City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Smaller, better leagues

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-20 13:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy View Post
Just to jump in and defend Adeon I have teamed with him many, many times and he is definately an excellent leader. This was back when the trials were new and his instructions and patience helped many of us become good at the trials. See my post above.. Adeon IS one of the leaders I have a note card on and has as many stars as it will allow me to give.
Thank you.

 

Posted

i dont mind the large group stuff like trials, but i wish we had some trials that werent entirely based on damn timers

to me timers are an artificial difficulty and make it worse for poeple who are slow learners, new to the experience, and add un-needed pressure to newer people which could have caused several of the situations on this thread such as the one snow globe described

we NEED some trial options which arent timed for the entire freaking trial, for me personally i absolutely hate the speeding/rushing mentality that timers tend to enforce, i prefer to take a leisurely time on a tf, no timers, no rush, so you can kill a lot, kill a little, run small team for challenge, run higher diff on larger teams, ect

apex and tin mage tfs are the perfect examples of how to make a trial with 0 timers (both of the tfs require about the same time to run as most trials (20-40 min), both tfs are semi related to incarnates, and both tfs use the same rules as incarnate trials (+4 on everything, HP scaling AVs))

the only thing that differentiates the tfs from trials is they award no incarnate xp or incarnate components (only threads and astral merits from the reward table) and they require only 1 team instead of multiple teams

if they could design trials like apex and tin mage tf without using artificial difficulty of timers, i could care less if they were as god awful as the keyes trial, or use all the temp powers they wanted, like lambda but with 4+ temps instead of 2

ive never been on any particularly bad trials where poeple were cursing about using temps or anything (i have had my share of failures, but nothing catastrophic)

basically my point is, i dont care what kind of special gimmicks they use for the trial, i just hate timers and the rush/speed mentality, timers are not fun for everyone and even one non-timed trial would be more fun than the current selection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
i dont mind the large group stuff like trials, but i wish we had some trials that werent entirely based on damn timers

to me timers are an artificial difficulty and make it worse for poeple who are slow learners, new to the experience, and add un-needed pressure to newer people which could have caused several of the situations on this thread such as the one snow globe described

we NEED some trial options which arent timed for the entire freaking trial, for me personally i absolutely hate the speeding/rushing mentality that timers tend to enforce, i prefer to take a leisurely time on a tf, no timers, no rush, so you can kill a lot, kill a little, run small team for challenge, run higher diff on larger teams, ect

apex and tin mage tfs are the perfect examples of how to make a trial with 0 timers (both of the tfs require about the same time to run as most trials (20-40 min), both tfs are semi related to incarnates, and both tfs use the same rules as incarnate trials (+4 on everything, HP scaling AVs))

the only thing that differentiates the tfs from trials is they award no incarnate xp or incarnate components (only threads and astral merits from the reward table) and they require only 1 team instead of multiple teams

if they could design trials like apex and tin mage tf without using artificial difficulty of timers, i could care less if they were as god awful as the keyes trial, or use all the temp powers they wanted, like lambda but with 4+ temps instead of 2

ive never been on any particularly bad trials where poeple were cursing about using temps or anything (i have had my share of failures, but nothing catastrophic)

basically my point is, i dont care what kind of special gimmicks they use for the trial, i just hate timers and the rush/speed mentality, timers are not fun for everyone and even one non-timed trial would be more fun than the current selection

I can see your point and I agree. Its especially stressful during the glowie stage of the Lambda... YOU NOW HAVE 5 MINUTES TO COLLECT ACIDS AND GRENADES... IF YOU FAIL THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THE TRIAL WILL AS WELL SINCE YOU NEED THESE TO STOP THE FLOW OF REINFORCEMENTS AND DEBUFF (PACIFY) MAURADER I have done countless lambdas and realizes this is normally not a problem but I have seen a few where time ran out with maybe 3-4 acids and about the same or less grenades

Now on the BAF the timers tend to be almost a joke... I have never seen any tram come close to failing the phase where you defeat NS the first time. Of course Phase two is timed and while not every trial team stops every escaping prisoner very few fail. Taking out Siege solo .. same as with NS more than enough time to accomplsih it. Now on the final phase things can get interesting.. Back when the trials were semi new I was invited to a BAF and told we are farming this.. Okay I thought how does one farm a timed trial. Easy.. when we got to that final phase we purposely defeated one AV long before the other to extend our time killings adds and earning much desured IXP. The only thing you had to watch was not to let the timer get too low before you finally synced up and took both out together for the win and the empyrean.. then everyone ralized they could just BUY IXP and I haven't seen one of those in forever. LOL

Now I run on them and find them okay but honestly the whole concept of a SPEED Lambda I find a little silly. It takes what a whole extra 4-5 minutes to clear the street and take out the gun turrents as opposed to just clearing the courtyard and heading inside... but whatever. What I find interesting are the people that come out with some rally wierd statedmenst during these...

last night i was on one and a player was asking for TP. I asked if he had a raptor pack and he replied yes but he kept getting shot down by the turrent.. DUH two of us had to explain to him stay low and just barely top the wall and stay in the middle between 2 guns. I went on to tell him I had JUST flown back from hospital myself and the guns never even notioced me. I sometimes find myself thinking.. "Seriously! Just how did you manage to level that character to 50. "

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Posted

Personally I also prefer smaller league sizes, for several reasons:

* Smaller leagues earn more IXP per player. I mainly run trials for IXP, not for obscure ultra rare incarnate salvage.
* Smaller leagues are faster to get started. I don't like waiting, and waiting for a BAF to fill to the full 24 drives me crazy. If I'm leader, I shoot for recruiting the minimum league size; I'll recruit above the minimum size if there are people (who haven't earned a 1-star rating from me) still looking to join a trial, but will queue to start as soon as I can.
* Individual players make more of a difference on small leagues. You can't AFK by the door for half the trial on an 8 player Lambda. Well, you can, but people will notice. On the downside, you need better players (on the average) to succeed with a small league. But I like playing with good players, so this isn't totally a bad thing.
* Less lag.


