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How does your WP get in danger from end drain? On my WP scrapper, if any of the -rec/-end powers do land, I have 3 +End Procs, and Stamina/QR working to keep any of it from being a real threat.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
One thing I noted comparing my WP tanker and my Inv scrapper is that the WP can get in danger from end drain and recovery debuffs, while my Invuln can pretty much ignore those effects anymore. Augurs and the other seers in the trials who deal Psi damage are oddly more dangerous to my WP tanker than my Invuln scrapper. I picked up Ageless on my tanker now though, so that has pretty much closed that gap.
As to the two sets, I have to stick with my original comment, both good, choose by personal preference. |
In fact the only time I did have a problem with END drain was in an AE mission up against enemies designed to drain the blue bar rather quickly.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I have 2 of the +end procs (my APP is Earth, so I do not have PP). I have not really had any issues with end drain outside of the IDF, but Drain Psyche hits with enough recovery debuff to totally shutdown my recovery and while I do not recall if the missles totally shut it down, they do not help. Normally I can ignore my blue bar, therefore I normally ignore my blue bar. With attacking and my toggles, ignoring my blue bar in the Lambda proved to be unhealthy. A few blues and paying attention mostly solved the issue, but the Ageless solved it better.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
How does your WP get in danger from end drain? On my WP scrapper, if any of the -rec/-end powers do land, I have 3 +End Procs, and Stamina/QR working to keep any of it from being a real threat.
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It is possible the difference is just that being a tanker I purposely try to get those negative effects on me instead of on others. It is possible I run too many toggles (I do, but I kind of like my build so I leave them in). It is possible Energy Mastery makes the difference. I also have just the base slot in Stamina (with the proc); QR is 3 slotted, the proc and 2 Efficacy Adapters. All of those combined are the likely culprit for why it was a problem for my build.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Admittedly I don't study Mids numbers closely like many people do, I just know how my toons perform when I play them.|
Originally Posted by Starflier
This is something I've never understood. Inv runs less toggles than any other tanker set, for less end/s than any other tanker set, yet somehow gets stuck with a reputation of being end heavy.
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This is my MA/Invul scrapper Shinobu Dragonheart. With 3 Invul toggles running plus tough weave and focused accuracy, I have 1.60 endurance consumption and 3.26 recovery rate for a differential of +1.66. I've had to work very hard to get to that too -- you can see a lot of set bonuses in that recovery total.
This is my MA/WP scrapper Tiffany Blackheart. With 4 WP toggles running plus tough and weave and focuses accuracy, I have 1.96 endurance consumption and 3.86 recovery rate for a differential of +1.90. I didn't have to work as hard to get there either. ^_^
Nina Ballerina for comparison, also MA/WP, very similar in build to Tiffany.
Simply put, my MA/Invul scrapper runs out of endurance faster than my MA/WP scrappers, even after I've stuffed in a bunch of endurance recovery set bonuses. Their attacks are very similarly slotted. Quick Recovery makes a big a difference.
That's why I tend to consider Invulnerability an endurance heavy set, because overall I will have less endurance to work with. Admittedly this is from a scrapper's point of view.
Martial Arts uses a lot of endurance, so before I worked in all of those set bonuses for Shinobu, the difference was very noticeable.
Just for the sake of comping apples to oranges, here's my EM/SD scrapper Sparks Fly. Here I'm running 3 shield toggles, plus tough and weave, combat jumping, and maneuvers. That's what I normally run with although I have Assault and Grant Cover that I can run (I do use Grant Cover when I think it's useful/a good idea).
But as you can see, Sparks normally runs at a +2.11 differential. That's without the benefit of Physical Perfection, but also without the endurance drag of Focused Accuracy, so take whatever you want from that.
My MA/Invul scrapper still runs out of endurance faster. ^_^
Now... for me, "endurance issues" mean if I'm attacking constantly I'll eventually run out of endurance. That's a problem, to me.
I want to be able to attack continuously and NOT run out of endurance, if at all possible!(I replaced an image of Trinkets with Sparks Fly -- as Trinkets actually has Cardiac slotted, not a very fair comparison. Sparks has T3 Musculature, Partial Core Revamp, so not getting any endurance benefit from the Alpha slot as yet.)
(If and when I work on an alpha slot for Shinobu Dragonheart, I'll probably go Cardiac as well. Nina and Tiffany I slotted with Nerve because I thought the small defensive bonus would be useful and I didn't really think I needed anything else.)
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
I am actually going to have to go with the 'can't really tell much difference' at the high ends of the builds. Both my SS/INV and my SS/WP were very expensive builds and both are virtually indestructible. That said, my WP brute is soft capped, and my inv's def for Melee is at around 43, with his s/l being around 54 or so when surrounded. When I took them to cim to experiment, I found that when I put them on the Wall and went to make dinner or watch a movie, the WP would faceplant, the INV would not. Cascade failure would kill the WP every time, the INV would never really notice. Neither of these two have a single purple enh in them.
