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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Thats the thing with Layer mitigation. You have to consider ALL the options.
If you start taking those things out, then your argument fails immediately. |
Fixed that for ya.
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Just my 2cents:
I lean towards WP. Invulnerbilty gives you great toughness. Regeneration gives you great healing. Will Power gives you a great middle ground, however, like most middle-of-the-road choices it is not as extreme.
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| Your example is not useful, because it relies on imaginary circumstances. |
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One small problem. Your argument is completely invalid. You're relying on an impossible scenario to make your point. NO character in the game has NO regeneration. Plain and simple. |
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| Yes, what they said, and giving the Inv "no regen" totally distorts the scenario -- a minion doing 1 hit point a week would eventually bring him down. |
Forest, trees, guys.
Yes. It is a contrived example to illustrate a point. It is true. ALL characters
have some level of regen, and ALL characters have some level of Def, typically
in addition to the simple 5% ToH floor and the implied 50% def (the inverse of the
base 50% ToH for a standard mob).
You could put a spreadsheet together to account for all that detail and end up
verifying the point, which is: SS/Inv (and any +Def build) *must* stay actively
involved or they will die. In many cases an SS/WP with high regen has total immunity
in the same circumstances.
If your high defense character (be it SS/Inv or something else), has default,
or low regen, let it stand in aggro range of a Rikti Pylon. Then, hands off the keyboard.
With only a 5% or so ToH against you, the Pylon will still kill you. It may well
take some time, maybe quite a lot of time, but the end result is not in doubt.
It won't kill the SS/WP brute with high regen, no matter how long it stands there.
In my specific case, it won't kill my SS/Inv either, but that's because it *doesn't* have
low regen. It absolutely *does* kill my softcapped Night Widow (even with ~12 HP/s
regen). If that number was a little bit higher, say 20 or so, it would probably
be fine unless two unlucky back to back hits occurred (it's also squishier than
either of the brutes)
As I said in my very first post, BOTH of these Brutes are PvE DemiGods, and we're
splitting hairs. But SS/WP *can* have complete immunity in circumstances where
the SS/Inv cannot, and CDF affects it far more than it does my SS/WP.
For me, that's enough to tip the scales toward it. YMMV.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Been there. Done that. My build is soft-capped with one enemy in range. As such, he doesn't get hit all that much. I've basically camped in front of a pylon for over an hour on my tank.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
If your high defense character (be it SS/Inv or something else), has default, or low regen, let it stand in aggro range of a Rikti Pylon. Then, hands off the keyboard.
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With my brute, he's soft-capped with a single enemy in range. I've never really stood him in the pylons for more than about 10 minutes (boredom). Again, no appreciable loss of HP that regen didn't take care of.
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| With only a 5% or so ToH against you, the Pylon will still kill you. It may well take some time, maybe quite a lot of time, but the end result is not in doubt. |
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| It won't kill the SS/WP brute with high regen, no matter how long it stands there. |
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In my specific case, it won't kill my SS/Inv either, but that's because it *doesn't* have low regen. It absolutely *does* kill my softcapped Night Widow (even with ~12 HP/s regen). If that number was a little bit higher, say 20 or so, it would probably be fine unless two unlucky back to back hits occurred (it's also squishier than either of the brutes)
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| As I said in my very first post, BOTH of these Brutes are PvE DemiGods, and we're splitting hairs. But SS/WP *can* have complete immunity in circumstances where the SS/Inv cannot, and CDF affects it far more than it does my SS/WP. |
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50% defense debuff resistance on Invuln and only 17% on WP means that catastrophic defense failure effects WP more.