Regarding leadership issues, if I'm leader, I try to issue instructions for every phase of the trial, so that there's always something that people should be doing, even if I know that 90% of the members of the league are veterans of the trial. Some leaders have a different strategy than others, so it helps to be clear on what we're doing, and if someone is relatively new, it helps them out too. When I'm not leader, I try to follow the instructions given by the leader (if any), unless they are conspicuously foolish.


Just my 2 inf.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman View Post
Personally I also prefer smaller league sizes, for several reasons:

* Smaller leagues earn more IXP per player. I mainly run trials for IXP, not for obscure ultra rare incarnate salvage.
* Smaller leagues are faster to get started. I don't like waiting, and waiting for a BAF to fill to the full 24 drives me crazy. If I'm leader, I shoot for recruiting the minimum league size; I'll recruit above the minimum size if there are people (who haven't earned a 1-star rating from me) still looking to join a trial, but will queue to start as soon as I can.
* Individual players make more of a difference on small leagues. You can't AFK by the door for half the trial on an 8 player Lambda. Well, you can, but people will notice. On the downside, you need better players (on the average) to succeed with a small league. But I like playing with good players, so this isn't totally a bad thing.
* Less lag.


Regarding leadership issues, if I'm leader, I try to issue instructions for every phase of the trial, so that there's always something that people should be doing, even if I know that 90% of the members of the league are veterans of the trial. Some leaders have a different strategy than others, so it helps to be clear on what we're doing, and if someone is relatively new, it helps them out too. When I'm not leader, I try to follow the instructions given by the leader (if any), unless they are conspicuously foolish.


Just my 2 inf.
Excellent post, I agree with all of that. I've done plenty of BAF and Lambda but I still like it and pay attention when the leader gives direction.

I haven't lead any trials, but I've been thinking about doing so.

 

Posted

What I am taking away from all this is:

If you are leading a trial, and do not positively know that every person in the league knows what to do because they have done it successfully before, multiple times, in your personal presence...

...explain everything as if everyone had their hand up saying, "I have never done this before" because there is someone in the league who has not done it and has no clue and is afraid to say it.

You should only relent in boring the vets with these instructions (and really, they can just tab out to minesweeper or whatever) if everyone on the league swears to you "I know I know let's get on with it already".

...is that a fair assessment?

I myself am brand new to Trials, despite being a 7 year vet here.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
What I am taking away from all this is:

If you are leading a trial, and do not positively know that every person in the league knows what to do because they have done it successfully before, multiple times, in your personal presence...

...explain everything as if everyone had their hand up saying, "I have never done this before" because there is someone in the league who has not done it and has no clue and is afraid to say it.

You should only relent in boring the vets with these instructions (and really, they can just tab out to minesweeper or whatever) if everyone on the league swears to you "I know I know let's get on with it already".

...is that a fair assessment?
No. I think there is a balance. It is the leader's responsibility to let everyone know that they can ask questions (fostering a good league is a rare talent, it seems). Yet a player new to the trial has a responsibility as well: they need to speak up when they are confused and need instructions. If those instructions are not being provided however, then yes, the leader is at fault.

It shouldn't be the default answer to tell the new player "just follow along", because we get exactly what we have on the live servers: People not doing the trials.

You can't expect people to "just know" what to do. If you do expect that as a leader, then yes, you are a bad leader. If you are in a Trial that the leader isn't helping and don't help yourself, you are reducing the amount of players that will do future trials.



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Posted

For myself, when I lead a mission/tf/trial, if I see anyone on the team I don't recognize/team with regularly (and even then I give abbreviated rundown just so all are on same page) I always state the objectives and how we go about it. I hate confusion. Communication truly is the key to any successful mish/tf/trial.

 

Posted

I'd rather run a mini any day.

Full BAFs lag waay too much, and it scales down anyways, so I don't seem the purpose behind wanting a full 24.

Mini LAMs are just fun.

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Posted

Just wanted to say, if I'm running a TF or trial I'm unfamiliar with, I always say so at the start (something to the effect of "btw, I've not run this before so let me know if there's anything important I need to know"). I've never, not once, had someone give me a hard time for doing so, not even jokingly. That's on Victory, Virtue, and Freedom, and exclusively on PuGs (I only really have one friend that logs on with any regularity, so I don't have the luxury of hand picking my teams/leagues, and nobody's hand-picking me for theirs). I've also never seen anyone else get any grief for doing that.

Hell, even in other MMOs where attitudes tend to be a lot more aggressive than here, I've not had a problem when saying up front that, "I'm new to this, what's the drill?"

People, in general, don't have a problem with newbies who are making an effort to learn and improve. Now, people who don't speak up at the start and then cause disaster through their inexperience, sometimes that brings them some flak (though in CoH I find even that to be fairly rare, unless it was something mind-bogglingly stupid or a masters badge attempt or something). There often is some hostility to the clueless if they're not making any effort to learn and improve and mess up as a result. And yeah, there's the occasional leader who's just a <insult of choice>, but they tend to be abrasive and obnoxious to everyone, not just the ones who're struggling/slacking.


So if you're reading this and are someone who's afraid to speak up when the leader asks if anyone is new to whatever trial you're on - don't be. Very few people will think less of you for it, and most will appreciate that you're giving them advance warning and be glad to bring you up to speed. At least, that's been my experience.