In missions however, the INV doesn't seem to fare as well as the WP. It may just be my perception, but I like the WP for running missions.
Stand UP.
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Well there's your problem...|
Originally Posted by Organica
This is my MA/Invul scrapper Shinobu Dragonheart. With 3 Invul toggles running plus tough weave and focused accuracy
That's why I tend to consider Invulnerability an endurance heavy set, because overall I will have less endurance to work with. |
... it's not Invuln, it's running Focused Accuracy on anything that doesn't have QR.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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Now compare Invul to sets that don't get the best end recovery power.
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Originally Posted by Organica
Simply put, my MA/Invul scrapper runs out of endurance faster than my MA/WP scrappers, even after I've stuffed in a bunch of endurance recovery set bonuses. Their attacks are very similarly slotted. Quick Recovery makes a big a difference.
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My characters without QR are just fine with FA. However, they don't tend to skip CP (scraps) or Cardiac (brutes).| ... it's not Invuln, it's running Focused Accuracy on anything that doesn't have QR. |
It seems odd to go for FA on an invul considering Invinc, though, and even more weird to pick FA and then pick PP rather than CP. CP with just the base slot would likely reduce the need for recovery set bonuses significantly, and the regen offered by PP is so low I don't believe anyone could see the difference outside of a controlled test with a stopwatch (especially on a character with Aid Self).
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My WP scrappers shown have FA too. If I remove FA from all of them, the differential remains the same.|
Originally Posted by Kosmos
Well there's your problem...
... it's not Invuln, it's running Focused Accuracy on anything that doesn't have QR. |
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Now compare Invul to sets that don't get the best end recovery power.
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I suppose my problem is that I have 3 level 50 regens, 4 level 50 WP, 3 shield, and no dark armor scrappers. Lol. Also, my only level 50 brute is dark melee/electric armor, which has significant endurance recovery options (one from each set if you want to take both). But based on that, my Invul scrapper has always had the largest endurance problems to overcome.
Anyway, in the context of WP vs. Invulnerability, you do have to consider that Invul doesn't have QR. That effects how you build your character.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Well I wouldn't vouch for it being a perfect build, it's more than two years old for one thing. But I've never liked Cp much, it's one more thing I have to keep remembering to click. I prefer having as few powers like that as possible.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
My characters without QR are just fine with FA. However, they don't tend to skip CP (scraps) or Cardiac (brutes).
It seems odd to go for FA on an invul considering Invinc, though, and even more weird to pick FA and then pick PP rather than CP. CP with just the base slot would likely reduce the need for recovery set bonuses significantly, and the regen offered by PP is so low I don't believe anyone could see the difference outside of a controlled test with a stopwatch (especially on a character with Aid Self). |
But as I said, if I go for Cardiac then it won't matter.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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What relevance does that have? The important differential isn't the one between your toons, but between your Recovery and END use. And that would improve by at least 0.4 E/s if you get rid of FA (it uses an appalling 0.78 E/s unslotted), resulting in a surplus END of +2.15 E/s or better on the Invuln. Which is more than the WP Scrappers (+2.00 and +2.10) that you say have no problems.|
Originally Posted by Organica
My WP scrappers shown have FA too. If I remove FA from all of them, the differential remains the same.
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Bottom line: You consider Inv heavy on END use because of what you're comparing it to and because you run the massive END-hog Focused Accuracy. FA uses more END than all three Inv toggles put together (0.78 vs 0.728 base). So I'll say it again, there's you're problem.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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Yeah, it's not invul so much as what you run WITH invul there.
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Originally Posted by Kosmos
What relevance does that have? The important differential isn't the one between your toons, but between your Recovery and END use. And that would improve by at least 0.4 E/s if you get rid of FA (it uses an appalling 0.78 E/s unslotted), resulting in a surplus END of +2.15 E/s or better on the Invuln. Which is more than the WP Scrappers (+2.00 and +2.10) that you say have no problems.
Bottom line: You consider Inv heavy on END use because of what you're comparing it to and because you run the massive END-hog Focused Accuracy. FA uses more END than all three Inv toggles put together (0.78 vs 0.728 base). So I'll say it again, there's you're problem. |
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Why take Focused Accuracy when you could get both Maneuvers and Tactics for about the same end/sec.
Seriously, I don't know why anyone ever uses it.
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While I understand the point you're heading towards, that isn't quite the full story.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
The problem with relying on Regen is that it is a static amount of mitigation. Defense and Resistance scale with damage. The more damage that comes at you, the more they benefit you. Your 80 hp/sec per second will only ever give you 80 hp/sec.
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The 80 HP/s is against just one mob.