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Originally Posted by FourSpeed
As I said in my very first post, BOTH of these Brutes are PvE DemiGods, and we're
splitting hairs. But SS/WP *can* have complete immunity in circumstances where the SS/Inv cannot, and CDF affects it far more than it does my SS/WP. |
With perma-Dull Pain I can achieve regeneration totals on my Invulnerability scrapper in the mid 30's. And the Destiny heal adds an enormous amount of regeneration if you choose to go with that. Psy defense is also available in certain expensive sets. So it just seems slightly easier to shore up holes in Invulnerability than in Willpower. Increasing defense based on the size of mobs, capped hit points, capped S/L resistance, good -def resistance, good resistance to other more exotic damage - that stuff can be more challenging to get. So I would also give a slight edge to Invulnerability.
I was actually just came back to post the opposite Mallard. It's my feeling that overall Willpower is much easier (and less expensive) to make awesome. It's highs may not be as high, but it's holes aren't as big, and a little bit of help goes a long long way in terms of IO sets and WP.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Hardly quibbling; you're arguing in bad faith.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Here we go. Let the quibbling commence.
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You could put a spreadsheet together to account for all that detail and end up verifying the point, which is: SS/Inv (and any +Def build) *must* stay actively involved or they will die. In many cases an SS/WP with high regen has total immunity in the same circumstances. |
Assume ten mobs, all hitting for 500 lethal damage every 5 seconds, with 50% tohit. The Inv brute regens 15 hp/sec, with 70% S/L resist and 45% S/L defense. WP brute regens 100 HP/sec, with 50% S/L resist and 25% S/L defense.
Per volley, the Inv brute takes .5 hits, meaning half the time the volley misses him completely. Averaged out, the Inv brute takes .5 * .3 * 500 = 75 damage per volley. Our WP brute, meanwhile, takes, on average, 2.5 hits per volley, for a total of 2.5 * .5 * 500 = 625 damage per volley. Suddenly, things look bad for our WP. Our Inv brute can handle this; he regens 75 HP back every 5 seconds, so on average he can take this forever. Our WP brute, however, is screwed. He can only heal back 500 hp every 5 seconds, which is nowhere near enough to keep him alive. If these mobs can debuff defense, as is very common with lethal damage, then the WP brute goes down even faster, while the Inv brute has no problem at all.
Does this mean that WP is clearly inferior to Inv? Of course not. It only means that like you, I can dream up situations that paint one powerset to be superior, while ignoring the way the game actually plays out. In actual gameplay, this situation means that the Inv brute can brawl everything do death while doing /e newspaper between swings, while the WP needs to beat some furious *** to kill the baddies before they kill him. That's how the game actually works; you need to live long enough to do unto them before they do unto you. Situations exist for all sets that make this a challenge.
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If your high defense character (be it SS/Inv or something else), has default, or low regen, let it stand in aggro range of a Rikti Pylon. Then, hands off the keyboard. With only a 5% or so ToH against you, the Pylon will still kill you. It may well take some time, maybe quite a lot of time, but the end result is not in doubt. |
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As I said in my very first post, BOTH of these Brutes are PvE DemiGods, and we're splitting hairs. But SS/WP *can* have complete immunity in circumstances where the SS/Inv cannot, and CDF affects it far more than it does my SS/WP. |
Bottom line is, your examples and situations are not useful. The sets are not designed to stand in mobs and do nothing; creating artificial situations where the character does nothing at all proves nothing at all. We do agree that both sets are PvE monsters, and more than up to most tasks. There's no need to artificially disadvantage one set to make the other look better; they both stand very well on their own.
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For the first, more regen. For the second, more defense as IIRC WP has no DDR.|
Originally Posted by Sparda13
So, how would WP counteract -regen and defense debuffs before alpha slot abilities?
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One other thing - one of WP's main defenses is RttC - if you get one massive hit of mez - enough to mez you for even a secon - RttC goes down. And it does happen. And that's because of it's foe debuff making it not a suppressing toggle unlike Inv's taunt aura.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Assuming a decent build, no invul should have trouble AFKing indefinitely with a rikti pylon attacking him.
Lemur
I agree completely with your claim that Willpower is much easier and cheaper to make awesome. And I suspect for the majority of builds Willpower is a much better bang for the buck. But it seems that once you cross into the "super-awesome" realm you can throw money at Invulnerability more effectively than you can throw money at Willpower. You can buy regen and psy defense but you can't buy -def resistance for example. So I think the money spent on the build is a big factor in answering the OP's question. Willpower probably outperforms on "normal" builds while Invulnerability probably outperforms on the highest level builds. But that is just my gut feeling from playing the two sets.
Terror resistance is certainly one plus for Willpower!
Mallard
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No, I am not.| Hardly quibbling; you're arguing in bad faith. |
What you are failing to grasp are two simple ideas.
1> NO Def + High Regen > High Def and NO regen
2> HP, Def, Resist, Regen *blend* to affect Total Survival.
For point #1, simple math clearly proves that - Dead vs Full Health is about
as clear cut as it can be.
Point #2 really muddies the waters, because basically it means that mixing those
various attributes to the degree your AT can, will be (for practical in-game purposes)
similarly effective. As has been pointed out, ALL ATs can do that with all of those
attributes to varying degrees.
I find it amusing that everyone regaling me with tales of how their AT's survive
the Pylon Challenge also point out that they have *significant* amounts of regen
which actually make it possible.
Imagine that.
Given that we can't seem to progress past the basics of those two simple
concepts listed above, I'll just simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.
But, I'll also fall back on history. For those that have been here since the beginning,
the GDN was the big Defense nerf. It's remembered well, because it hit everyone.
What is not remembered so well, is that from I1 through I3 or maybe I4, Regen
sets were repeatedly nerfed with several patches to the point where it became
a standing community joke.
Why? Because the devs evidently understand the concept I'm trying to illustrate
significantly better, it appears, than many of the responders in this thread.
Go Figure.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Well, DUH.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
No, I am not.
What you are failing to grasp are two simple ideas. 1> NO Def + High Regen > High Def and NO regen |
One problem though.
The first part is easily possible. The second is an impossibility in the game.
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| 2> HP, Def, Resist, Regen *blend* to affect Total Survival. |
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| For point #1, simple math clearly proves that - Dead vs Full Health is about as clear cut as it can be. |
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| Point #2 really muddies the waters, because basically it means that mixing those various attributes to the degree your AT can, will be (for practical in-game purposes) similarly effective. As has been pointed out, ALL ATs can do that with all of those attributes to varying degrees. |
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| I find it amusing that everyone regaling me with tales of how their AT's survive the Pylon Challenge also point out that they have *significant* amounts of regen which actually make it possible. |
O-kaaaaay!
Imagine that.
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| Why? Because the devs evidently understand the concept I'm trying to illustrate significantly better, it appears, than many of the responders in this thread. |
Your point is not incorrect. Merely useless.
As if you were telling me that your brute was tougher because you could kill L1 snakes faster than my brute could kill Hamidon.
Go Figure.
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Nobody is failing to grasp that. What you are failing to grasp is that there is no AT or powerset combo that has "NO regen" and accordingly, your examples are meaningless. I and others have said from the start that regen is one piece of the puzzle, and that as defense and resistance increase, you need less and less regen to make up the slack. You keep responding with "but if you have NO regen then the character with regen wins!" which is not in question. It's also not relevant, because there is no defensive set that has no regen. Even completely unslotted, every character gets the benefit of their base regen + health. Given sufficient defense and resistance, that base regen can be enough to survive. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
No, I am not.
What you are failing to grasp are two simple ideas. 1> NO Def + High Regen > High Def and NO regen 2> HP, Def, Resist, Regen *blend* to affect Total Survival. |
So yes, in your imaginary world where there exists a defensive set with zero (not even base!) regen, that set is in trouble and can't stand up. Luckily, that doesn't exist outside your convoluted examples, and so the rest of us realize that regen is not the most important factor in a set's survivability.
