I completely get where this is coming from being an avid forum reader, and I think you made your point. Just wondering what do you think the time would have been with the pets ?
I have a empath Psi just sitting at level 38 for 6 years, lucky I didn't delete him.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
*low whistle* Wow, I am IMPRESSED! I'm usually the jerk who tells people "Empaths can't solo AVs, they haz no debuffs!" I guess with Interface Debuffs, recharge and some decent defense, anything's possible! Great job, care to share your build?
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Empathy is one of the weakest primaries offensively. That you can solo an AV with it doesn't mean it isn't. Any other primary (except maybe FF) could have done the same thing, under the same conditions, but faster and probably safer.
I'm not trying to detract from your achievement, congratulations on the AV solo. I'm just saying it doesn't prove Empathy is not weak offensively. It is. It has no debuffs, it has nothing to boost your own damage, the only thing it contributes to your solo ability are the three auras which help keep your health and endurance bars up.
When you bring Lore pets into the equation, you get a very different result due to the buff-heavy nature of Empathy. However, that still doesn't mean Empathy is a strong set offensively. IMO It means Empathy has great synergy with summoned pets (or teammates).
Now, I'm not saying your Empath does little to no damage, that's clearly not the case. My point is that Empathy remains one of, if not the weakest Defender primaries offensively. I think all Defenders should be attacking, regardless of whether their damage could be seen as comparatively weak. Defender debuff mods on their attacks are great.
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I'm impressed. Not only did you do it with Empathy, you did it with Radiation Blast.
Quote:
While it's true that Empathy is the weakest offensively(I never claimed otherwise), my aim was to make people realize that it isn't that meaningful. Sure, a Thermal can contribute more to the team in terms of damage, but it isn't as important as some people think.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Empathy is one of the weakest primaries offensively. That you can solo an AV with it doesn't mean it isn't. Any other primary (except maybe FF) could have done the same thing, under the same conditions, but faster and probably safer.
I'm not trying to detract from your achievement, congratulations on the AV solo. I'm just saying it doesn't prove Empathy is not weak offensively. It is. It has no debuffs, it has nothing to boost your own damage, the only thing it contributes to your solo ability are the three auras which help keep your health and endurance bars up. When you bring Lore pets into the equation, you get a very different result due to the buff-heavy nature of Empathy. However, that still doesn't mean Empathy is a strong set offensively. IMO It means Empathy has great synergy with summoned pets (or teammates). Now, I'm not saying your Empath does little to no damage, that's clearly not the case. My point is that Empathy remains one of, if not the weakest Defender primaries offensively. I think all Defenders should be attacking, regardless of whether their damage could be seen as comparatively weak. Defender debuff mods on their attacks are great. |
If you bring Lore pets into the picture, Empathy arguably rivals some of the other powersets in terms of damage contribution, but that's something I'll leave to the number crunchers.
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Originally Posted by plainguy
I completely get where this is coming from being an avid forum reader, and I think you made your point. Just wondering what do you think the time would have been with the pets ?
I have a empath Psi just sitting at level 38 for 6 years, lucky I didn't delete him. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
*low whistle* Wow, I am IMPRESSED! I'm usually the jerk who tells people "Empaths can't solo AVs, they haz no debuffs!" I guess with Interface Debuffs, recharge and some decent defense, anything's possible! Great job, care to share your build?