There aren't many single mobs that can put out 80+ DPS other than some GM's
and signature heroes, so it's substantial mitigation, and often sufficient all by
itself, for standard stuff.
With RttC though, regen stacks based on the number of mobs in range, so it can
easily get into the 120-130 HP/s level at the initial stages of a battle.
To be sure, that is still a finite number against a crowd, but it's still quite effective.
I think the more noteworthy issue with regen is that very few toons can get
even close to those levels. By contrast, softcapping defense in some way (a type,
or position etc.) is much easier to achieve for most ATs.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
I picked 80 hp/s as a random number. Even at 200 hp/s (which iirc is about the most you can get even on a WP tank) the regen is doing less for you than your defense and resistances.
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This part is completely untrue. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
I think the more noteworthy issue with regen is that very few toons can get
even close to those levels. By contrast, softcapping defense in some way (a type, or position etc.) is much easier to achieve for most ATs. |
2 words: Rebirth Radial
Any character, regardless of AT. Just grind Lambda.
Lets go back to your mock Lt. and an Invuln with no regen, Fourspeed, and insert my actual SS/Invuln build on live.
He has 46.4% S/L defense (with 1 in invincibility), 75.24% resistance S/L, and 23.64 hp/sec regen with dull pain down (34.16 hp/sec up and its perma in my build.) However, you don't want to give the Invuln any regen, so we won't. He has 1994 hit points without dull pain because I don't have the invader accolade yet.
Mob Attk Attk Total Dmg HP
Brute HP/Def/Reg/Res ToH Count Hits Dmg Taken Recv Result
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SS/Inv 1994/45/--/75 5 300 15 9000 2250 -- DEAD
SS/WP 2000/--/70/50 50 300 150 90000 45K 105K FULL
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So he's dead, but by only 256 hit points. If all I did was hit dull pain before before I went afk my brute is still alive even in your impossible no regen situation.
In actuality he'd regen 47,400 hit points with dull pain on auto and an about 78% up-time without hasten and 10,845 healed in 9 activations of the power.
58,245 damage recovered and only 2250 taken. Yeah, he's alive.
The real difference comes in on multiple mobs, let's say 6 of your Lt.'s.
We'll give your WP 170 hp/sec, which is a very, very good number for full RttC and much more than 6 mobs worth.
My Invuln gets hit 6*2250 = 13,500 damage, easily recovered by my 58,245 of regen and dull pain's healing.
Your WP gets hit 6*45,000 = 270,000 damage, but you only regen 255,000. He's DEAD by 15,000 points of damage.
It would take over 25 of these Lt.'s to kill my Invuln. Agro cap is what? 17 or 20? It's definitely less that 25.
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Better tohit debuff resistance numbers on FA and better Perception bonus numbers as well. If you have maneuvers anyway, and the end to run tactics or FA either equally well, and you don't expect your teammates to be close or solo a lot, FA wins hands down. Especially since you can toggle it off against many enemies, and tactics and FA use the same end when toggled off..|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
Why take Focused Accuracy when you could get both Maneuvers and Tactics for about the same end/sec.
Seriously, I don't know why anyone ever uses it. |
Granted, there aren't a lot of times when I'd take FA over Tactics, but it does happen.
I too have found that end drainers that also have hefty -recovery tend to hit WP a little harder. Partly since the Invul has more def debuff res the WP can get below the energy def softcap much more easily than my Invul can. So I've had all the toggles drop on my WP more often than on my Invul. And my invul with no toggles just auto powers and set bonuses seems a tad tougher than my WP in the same boat.
Granted, that's a WAY outlying circumstance, but it is there. Of course, the terrorize balances things nicely, so in my opinion, it's still all a matter of preference...
Disclaimer: My multi bllion inf build WP and Invul I'm comparing are tanks, and not brutes. But I'd expect a similar comparison to hold true in a brute conversion.
And, to continue the discussion of WP regen vs Invul regen, assuming you're talking consistant damage over time, most any high end Invul will be healing 1000-1500 extra HP every 2 minutes, appx, which should sorta be counted into the equation, as HP gained over time, even if it's not 'regen' per se.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I don't think that's true. I'm certain I've read that the streak breaker does NOT force mobs to hit players.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but this is incorrect. Mobs use exactly the same hit mechanics players do. They have different sources for some of the attributes they share with players, such as level- and rank-based accuracy bonuses for mobs under +6 to the player, but once all the attributes are collected, the final computation and random roll is managed identically for mobs and players, including the streak breaker.
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As has been noted, the streak breaker forcing hits on a soft-capped character happens so infrequently that I can't imagine it causing any kind of crisis.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I took this into account on my previous posts. Dull pain would heal nearly 11,000 hit points over the course of the 25 minutes on auto, without hasten.
