Scrapper ancillary pools not so epic?

I should note here that, interestingly, there are different modifiers for ranged and melee damage. This is very interesting given that this seems to make no difference since they only ways for scrappers, brutes, tanks, and stalkers to get ranged attacks are through Epic Power Pools and certain power sets, all of those use the melee damage modifier for calculating damage in such cases though.
(For example, while Laser Beam Eyes is a ranged APP, a defender would do less damage with it than a scrapper, brute, or tank.)

Also, despite Artic's comments about katana's debuffs not being as good as a defender's, my own katana/SR still once managed to bring an enemy's defense to -50% through sheer DPS.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

Heh...I figured people wouldn't like the idea of it. I realize how good CP is. I just almost never use it, so for ME Superior Conditioning would be more better, as I wouldn't notice the performance hit.

Though I would enjoy making the first four powers tier 1, and the 5th power tier 2. I'd actually take Melt Armor on my Blaze Mastery Scrappers if this was the case. Is it a great power? No. But it looks pretty, and I'd prefere it over Char on some characters basically for concept/flashiness.

So, Epic power pools aren't supposed to make you epic?

Okay.

They're not called Epic Pools. They're called Anicillary or Patron Power Pools.

Not so touche'!

Edit: Wait... when levelin' up and you get the option to pick a power from'em, it says Choose One Epic Power Set. This was double-checked on a second build on a hero.

They were supposed to be epic, but in testing it didn't fit into the Balance Vision that way. Looks like they missed one in the ensuing global rename.

You mean like how ATs get things that they can't get anywhere else like blasters having shields or controllers having mez protection, etc? 'kay, gonna make a note of this, huge success.

Edit: As for souped up, I didn't say make it overpowered, I said make it not useless. Holding a single minion or lieutenant that dies in one attack is pretty much useless.

maybe if your only fighting a few low tier enemies, If there is a sapper, cim surgeon, or other major buff/debuff holding them first is a major boon

...okay...but how about I dunno, change it so it seems ever so slightly useful, a low mag hold that has a short duration and a bad recharge time buffed a wee bit. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying take the hold away, I gave ideas of what I would have, how about your ideas of how you would improve them?

But having one shield does not suddenly make a Controller/Defender a Tank, Brute, Scrapper, or even a Stalker. They plug a gap.

And as for mez protection, there's Mind Over Body and Force of Nature. The other shields don't, afaik, provide mez protection. Please do post the ones that do and I have missed though - it'd be interesting to see which powers provide mez protection for the 'squishy' classes.

And to further my -def point, it's true that Katana has a high DPS which can overcome its lower -def value. Most of the time I'm downing things quicker with my Scrapper using attacks than my Rad Blast Defender though.
I guess versus high HP bosses (especially Titans) the DPS kicks in and the -def is equal or greater than a Defender's (who may well be doing other non-damage things like debuffing).
Rad Blasters and Corruptors may have a different experience but I don't have either of them.

Also, I believe Azure mentioned that Melee characters don't have ranged until Ancillary/Patron. Claws, Kinetic Melee and Spines do have ranged powers. And technically Electric Melee and Shield Defense have a ranged AoE. Some even have soft controls (Fear, knockdown ) and others even have immobs and holds (Dark Melee, Martial Arts, Energy Melee) not necessarily good ones, depending on AT).

Since when has Force of Nature granted any mez protection? Last I knew it never has granted mez protection (except on initial testing).

Pretty absolute scrappers don't have any holds, only stuns, but I will go over mids right quick to make absolute on this. Yep, I was right, only stuns. Sadly no stuns in the epic pools to stack it with.

Yes elec and shield do have ranged aoe but those also have the side effect of teleporting you into melee which at times can be a very bad thing. So I still consider these pbaoe since those are what they take. Pseudo ranged I suppose.

But you are still taking this off topic. My main goal is to make the sets seem a bit more viable other than having a power to immob/hold an errant minion/lieutenant. Why not have the aoe immob instead of the single target like most of the other melee classes have in their epic pools?

The developers initially pitched those as "Epic Pools." The playerbase reacted with the exact same complaint you are: "What's so epic about these?" The development team conceded and renamed them to "Anchillary Pools," as in pools of supplementary powers, vs. the pools of BETTER powers that the original name suggested. The level-up name slipped through the cracks and has never been fixed, mostly because old farts like me never really stopped calling them "Epic Pools" despite them not being called this, just like I keep calling Bastion "Citadel" when my brain slips up.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Wait, what?

So, Lightning Rod and Shield Charge teleporting you into melee is at times a BAD thing?

Even though all of the other attack powers in the sets those powers are in can only be used in melee range?

So, how exactly is teleporting to a place where you can actually use your other powers a bad thing? If your scrapper isn't in melee range, he is standing around doing nothing.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Let me know how that works out for you on a Apex during the Battle Maiden fight or a Keyes trial at the end with Oblit beams.

