end of my rant, I'd love to hear any ideas others may have. So please post!
P.S. Yes, I am aware that several times through out this post I compared a good many powers to what we get in blaze mastery.
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson