Looking Forward with certain sets

So with the upcoming balance adjustments to various sets, I started thinking about what else might need some looking at. So putting on my armchair designer hat, I came up with a list of sets that are underperformers compared to others of the type. Narrowing the list down to a few, for discussion purposes, I’ve got; Trick Arrow, Force Fields, Sonic Resonance.

In my opinion these sets suffer from similar issues. Sonic and Force Fields are designed to do two things well with some extra things that don’t really expand their utility thrown in every so often. Force Fields buffs defense and provides knock-based control in high levels. The problem is, when these things aren’t needed, Force Field players provide nothing else.

In a Melee heavy team, Knock based protection is a hindrance more than a help, and in large group, multi-team situations stacking defense only goes so far. In fact, a single FF defender can cap a team’s defense severely hampering the stackablility of another FF on the same team. Also in situations where knock would be valuable mitigation due to the overwhelming power of an enemy (AV) it doesn’t actually work reliably. Once you hit those breakpoints Force Fields players become a tagalongs and not teammates.

The fix seems fairly simple in my opinion. Add something else for the Force Fields player to use that improves its ability to stack in team situations as well as it’s versatility of effect in situations where the two things it does aren’t viable or needed. The target is Repulsion Bomb. A modification to this power, adding a scale 1 defense and resistance debuff and a scale 2.5 regen debuff, would vastly improve the versatility of what the set is able to do when assisting teams and its ability to stack on teams. The name might need to be changed to fit thematically, something like Disruption Bomb but that's a minor thing.

Sonic has a similar issue. It is meant to buff and debuff resistance to higher levels than other sets. However there are certain issues with that. First half of its power is only available on teams. Second they can only allow it to debuff resistance so much else it becomes just too strong. Despite that, the level of resistance debuff it gets isn’t high enough to justify it only attacking one area of the enemy’s defenses, which really hurts it when much of that power isn’t available solo. Additionally, due to the way resistance works, Sonic suffers from being less balanced when facing high resistance foes, causing it to lag behind. Sonic does -45% resist to a single enemy affected by both sonic siphon and Disruption field and -22.5% in an AoE around an ally only (So only -22.5% is available to a Sonic when there’s no allies and that just happens to be it’s AoE debuff). Storm, Trick arrow, dark, and cold follow up with -30% in AoE form, that is not dependant on having a teammate and also debuffs defense. Radiation and thermal can both match Sonic’s -22.5% in an AoE form to boot while also debuffing regen and defense, and Traps debuff at -20% but is up for a minute and is AoE and debuffs defense.

This wouldn’t be so much a problem, so long as Sonic’s buff capacity were high enough, but its not. Thermal has two shields identical to Sonic’s and trades its AoE resistance buff for an AoE heal. Thermal also possesses mez protection, and still manages to debuff more areas than Sonic. When you look at all the powers, including T9, thermal debuffs resistance by -22.5, defense by -20, regen by -500%, Damage by 50%, and maintains comparable mitigation capability. Sonic debuffs resistance by -22.5% ST solo and -45% in a team with that team-only -22.5% being AoE, and -25% defense and tohit in AoE.

What I think needs to be done for sonic, is to add -22.5% damage debuff and -200% regen debuff to the three debuff powers; Sonic Siphon, Disruption Field, and Liquefy. Also, half of the regen debuff in Sonic Siphon should stack, and maybe some of the damage debuff. This would allow sonic to compete against the versatility of the other sets, while sticking to its strengths. Against high resistance enemies, it would still struggle, but it would have –regen to assist in taking those enemies down. Against everything else it would have a –damage (that also follows the high resistance weakness), improving sonic’s ability to keep the team alive even further. It would still have the Solo/team dichotomy, but that’s acceptable when the solo debuffs do more.

As for Trick Arrow, the issues I see with it are, that it pays way too much endurance for what it does and does too little out of fear of stacking. Taking a look at disruption arrow vs, Tar Patch you see they both have the same 25’ radius, but Tar patch slows as well as debuffing resistance twice as much, yet tar patch costs 7.8 end while disruption arrow costs 14.6. Also, they both have the same uptime, but Disruption arrow has lower recharge and duration making it cost even more end/sec.