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Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1474;717;1434;HEX;| |78DA6D934B6F125114C7EF3020A5F401142C7D591EE5511E03137561D5186B6BA24| |28BAD71658353B82D93201098C676E767F0F9014C74E7C6E7D69D2E5C184D6CD4AF| |E0636D62F070CE2D8C2281F95DFE73EEFF7FE6DE3BF9DDA521C66E9D61D2C8B9AAD| |66A1597F816AF9579D3BE5ED279ADC4ED67779AF55DBD65678CF90E6E161777B6B6| |94E51B0DCDA8ECCD76D535ADB6CDCBCA9A56D63543AFD78A8B6069B82FD42ABCC96| |B8672307016EAF5AA72BEAA6F578C411CAF37382F8FE230C735F06A55F48607FF5F| |E155DEA8370D74F42C37F49252A8DF84B43C78F3E69E1F1A4BC3EF9A85894FDBCA5| |625C65466C923AC2B884305C4C025C4FB5EB98D3D641D69E411C2FB1831A95A3A38| |F20E31F71A30C636E02A8910E9BF21E43E40591FA05C1621F2021A8D9C40784F222| |64F51C869734811AE369AC56C496CC601CB6FC7E0B66CF7A1B7EB2BCE717D4604BF| |204250E7A03A8B83A60EFE050DCA9CE42D3B170056990DFDC3390A7082D7B06863F| |8174A6E9046C9DE3A4A5587BD0417C23F8688FE869219B609616E11E6BE870D7AEE| |12EE20C2D4D4757C6C4A1A23C903493E4A62BE20ED0B48E3546519A7703F8587DD8| |808144C089B8929B9237D02E729B1015329CC9C4E13145AF90C229045C468B3C3F6| |4EF7643493C6F032DC981546B3B4F101DAE3006D7C908E413087980FE0AC12CC0A8| |9E312A282309547C923451E299AB50FE5111112798A0ED16788D873C24B44E21522| |45C7E50D3C695CAC4B1CB790B179B195077C0B3549717E920A86A5138424E138E22| |3382AA203853AC85066863AC8BC40A8D4814AEBF5048E4956AC57765CEA2CDEB4B5| |FB7AC1173E2C6756649C57B076DF262661D14AA788FA6C3B5CDD97A75D1884ABD03| |74C63CD34DE348DBFC15812C7470A63AFDFCD521CA51F3D4992AEE202A8170131F6| |B377C722DDC76613B7090F10D9BEE74BF4296A9F72AC4F39DAA75C863741158F11F| |2F6C6FB267DD5A4FF01756FF15C| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Thanks guys!
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Very impressive. If you had bet me beforehand you could solo an AV without your pets with an emp/rad, I would put all my inf on the table.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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I think this depends entirely upon whether or not the Lore pets can be affected by the +Recharge from Adrenalin Boost (as many pets cannot), and whether or not the +Recovery is helpful (some Lore pets can burn their own endurance to the ground, thus reducing their dps).|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
If you bring Lore pets into the picture, Empathy arguably rivals some of the other powersets in terms of damage contribution, but that's something I'll leave to the number crunchers.
|
Looking strictly at the offensive buffs, Fortitude grants +31.25% Damage and +18.75% ToHit, Adrenalin Boost grants +100% Recharge, and between Recovery Aura and Adrenalin Boost basically infinite endurance. This actually isn't all that much comparatively...
Kinetics, for example, provides infinite endurance, +50% Recharge, no +ToHit, but a lot more +Damage (30% per Siphon Power, 50%+25%/target for Fulcrum Shift). It's also granting moderate -Regeneration to your enemy. The big question then becomes whether or not the Recharge difference is useful (I don't know, many pets are immune to recharge changes), and whether or not the +ToHit is useful (though you can easily grab Tactics for 12.5%, something you can't really do for -Resist or -Regen).
Most sets with -Resist have about the same amount as Empathy's +Damage from Fortitude, though it varies (-35% for Freezing Rain, -30% for Sleet, etc). They often come with -Regeneration as well, which is basically free damage on top. And then there's Rad, which gets both +25% damage (as an AoE buff) and -30% Resistance in Enervating Field.
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Quote:
I think it mostly depends on what the team consists of, and yes Lore pets are affected by recharge buffs(I tested this multiple times myself).
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
I think this depends entirely upon whether or not the Lore pets can be affected by the +Recharge from Adrenalin Boost (as many pets cannot), and whether or not the +Recovery is helpful (some Lore pets can burn their own endurance to the ground, thus reducing their dps).
Looking strictly at the offensive buffs, Fortitude grants +31.25% Damage and +18.75% ToHit, Adrenalin Boost grants +100% Recharge, and between Recovery Aura and Adrenalin Boost basically infinite endurance. This actually isn't all that much comparatively... Kinetics, for example, provides infinite endurance, +50% Recharge, no +ToHit, but a lot more +Damage (30% per Siphon Power, 50%+25%/target for Fulcrum Shift). It's also granting moderate -Regeneration to your enemy. The big question then becomes whether or not the Recharge difference is useful (I don't know, many pets are immune to recharge changes), and whether or not the +ToHit is useful (though you can easily grab Tactics for 12.5%, something you can't really do for -Resist or -Regen). Most sets with -Resist have about the same amount as Empathy's +Damage from Fortitude, though it varies (-35% for Freezing Rain, -30% for Sleet, etc). They often come with -Regeneration as well, which is basically free damage on top. And then there's Rad, which gets both +25% damage (as an AoE buff) and -30% Resistance in Enervating Field. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
"/e bow"
Great job! I wouldn't have thought it possible, honestly. Props to you!
Quote:
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by TheXor
"/e bow"
Great job! I wouldn't have thought it possible, honestly. Props to you! |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Aaw... the data-chunk isn't working for me for some reason.. are you using a version besides 1.92?
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Quote:
Aye, 1.94 which you can get here: http://www.cohtitan.com/
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Aaw... the data-chunk isn't working for me for some reason.. are you using a version besides 1.92?
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Aha, that works... thanks! And yeah, that's a pretty good build! Nothing TOO fancy but it obviously works!
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Quote:
LOL, WOW what a difference.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
I just did Chimera again, with Lore pets, and it took about 50 seconds. |
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
And by AGAIN you mean you did another Level 50 Chimera (AV) in 50 seconds right?|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
...I just did Chimera again, with Lore pets, and it took about 50 seconds.
|
You didn't change it to a Level 49 Chimera (AV) (or a Level 51 Chimera (AV)) did you?
Just wondering. Some folks have been known to take liberites with this.
Congrats again on soloing the AV.
Quote:
I didn't change it to 49, and when I changed it to 50 I stated so in your thread. Stop being so suspicious! |
Originally Posted by AIB
And by AGAIN you mean you did another Level 50 Chimera (AV) in 50 seconds right?
You didn't change it to a Level 49 Chimera (AV) did you? Just wondering. Some folks have been known to take liberites with this. Congrats again on soloing the AV. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
This has all been done before.
I seem to remember an Empathy - Energy player posting AV battles some time ago,
and he used hover-blasting too.
Let me just state that : Hover + Decent Attack Chain =/= Empathy is a decent solo set
Empathy is punished for its great team usefulness by being very poorly suited to soloing.
All that things like this do is push back the date that Empathy gets some well-needed attention in the superhero department.
However, Auroxis, Congrats on the accomplishment 
Well Done !
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
I vaguely remembered that as well, but I couldn't find the video in question which inspired me to make this one.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
This has all been done before.
I seem to remember an Empathy - Energy player posting AV battles some time ago, and he used hover-blasting too. |
Quote:
|
Let me just state that : Hover + Decent Attack Chain =/= Empathy is a decent solo set Empathy is punished for its great team usefulness by being very poorly suited to soloing. All that things like this do is push back the date that Empathy gets some well-needed attention in the superhero department. |
Quote:
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However, Auroxis, Congrats on the accomplishment Well Done !
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I think PSYONICO was the Empath in question.