The reason Regen (the set) was nerfed repeatedly prior to the GDN is not because regen is the be-all end-all of defensive abilities. It was because Regen (the set) was far out of whack with what the devs wanted in the game.
You've got some very strange ideas that make no sense, and I think you overestimate your understanding of how the game actually works. If you can't see why it's worthless to compare sets using situations that literally do not exist, then I guess we will indeed have to agree to disagree.
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I haven't read the whole thread yet, but this is incorrect. Mobs use exactly the same hit mechanics players do. They have different sources for some of the attributes they share with players, such as level- and rank-based accuracy bonuses for mobs under +6 to the player, but once all the attributes are collected, the final computation and random roll is managed identically for mobs and players, including the streak breaker.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I don't think that's true. I'm certain I've read that the streak breaker does NOT force mobs to hit players.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Specifically responding to the thread, the highs to which the two sets can be taken are so high that the question will necessarily lead to a bit of arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That said, I give a very small margin to WP. While it is weaker to burst damage, it otherwwise tends to suffer less from conditional effects, such as Terror or Psionic damage. Even that though is a controversial comparison, since it's a highly personal decision whether someone would rather their character be godly against extremely common damage types while being more vulnerable to slightly exotic ones.
Really where I give WP the biggest nod is in the structure of the powers as you level up, which isn't where this discussion is primarily focused. With Quick Recovery and a nice layering of defenses, WP is very nice to actually play to 50, where Invuln has highs and lows as you go through getting things like the passives, which I think a strong Invuln build does want.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It's not meaningless. It's actually an approach used quite frequently in things|
Originally Posted by Emberly
Nobody is failing to grasp that. What you are failing to grasp is that there is no AT or powerset combo that has "NO regen" and accordingly, your examples are meaningless.
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like modeling, calculus and other scenarios along the lines of "examine the effect
as some Variable approachs some arbitrary Limit" (in this case, variables Def and
Regen with a limit of zero).
For purposes of this discussion, I'd consider 5 HP/s or less as low regen.
It's about what my blaster has (iirc), and it doesn't even replenish him
between fights, let alone contribute significantly to his combat surviablility.
I'd say 10-30 HP/s would be significant, and high for some ATs.
30+ is high for all but Regen sets, and 50+ is very high and typically not achievable
except in Regen sets.
SS/WP can get 65/s easily, and 80/s definitely vs a single mob.
My SS/Inv is around 25/s (iirc), and its effect is quite clear.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
The reason Regen (the set) was nerfed repeatedly prior to the GDN is not because regen is the be-all end-all of defensive abilities. It was because Regen (the set) was far out of whack with what the devs wanted in the game.
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characters, and prior to the purple patch, were farming purple con mobs, and
in general, were immune to most (if not all) of the PvE content. THAT is what
the Devs didn't like about the set.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Specifically responding to the thread, the highs to which the two sets can be taken are so high that the question will necessarily lead to a bit of arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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thread is at this point.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Really where I give WP the biggest nod is in the structure of the powers as you level up, which isn't where this discussion is primarily focused. With Quick Recovery and a nice layering of defenses, WP is very nice to actually play to 50, where Invuln has highs and lows as you go through getting things like the passives, which I think a strong Invuln build does want.
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timeframe vs S/L mobs and solid against everything else, using mostly frankenslotted
sets and commons.
My /Inv never really got that feel until much higher level and a much more complete build.
At L50, they're both at the "Angels on a Pin" phase, and are by far, the 2 toughest
characters that I have (of a rather large number of toons).
So, coming full circle to the OP, either (or both) will be very, very good, and
determining which is "better" is really going to depend on how you define "better".
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Ahh Uber, that's a good call on the terrorize thing. I do find it infuriating when my Inv brute gets terrorized or confused, because my WP brute just kinda goes buh? wuh? and carries on over those kinda things.
The problem with relying on Regen is that it is a static amount of mitigation. Defense and Resistance scale with damage. The more damage that comes at you, the more they benefit you. Your 80 hp/sec per second will only ever give you 80 hp/sec.
This is why everyone makes builds with high defense. It makes the most difference in your character's survivability based on investment.
You can soft cap Invuln to S/L/E/N/F/C, have ~3000 hitpoints, and still have better resists than WP to everything but psi (except maybe either F/C or E/N resist no mids in front of me.)
WP is easier to play leveling up, exemps down very well, and sees huge benefits from small amounts of IO investment. Still, on super high end, no budget builds Invuln is TOUGHER, but in no way does that neccessarily make it better.
This is actually something more than just an academic question for me. My friend Multiple Girl II's favorite character was a softcapped spines/invulnerable scrapper, who could tank pretty much anything (had tanked on STF several times, for example, including a 4-main STF that we ran one night). MG also solo'd most of the TFs with this toon.
When I decided a couple of months ago to build my own spines scrapper, I decided to go the Willpower route:
Just finished the build tonight. With softcapped smashing/lethal and near-softcapped energy/neg energy, I'm very curious to see how capable my spines scrapper is, as compared to what MG could do. ^_^
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Nice. You may see a little trouble tanking groups with really vicious defense debuffs (massed Cimerorans, etc). But eating an occasional purple here and there should get you through no problem. For everything else, you're about as unkillable as you can get. And what does get by your defenses and resists should regen quite safely.
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Originally Posted by Organica
When I decided a couple of months ago to build my own spines scrapper, I decided to go the Willpower route:
Just finished the build tonight. With softcapped smashing/lethal and near-softcapped energy/neg energy, I'm very curious to see how capable my spines scrapper is, as compared to what MG could do. ^_^ |
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One thing I noted comparing my WP tanker and my Inv scrapper is that the WP can get in danger from end drain and recovery debuffs, while my Invuln can pretty much ignore those effects anymore. Augurs and the other seers in the trials who deal Psi damage are oddly more dangerous to my WP tanker than my Invuln scrapper. I picked up Ageless on my tanker now though, so that has pretty much closed that gap.|
Originally Posted by Organica
Just finished the build tonight. With softcapped smashing/lethal and near-softcapped energy/neg energy, I'm very curious to see how capable my spines scrapper is, as compared to what MG could do. ^_^
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As to the two sets, I have to stick with my original comment, both good, choose by personal preference.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Yeah, I have a 50 Invul scrapper and a 50 Invul tank, and a 40 Invul brute, so I'm familiar with both sets. ^_^ In fact MG sort of went with an Invul scrapper after asking me about them, but by that point I was already building my WP and Shield scrappers and didn't play my Invul that much anymore.
Tiffany Blackheart and Nina Ballerina are both WP scrappers and a lot of fun to play, but I didn't try to softcap anything on them. Still they're very tough. I'd like to have a WP brute or tank someday.
Honesty, I think I prefer my shield scrappers over everything... but shield can be very expensive to outfit... and you still suffer the pains of being mostly defense-based: untouchable until something can touch you, and then you die quickly. ^_^ I can handle ITF though, might even be able to solo it I think, but trying to solo in the warehouse on a Lambda can get me killed. ^_^
My main problem with Invulnerability isn't so much the psi hole... that's just something you have to deal with, it doesn't come up all that often... but it's the horrible endurance issues the set has. But I haven't worked hard at incarnating my Invulnerable toons much, I'm sure those problems can be made to go away. ^_^
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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This is something I've never understood. Inv runs less toggles than any other tanker set, for less end/s than any other tanker set, yet somehow gets stuck with a reputation of being end heavy.
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Originally Posted by Organica
it's the horrible endurance issues the set has
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They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
Thats the thing with Layer mitigation. You have to consider ALL the options.
If you start taking those things out, then your argument fails pretty quickly.