Because Scrappers Love Math: Kinetic Melee - Scrapper vs. Stalker

Why am I asking this? Simple; Energy Aura.

I can either wait until Freedom goes live in a ... few months, or I can do an early KM/EA Stalker and live with the "trolololugimpedscrapper" shenanigans.

In a flat damage comparison, Stalkers aren't too terribly behind Stalkers. They're definitely squishier, but we'll ignore that for the time being. Thusly, I am curious about one major thing;

The 'forced criticals' of Placate, causing a refresh of Build Up with Concentrated Strike. Is there any remote net-gain of overall damage in doing so, considering the animation times associated? If I recall, Power Siphon grants more DPS over time than Build Up does, by a decent margin.

With a decent level of Recharge, Placate can sit around 15 seconds, and Power Siphon at 30 seconds. We'll likely use this as our basis for the comparison.

Ultimately, I'm expecting 'reduced DPS' from Stalker KM, even with the forced Build Up's and other such things. The curiosity is, just how much is being lost? If it's a slight difference, I may go for the KM/EA Stalker by merit of excitement for the future. If it's too substantial, I'd opt to wait for Freedom.

If I recall, however, Stalkers have superior AoE damage by merit of Forced Burst criticals, and Forced Fireball criticals should they rather that route. So that may be one thing to note.

If anyone is able to generate the given numbers, that would be superb. I can normally do DPS comparisons myself, but factoring things like Power Siphon Upkeep, and Build Up Upkeep, begin to confuse me.

For the sake something to base off of, we'll place Placate at a 15 Second Cooldown, which if I'm right, has Power Siphon at around a 30 Second Cooldown.

Thanks in advanced! Or simply helping me learn how to do all this is fine, too.

If I am on a larger team, I still use Placate + Burst for the 100% critical damage. The new build up refresh is very fun to play with as you constantly try to count the seconds. Even if Stalker's build up feature does less damage, build up still provides more tohit buff? And because of this buff, I no longer open with Assassin strike.

I am curious to see detailed analysis of the two versions.

Stalker's biggest survival gap is Health Cap. Scrapper is at about 2400 and Stalker is only at 1600 which is at the same level as most squishies.

Energy Aura has a great god-mode. Scrapper will enjoy way more from the god-mode than Stalker.

(although in issue 21, Stalker will have a stun aura to provide more survival (stacking stun is going to be better for Kin/EA!). I just don't know if it has "damage self" portion or not)

I've been thinking the same thing, but I will roll a brute KM/EM to get a general feel for the combo. I'm guessing in the end I will make a new scrapper.

Not that I compared to Scrappers, but here's a quote from a post I made in the Stalker forums, using a chain that someone else provided in the thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siolfir For fun: Not that it's likely to happen but just for giggles, let's say that Build Up recharges every time you use Concentrated Strike (note that either chain will fit into a BU window) KM + BU: add 1.320 (BU's animation time adjusted for Arcanatime) for a total chain time of 9.636. Since SB is the next attack, it'll start with a stacked BU. SB: (1.1) * (82.30 * (1.0 base + 1.0 slotting + 0.8 BU)) = 253.484 SB: (1.1) * (82.30 * (1.0 base + 1.0 slotting + 1.6 BU)) = 325.908 BB: (1.1) * (64.51 * (1.0 base + 1.0 slotting + 0.8 BU)) = 198.6908 QS: (1.1) * (46.71 * (1.0 base + 1.0 slotting + 0.8 BU)) = 143.8668 CS: (1.0) * (197.97 * (1.0 base + 1.0 slotting + 0.8 BU)) = 554.316 Total damage: 253.484 + 325.908 + 198.6908 + 143.8668 + 554.316 = 1476.2656 / 9.636 = 153.203 DPS while accounting for criticals, 100% damage slotting, and with BU recharging every time you hit CS - essentially a perma-BU situation. So there you go, in a best-case scenario KM can do significantly more damage than EM*, and do it while not damaging itself with ET. So what does this prove? EM needs to be buffed. Bring back old Energy Transfer! * - although on the average EM is going to do more damage than KM, and MA and DM with similar investments will put out similar results

The numbers assume the Stalker is solo, so a flat 10% critical rate, but no damage procs; as mentioned the assumption is that Build Up recharges every time CS lands. For more details on the chain you can check the thread - the post was in response to whether or not KM did more sustained damage than EM, thus the comments below and the footnote which was also quoted.