Suggestion (corruptor values): Reduce the endurance on Disruption arrow to 7.8, and up the resistance to -30% and add a -15% damage debuff. Increase the radius on acid arrow to 15’, and reduce the endurance cost on OSA to 10.4.

What do you think, does this sound about right with regard to what the issues are with these sets? Are these suggestions viable and acceptable fixes for the problems that face these sets?

Trick Arrow needs some love, but FF and Sonic don't. I think Liquefy should be on a shorter timer and that's about it.

Too many people like the sets as they are - they get to use their secondary set more often or be able to grab pool powers that they might want more, and having skippable powers helps in that situation.

There are ALOT of skippable powers in FF, that is very true, and I agree it would be nice if it had additional effects that would make them worthwhile, but like I said there might be quite a few people that prefer FF so they can blast more often.

I'd like Sonic to get something shiny. Possibly new. A buff to the set? Eh, it probably doesn't need it, to be honest.

I haven't seen many people run with Sonic, so I'd like to set to be more attractive, but not necessarily outright buffed or reworked or whatnot. I'd call it a tweak, but that's just me.

I'd like to see Super Reflexes have Quickness replaced with Energize, and have the +Recharge taunt aura that Energy Aura is getting applied to Evasion.

But that's just me. >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

I think you've got a few blind spots. I won't argue with some tweaks, but just a few standouts here to consider:

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_Valence Once you hit those breakpoints Force Fields players become a tagalongs and not teammates.

Do they use their secondary (or, in the case of a controller, primary?)

If so, they're still teammates. If not, they're leeches regardless.

Quote:

Sonic has a similar issue. It is meant to buff and debuff resistance to higher levels than other sets. However there are certain issues with that. First half of its power is only available on teams.

You're ignoring primary (or, again, controller=secondary) again. Especially post-32, where the controller can use their pet(s) as targets for a debuff, to shield them, etc. (Same with FF, though yes, there's less benefit.)

Quote:

Thermal also possesses mez protection,

See Sonic Dispersion, Clarity. And Sonic Dispersion works on *me.* Thermal offers me nothing for mez protection.

Quote:

and still manages to debuff more areas than Sonic.

... but much later in the set.

Sonic, I'm debuffing from level 1. Thermal, I have to hit 38 before I'm affecting resistance (letting me hit harder,) and 35 before I have any debuffs at all. My solo build for my Dark/Thermal? One power from Thermal for most of her "career."

Thermal gets a power that does -dmg, -end, -recovery -regen, then an AOE that does -def and -res. Sonic, meanwhile, gets powers that give you a +res (and more for teammates) - so, functionally, -dmg for the target. Nothing for end or recovery, but given you're hitting more with several -res effects, you *can* look at it as diminishing the value of their regen. And liquefy adds a -def to the mix. (Plus -tohit, knockdown and hold.) So, frankly, it doesn't really look like Thermal's doing all that much more debuffing. It debuffs one or two different areas, but not anywhere near as early or consistently as sonic does.

Honestly - and this is a general statement - it feels like so many people just want to homogenize everything with threads like this. Give us all sets that are 99% the same in values and effects, just with different effects. Blah. Boring.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Wheres the statement that they are going to be balancing sets? Anything in particular they are talking about?

i like trick arrow, it's fun, and different, but if someone wants to buff it, i won't complain

i solo way too much to get anything out of FF or Sonic, which sucks, because, thematically speaking, i love sonics as super powers. but i can't get a corr or a def going with SRes, too many team dependent powers. That being said, "oh well", that's what the sets were designed for, plenty of buff debuff sets in this game and others that are focused on teammates and not yourself. so i don't use them, why is this so hard for folks to grasp? at what point do we realize that we have become way too self centered a society, when we expect people to change everything to meat our whims? hey OP, maybe you should go spend some time with your mommy, just so you can get your "center of the universe" fix in, and stop trying to change everything else around you to suit your needs.


and, good rule of thumb; if you are on the other side of an argument from EvilRyu, you can pretty much assume you are on the side of sanity.

I tend to be slow on the news...what adjustments? Can you share a link so I can understand/catch up?

Link to the news on energy aura revamps http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265044

And /Poison is getting looked at too, but I think that was announced on a Ustream so I don't have a link to that one, but the proposed changes are in the MM forums.

EA is getting a taunt aura with a scaling recharge bonus, the heal in energy drain is being replaced with a defense buff, and conserve power is getting the energize treatment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill And as far as feeling like you're "not doing for the team the way you should," as long as you're reasonably active and trying... who cares? You, obviously, and I think it's a good attitude to have, to a point - but you also have to remember we're playing COH, here, not Left4Dead. There's not a screen at the end saying "Teammates healed - William_Valance, 3! Enemies killed... ooh, you're second last with 31 out of 5000!" There are *very* few times I've ever felt like I wasn't contributing to a team - and the case is usually something like "The lone brute on a team with five masterminds... in a set of council caves, because I can't get past the damn pets!"

I've got a sort of split personality when it comes to this game. When I play I either do one of a few things; run missions, get badges, or stand around. Seriously, I'll just stand around and watch stuff. When I'm doing that, I might be in Pocket D standing with 9 other people around a Cape DJ, or I'll find different places in the game and watch the things people do. It's a very entertaining way to spend 15-20 minutes.

When I run missions though, I want to destroy things. I team when I want a big light show, I don't when I wan't to try stupid stuff or achieve a specific goal. When I team, I expect nothing from the others on the team, except that they have fun. If they're not, there's a problem. We could be doing and ITF and they could be off with Sonic repulsion playing Cimerorian bowling for all I care, I'll solo the thing, have fun, and enjoy the fact that they're having fun. However, if a situation completely beyond my control made it so that one of the set's I chose at character creation was no longer helpful to the team, (Not counting stuff like quartz's because that's a gameplay weakness not a design limitation) I'd no longer be having fun and start getting frustrated. See my thoughts on masterminds and praet zone events.

And what I'm talking about isn't a weakness of the set, so much as a weakness in design. Like I've said a few times, I'm not considering stuff like quartz's. They are a weakness of the set. However, defense only stacks to a point before becoming unneeded. FFs brings defense and knock based control. Nothing else. In high defense situations all a FF user has is knock based control, and that can be...an issue. Adding an effect that better allows FF users to stack in high defense situations, so a FF user can always count on their primary and secondary unless they manufacture the situation, is the goal with the FF suggestion I made.

You can explain away alot of stuff. But with the theme of the set currently? Not so much...but then I was always against giving Electric and Energy Armor heals because they really didn't quite convey that theme. But I can explain those away with the character specific themes:

Elec Armor: The guy is a meta-cat transformed into part human. His ability to control the powers imbued in him form from his simple-mindedness. He does what he's told and, even in fits of rage, he can simply 'forget' he's injured which puts more faith in the power bound to him. All he has to do is roar in anger and his body will be re-energized.

Energy Aura: Well, he's a werewolf/were-cerberus. He primarily feeds on, not blood, but bloodlust. The act of killing and bleeding his foes gives him power by taking away their energy and vitality.

Eh, both lean heavily on the fact that they are 'Brutes' and they 'keep going' for some reason (rage, bloodlust, determination, etc.).

For FF and Sonic...well, FF is about shields, barriers and deflecting things. So give it powers that do that. Sonic is about disturbing atomic structures to make them unstable (I guess...that's what actual sonic resonance does to shatter wine glasses and such) so something like that.

As for Trick Arrow...I have suggested, in the past, to let you do 'tricks' with your arrows. Just like you can combine Oil Slick Arrow with fire/energy to make that fiery patch. Would be cool if Ice Arrow was changed to Crystalline Arrow and if you shoot it with light (energy or psionics), it creates a blinding flash that could stun nearby foes of the frozen target...stuff like that.

Well, if we're talking rebalancing sets, someone definitely needs to have a look at Energy Melee.

Sonic Resonance is sub-par. It just has to be said. I would never stop a person from playing it for thematic reasons but the set is underwhelming on the 4 ATs that can access it, when they could pick Thermal instead. That PITA debuff ring power with the same -Resistance as every set doesn't help things, nor do the out of the control endurance costs or lack of -Regen or mile-wide vulnerability to Psi damage.

I don't see any thematic issues against Sonic doing -dam. Vibrations capable of weakening armor can also weaken muscles and the like. Hell, it'd seem thematically questionable to me if those kinds of vibrations didn't do more than just -res. That always seemed like a rather specific debuff to have exclusively on Sonic (the blast set is fine because it does damage anyway).

-Regen, on the other hand, is definitely more questionable to me.