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Originally Posted by Madadh
And, to continue the discussion of WP regen vs Invul regen, assuming you're talking consistant damage over time, most any high end Invul will be healing 1000-1500 extra HP every 2 minutes, appx, which should sorta be counted into the equation, as HP gained over time, even if it's not 'regen' per se.
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Ahhh. I assumed you picked 80/s because it was the actual number my brute has,|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
I picked 80 hp/s as a random number. Even at 200 hp/s (which iirc is about the most you can get even on a WP tank) the regen is doing less for you than your defense and resistances.
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which is why I listed 65-80/s earlier as realistic /WP values.
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
This part is completely untrue.
2 words: Rebirth Radial Any character, regardless of AT. Just grind Lambda. |
Hmmmm. I guess by that categorization, the same is true for Defense in a single
word: Barrier
That should save players a lot of inf buying Kinetic Combat IOs they no longer
need.
Or put another way, both of those powers are excellent, but I think you'd
agree that no defense advocates would say "Forget Def, just get Barrier".
The same would be true for regen advocates regarding Rebirth, except on an AT
that can't actually get any appreciable amount of regen.
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Lets go back to your mock Lt. and an Invuln with no regen, Fourspeed, and insert my actual SS/Invuln build on live.... <snip> So he's dead, but by only 256 hit points. |
or you have it on auto. For all practical intents and purposes, DP (or any heal) is
simply regen, abeit not continuous. Depending on your slotting, starting HP, and
recharge, DP works out loosely to ~5-10HP/s on average.
Otoh, in the same scenario, the /WP Brute can sleep through it.
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The real difference comes in on multiple mobs, let's say 6 of your Lt.'s. We'll give your WP 170 hp/sec, which is a very, very good number for full RttC and much more than 6 mobs worth. The real difference comes in on multiple mobs, let's say 6 of your Lt.'s. We'll give your WP 170 hp/sec, which is a very, very good number for full RttC and much more than 6 mobs worth. My Invuln gets hit 6*2250 = 13,500 damage, easily recovered by my 58,245 of regen and dull pain's healing. Your WP gets hit 6*45,000 = 270,000 damage, but you only regen 255,000. He's DEAD by 15,000 points of damage. It would take over 25 of these Lt.'s to kill my Invuln. Agro cap is what? 17 or 20? It's definitely less that 25. |
SS/Inv is just as dead - as the prior example shows. And since you're allowed
DP, the SS/WP could add a mere 3% of Defense (say, a Steadfast IO), and
take the rest of the day off, even in the 6 Lt. scenario. Problem Solved.
So again, we come full circle. Both toons are quite impressive, and defense
strategies (to some degree) are interchangeable from an effectiveness viewpoint.
Having a good mix of them is as good or better than relying on a single
strong one.
The one wrinkle in the scenario that you didn't mention, is one of the two things
I stated in my very first post that can kill the /WP - an Alpha Strike.
In this case, 6 guys (if they all hit) would do 3600 dmg, of which 1800 would
count. He'd need 360/s regen to recover that before the next attack round.
So, the Alpha would very likely kill him on two successive rounds, if they both hit.
That IS an issue that up-front Defense is very good at mitigating.
Your example illustrates that little gotcha in the build quite clearly.
In any case, I think we've beat the topic up pretty good. Certainly the OP should
have a pretty good sense of the relative strengths of each AT by now.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Both Barrier and Rebirth can be made permanent in the 4th tier, and while the benefits decay, the average benefits are huge.
I'll go back to my post on the first page, since I think we're finally done with the craziness.
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
It is really a moot point though. Either one can be made much tougher than you will ever need, even before you add all the Incarnate craziness.
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True, and at levels below L45 they completely cease to exist, not to mention|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
Both Barrier and Rebirth can be made permanent in the 4th tier, and while the benefits decay, the average benefits are huge.
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having zero benefit throughout your toon's entire leveling career.
Excellent powers - Bad substitutes for either Defense or Regen in the build.
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Quote: Originally Posted by MajorTractor It is really a moot point though. Either one can be made much tougher than you will ever need, even before you add all the Incarnate craziness. |
preclude both Barrier and Rebirth.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
If I'm reading this Paragonwiki article correctly, at less the 20% to hit the Streak breaker will force a hit after 100 misses. So yeah, very, very infrequently.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Point taken. In my defense, I probably did read it somewhere; it just wasn't true. :P
As has been noted, the streak breaker forcing hits on a soft-capped character happens so infrequently that I can't imagine it causing any kind of crisis. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Inv has 3 toggles of its own. Totaling .73 end/sec resting consumption.
If you toss on Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping it goes to 1.44 end/sec.
Completely unslotted for ANYTHING.
Horrible endurance issue? That's horrible on par with waking up an hour later than you wanted to on a day you have nothing scheduled to do. Or getting a steak medium well instead of medium. Or paying $3.95 for gas then being told that if you'd driven another 20 miles, you'd have found a place selling it for $3.94.
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