If nothing else it'll give you a basis to start until someone posts better numbers and shows the Scrapper blowing these numbers away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

. . . I win at typing! That aside.


Hrm. I've seen KM/ELA and KM/SR pushing 200-300 DPS, for Scrappers. Depending on how often Power Siphon is adorable.

Curious, this. Looks like it'd be more worthwhile to wait.

I remember that KM > EM thread, i was one of the ones who provided numbers on how effective KM is when compared to EM (comparable single target damage, without the self damaging, but KM pulls ahead on AoE)

But when it comes to scrappers vs stalkers, in sustained damage situations (like AVs/pylons, etc) scrappers will pull ahead, no doubt about it. In burst damage situations, the stalker may have a chance, but only if said enemy dies before the scrappers gets full power siphon, and before the stalkers's BU falls off.. Maybe the containment chambers and weapon caches in Lambda fall under that. but just maybe.

Honestly, I've leveled more Stalker to 50 (I never power level or farm exp) than any other melee ATs combined and I can say Stalker is ONLY good at ganking the weak. Assassin Strike's design is only good at taking out trash enemies. There are some specific situations where Stalker shines a bit (taking out Sapper, Night Widow, etc) but majority of the time, Stalker is only good at ganking the weak, including PvP.

Hum. Here's what I managed for KM/ELA, No Purple Rule, and a Tier 3 Alpha (Spiritual).

Unsure of what the choice of Destiny would be. Ageless for more recharge is always nice. Barrier to help push my resistances further and have some paltry defense is good. Rebirth is a decent "O SHIZ" button. Hum.

I am saddened at my lack of Focused Burst by a "It looks spiffy!" aspect, even though I know the power is worse than Quick Strike. But that aside...

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Scrapper vs Stalker:


Stalkers need way WAY moar damage, period.

I firmly believe stalkers should have their melee damage scalar raised to 1.25, AND have their damage cap increased by 100 percent. NOBODY should out-damage a stalker, except maybe a blaster. NOBODY.

At the same time, scrappers should get their damage cap raised by 100 percent, and tankers should have their resistance cap raised by 3 percent.

While we're at it, Blasters should get their damage cap raised by 100 percent too, just to keep the ranged fighters honest. Yes, that increase goes for melee damage, too.

Also while we're at it, reactive should do at LEAST 50 percent more damage per tick on no-pet classes. Freakin' masterminds make me tired.

Reactive stacks, but its such a low value, that is pretty much not noticeable (except for the DoT)

its a -2.5% resistance debuff, that stacks 4 times, for a total of -10%.. not a huge DPS increase.

Now, the DoT stacks 4 times as well, per attack, and ticks up to 8 times (its an 80% chance per Damage affect, so really you'll never see all 8 ticks doing off) but it does provide some pretty hefty damage numbers over time.

My main is a Fire/SR Scrapper (oh how I wish stalkers were given fire melee) and he has the reactive tier 4 but the -res75%/dmg 25%. I understand that the level of the difference of attainable damage as a scrapper compared to a stalker is something a stalker most of the time can't out do. And while this might be the wrong section of the forums to say this on (if it's taken that way) I was still curious if the Reactive Interface does help with the stalker's single target damage compared to Scrappers.

Before I get the "Scrappers always out do Stalkers and here's why" posts, I do already know that pretty well as Scrappers and Stalkers are my favorite classes next to Brutes and Blasters. Scrappers do out do Stalkers but the Reactive Interface does help with the pain Stalkers share doesn't it? I mean with single target damage at least, considering Stalkers are a little stymied with AoE moves. I figure Reactive at least helps a small bit while Scrappers are currently leading the pack ahead of them.