I don't agree with you. Not the same as taking a thread off topic.

Why should Scrappers have AoE immobs? At the moment all I'm seeing is 'Because I want them to' and not any other reason.

Other way around, actually.

Also I'd just like to chime in and point out (donning a flameproof suit in advance) that across the board, every single Ancillary/Patron shield toggle could probably use a look-at. They don't really appear to be balanced against one another (Charged Armor for Blasters is noticeably stronger than say, Temp Invuln*), and that's before even getting into an argument on whether a full 30% resistance (or equivalent defense, where it crops up) to the two most common damage types is overpowered on squishier ATs (you may be able to guess what I think without much trouble).

Considering we're talking about powers that have gone, AFAIK, untouched since the murky days of I-freakin'-3 (and 7 for Patron shields), I don't think it's too unfair to at least call for them to be re-checked. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they were entirely forgotten when they raised Blaster health.

*Before someone chimes in with "individual powers aren't balanced against each other!" I'll say that I think I'm safe in claiming that Elec Mastery as a whole is superior to Primal Forces Mastery as a whole. From a purely logical standpoint, one would expect an ancillary set with that much control to have a slightly weaker shield rather than one of, if not the, strongest around, and a rather lacking pool like Primal Forces to have a stronger than normal shield with more than a miniscule 2.5% extra resistance.

(Edit: Wow, looking back on it I completely forgot that Controller and Defender shields are scaled even higher than 30%, which I outright find absurd. Also the Defender version of Charged Armor actually does have a weaker Energy component.)

Simple solution to your dilemma there.

If you don't want your scrapper to be in melee range for some reason.....don't use Lightning Rod or Shield Charge.

Scrappers are not intended to have a large number of ranged attacks. If they were, they probably wouldn't be scrappers.

Ancillary pools are meant to give a character a little bit of something they don't have in their primary or secondary power set. They are NOT intended to completely change the way that character plays.

Scrappers get a little bit of control, some ranged ability, and maybe some utility powers in their APPs. They aren't supposed to turn your scrapper into a blaster or controller.

Look at the other side of it: Is your controller as tough as a scrapper because they get a shield in their APP? Is your defender suddenly a fierce melee combatant because they can get Total Focus or Thunder Strike in their APP? Is a brute suddenly stepping on the toes of the controllers because they get an AoE immobilize? Last I checked, the answer to all of those questions was "No".

Scrapper ancillaries are fine, they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing: giving you a couple more options in what you can do.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

B before C! Damn it, I will remember this!

I'm pretty sure Electric Mastery is superior to Foce Mastery, yes, and the disparity between the two shields is staggering. In general, I feel Epics need to get a another look and rebalance, and we could probably use quite a few more.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

When you're disagreeing and missing the point it is. And what's your argument of why scrappers shouldn't have an aoe immob? What? Nothing? 'kay.

My reasoning is that they are useful as I've already stated. A single target immob in the long run of the game is useless especially when the game throws a large amount of enemies at you. The reasoning I've heard of taking the immob is to make a retreat. What good will immobilizing a single enemy as you retreat when you have 15 enemies charging at you, even more so that you won't be immobilizing the bosses, only the minions and lieutenants.

I never said give them full blaster capability, having a few useful ranged attacks is what I'm asking. Not attacks like shuriken that feels as if they're doing nothing or controls that feel like wasted time.

You know, outside of Char (because it's a smoke animation and not BLAZE or FIRE), I tend to like the Holds. It's the ST Immobilizes I really haven't cared for.

But the Hold at least to me has a better function than the Immobilize.

And I have to agree. Would be nice if the blasts where a bit better damage. I don't take the blasts for a ranged attacks per se (though it's nice to have for sure) I take them because they're awesome for concepts to take.

Sadly, they're not always worthwhile using except for say on a runner, when I'd rather like to use them to replace or use in conjunction with say my Tier 1 melee attack, without losing any damage.

This x 10. Conserve Power is much better than Superior Conditioning. I agree with a minor few of the OP's points but, in general, the Scrapper epics are fine.

Well, you know that the APP powers are generally nerfed in some way in comparison to the same power from a class that would 'usually' have the thing. Right? For the damage and control powers that's generally just a doubled recharge time as opposed to a damage reduction (which is nifty since a scrappers ranged modifier is completely horrible ... so they made the ranged powers just use their melee modifier instead).

If you look at the damage from the scrapper's APP attacks they're all completely in-line with the damage for either the same blaster's power or for a blaster's power of similar (halfed) recharge (with the possible exception of the blaze mastery APP). Heck, if you factor in crits they're more damaging.

On that note though, if buffing the damage of the scrapper's APP blasts means a buff for the ranged blasts' damage across the board that's certainly fine by me. Just buffing all the Scrapper APPs to be in line with one out of balance APP seems a little bit of a bad idea though.