Not sure if the VIDs are still online though. It was some time ago.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Herein lies the problem with getting any Empathy changes into the game.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
...I don't personally think Empathy needs any buffs. With Clarion, Judgement, Reactive, IO's, and Lore pets there is nothing I feel like I really need anymore for soloing besides aggro management(mobs running around like headless chickens). I'm not denying that Empathy is a weak solo set, I'm merely trying to prove that being a weak solo set can be made insignificant with the current tools the game offers. ... |
There are a significant number of folks that think Empathy is fine, Some that don't care, And a few (like myself) that want to see improvements.
I also think that some of the ones that don't think Empathy needs a buff to soloing are saying this because they dont want their Team (or Duo) effectiveness reduced as a result of improvements. Those that don't care include a large (and very vocal) group of Healorz-haters. And most of the few calling for improvements have been drowned out by the haters.
So which group do the developers listen to ? So far, that's been pretty obvious.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Herein lies the problem with getting any Empathy changes into the game.
There are a significant number of folks that think Empathy is fine, Some that don't care, And a few (like myself) that want to see improvements. I also think that some of the ones that don't think Empathy needs a buff to soloing are saying this because they dont want their Team (or Duo) effectiveness reduced as a result of improvements. Those that don't care include a large (and very vocal) group of Healorz-haters. And most of the few calling for improvements have been drowned out by the haters. So which group do the developers listen to ? So far, that's been pretty obvious. |
I don't personally think someone soloing an AV with a Empath is a barrier to the set's design. If anything the popularity of the set is its own barrier.
IMO Empathy really does not need many changes. I would drop the recharge on Recovery Aura from 500 to around 240, and possibly make Resurrection work on living players as well as pets (instant full heal and full endurance but only available every so often). The set does not do much for soloing but I don't think soloing is the reason most people are attracted to it.
I feel that given the popularity of Empathy, we're more likely to eventually get (another) heal-based set with some modifications. That way people who enjoy the healer-style sets can have even more to play with.
Woah, that's crazy. I never thought I'd see an Emp Defender solo an AV straight up w/o pets of some kind.
Nice job!
Quote:
As always Tex, you have a great viewpoint to add to the mix.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't personally think someone soloing an AV with a Empath is a barrier to the set's design. If anything the popularity of the set is its own barrier.
IMO Empathy really does not need many changes. I would drop the recharge on Recovery Aura from 500 to around 240, and possibly make Resurrection work on living players as well as pets (instant full heal and full endurance but only available every so often). The set does not do much for soloing but I don't think soloing is the reason most people are attracted to it. I feel that given the popularity of Empathy, we're more likely to eventually get (another) heal-based set with some modifications. That way people who enjoy the healer-style sets can have even more to play with. |
I would add that a much bigger barrier to the set's ability to be improved stems from the core difference between "Buff-style" powersets and "De-Buff" powersets. This difference is more than a simple analysis of powers IMO and cannot be changed without altering the entire game drastically.
When you look at some of the newer sets being added, you can see that the developers understand this duality because they are giving us new powersets with a bit of both worlds. This allows a defender the tools to solo AND still perform their role on a team.
Will they ever re-visit Empathy's lack of enemy oriented powers ? Doubtful.
**But if they ever do, Here is my 2 cents.
Give me an Empathy version of confusion and this could dramatically alter soloing for empaths. The concept being that the empath "calms an enemy's hostile tendencies and creates 'Empathy' toward the Defender". I would make it single target and capable of confusing a Boss, rather than the AoE WoC toggle that we currently have in the game**
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
As the main naysayer in the conversation that inspired you to do this, I want to say I'm both impressed and surprised. Very nice work.
Empathy has often been touted as the weakling in the offensive defender family, the one which can't really fend for himself and contribute much to the team besides buffs.
Then all of a sudden, Empathy got a great offensive buff from Issue 20 in Lore pets, which have the potential of dishing out Tremendous amounts of DPS if buffed by an Empath. This raised the question of "Is it really considered soloing?", and some statements which imply an Empath can't really do damage without them.
Well, apparently you can do just fine without Lore pets, and I've recently created this video to prove it:
Soloing Chimera
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster