Stone/Fire - Granite vs no Granite

So I've gone through this board and read some of the stone threads in hopes to find my answer and I haven't really gotten a clear one.
I'm hoping that someone will be kind enough to clear it up for me a bit on this thread.

I've read and heard many arguments about taking Granite vs not taking it and getting the other armors in the set. And I guess a part of it is about play style and why I built it.

I want to have the uber-tough tank that can take on just about every TF and live to tell about it.. which is why I assume Granite is a must. I'd also like to do a bit of farming either with portals in PI or AE, but that is a far secondary reason as to why I made her.

I've heard the other argument that Granite is just a 'oh ****' power for some and they are fully capable by just using the other armors 95%+ of the time.

I know either way the Fighting PP is important but I'm not convinced on leadership. I'm 49 right now and will be respec'in after 50. I have leadership but don't know if I should keep it (maneuvers, assault and veng is what I have).

This is also the first character I've had in my years of playing that I've actively used TP and have grown quite fond of it.

Also she is only my second tank. My first one I've rarely touched since hitting 50 a year ago (that's a Inv/SS tank)...

So if anyone would like to make a solid suggestion with why I wouldn't want it and just stick with the other armors, I'm willing to listen to advice, and if you feel up to it, posting your build too.

Thanks in advance all.

Well first off any tank can tank any content in game if built right. Second off lot of ppl do not like Granite for the main reason is there attacks and movement is slowed down being in it. But there is ways around that Me personally am out of granite when I move but once I get to the enemy's I go back into granite or I use TP depends on the map. I did a Mo run on my stone tank and I was moving lot slower then the rest of the team when in granite, we had no one on team with SB. Granted I am not a big fan of the stone tank for those reasons but if you want to there is a guide u can look at to help you out if need be. Be advise though some of the information might be pre i19 but it still have some great info if u need it.

Basically the reason running all the other armors isn't as popular is that they're VERY end-heavy. And you still wind up with a tank that's squishier than Granite for everything save Psi.

Your resists running "all but Granite" are about 35-40% S/L and F/C. No energy resists. Granted, with some careful (see "expensive") building you can softcap easily to S/L/E/N and Psi.

But, basically, any energy damage bypassing your defenses will wreck you, and you'll be getting hit regularly by Fire/Cold damage.

Also, I classify "Oh ****!" powers are things that have truly nasty side effects. Like the crash from Invulnerability's Unstoppable.

With Stone, built right, it can be left on forever without running you out of endurance, and makes you, by default the toughest tank in the game. It's down-side? Oh DARN! You're doing less damage and moving slower.

1: You can survive long enough that lowered damage means jack and squat. They're going to die...eventually.
2: This is why the devs invented Teleport (well, maybe not THE reason, but TP is damned useful).

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Just realized that I didn't answer the OP's question!

Take Granite! Even though you CAN build a Stone tank to be pretty sturdy outside of Granite, why wouldn't you take a power that can provide such extreme survivability without the dangerous crash that some T9s have?

Sure, there's a price, which can now be substantially mitigated with IOs. To my mind, the question is whether you want to build toward with the assumption that all or most of your time post-32 will be spent in Granite, or whether you want to keep your options open to using the other armors when the extreme survivability of Granite isn't needed.

Both are completely reasonable choices, so do what suits you best. But in general, I think if you're not planning to take Granite you might as well go for another tanker primary since Granite is what makes SA unique.

Stone Armor is a defense-based set without Granite Armor. Defenses have several weaknesses. First, you can be debuffed. Stone Armor doesn't get much defense debuff resistance outside of Granite Armor. Second, enemies can have to-hit buffs. The only way to counter those is by having more defense than their to-hit, but you would be focusing a lot of your build to cover a scenario that you only encounter in 5% of the game's content. Third, accuracy modifiers are calculated after defense and to-hit. That means there is absolutely nothing you can do about them except expect to be hit more often. Foes ranked higher than minion and foes higher level than you get an accuracy bonus. A +4 boss typically has about 10% chance to hit a soft-capped player.

Defense works, though. I have seen some shield defense users tank Lord Recluse when he is buffed by the towers. It just takes a lot more support to keep a defense-based tank alive than one who has defense and resistance. Consider that defense can lower a mob's to-hit chance from 50% to 5%. Accuracy modifiers are applied after that, so you could be getting hit 5% to 10% of the time from typical enemies. That means you are taking 10% to 20% of the damage you would have taken with zero defense.

Stacking resistance with defense is much more effective. You could be taking 10% of the original damage by only having defense, as mentioned above. With Granite Armor, 90% resistance to all but psionic is definitely possible, so that 10% damage taken turns into 1%. Which do you think will have an easier time staying alive against the toughest content in the game?


I suggest that you make two builds. One can be based on being in Granite Armor all of the time. The other can be for situations where you know you can handle things with just defense, but have Granite Armor as an emergency power. The more you play, the better you will get at predicting when to use Granite Armor.

In my opinion anyone rolling a Stone tanker is doing so in order to have the most durable character in the game; if you're even thinking about skipping Granite armor then you'll be happier with another primary. Without Granite the Stone set really doesn't have anything to recommend itself over other sets. Yes, you can soft cap your defenses, but so can Ice & Shield and they have other benefits without the drawback of Rooted.

Now none of this means you have to be locked into Granite 24/7; there are lots of situations where your out of granite durability is adequate so you don't need the overkill and the penalties of Granite. Still, it's there for when things get tough. On my Stone/Fire tanker I probably spend about 40% of the time tanking in Rock/Rooted/Stone Skin rather than Granite because the incoming damage isn't enough to require Granite. Even so Granite's always available for when I'm running tougher content. Without it I'd much prefer playing an Invuln, Ice, Shield or really any other tanker primary... they're all tougher than a non-Granite stone and don't have the penalties.

So the answer is a definite YES to Granite... either take and slot it or you'll be better off simply rolling a different primary.

My main is a Stone / Fire. I think I have about 3000 hrs on him in 20 months.
OP - mrbothsides, your stated aim is Uber tank anything, 2nd goal Farming.

As I see it there are three houses at Stone Armor Hogwarts.
The 'Only when needed/panic button House' (symbol an up-gunned Crusader Tank towing a heavy Tank).
The Blanaced House (symbol a Panther tank towing a Tiger I).
The Granite all the time House (Symbol a Tiger II but shooting underloaded ammo.)

All the builds have compromises, but being a member of the Granite all the time house I think you can be most efficient focusing on One style only and to be Uber that style has to be Granite all the time.

Your Tiger II can have it's weaknesses fixed while keepeing it's 45+ Defense and 80-90% Resists (my resists will hit 80+ when I finally get a Hami Ribosome). I use the following set-up most of the time, including farming.

Weave and Manuevers - almost avoids having to use defense boosting attack sets, allowing recharge boosters in attacks instead. I run 1 Kinetic Combat for S/L and 1 Eradication for E/NE. Aegis resist sets handle the Fire/Cold.

Alpha +45% Musculature. Almost removes the Granite Damage penalty. Seems like the best, really the only efficient, way to do this.

Run speed boosting set bonuses. ( I found these best: GotA 7.5%, 2 slot Swift, Perf Shifter, Aegis, Regen Tissue, Gaussian's) Anything close to 20mph has seemed fine to me in the course of playing various builds.

Recharge penalty is canceled with set bonuses. (LotG 7.5%, Decimation, Crushing Impact, Positron's Blast, Doctored Wounds, Basilisk's Gaze. Purples if you can afford) I prefer not to use Hasten as when I tried it the crash always seemed to sneak up and bite me (dropped toggles). Many doubtless more skilful players love Hasten on a Stone.

Defense Debuff Resistance - normal max with rooted is only about 60%. Before Destiny this was a problem sometimes. Now I run Ageless Radial Epiphany. This Hard Caps DDR for short periods and permits a constant 85+% with Rooted if needed. It also fills your Blue bar once (no recovery boost) and gives a nifty additional recharge rate boost.

For extreme content (Lord Recluse and Incarnate Trials) I switch out the Alpha for a max Nerve Radial for added Def and a taunt boost.

My final build move on my Stone/Fire is to use only two slots in Rock, Crystal and Minerals. No Brimstone. The slots freed up by this move give you the slots you need to have superior Regeneration. Mine is at 49.5/sec Rooted, 71.4HP/sec when adding Earth's Embrace. Because of the recharge boosts and Ageless, Embrace is almost perma.

Even with just 2 slots the Weave and Manuevers combine to give 38% S/L, 39.9 E/NE, and 46% Psionic out of Granite if necessary.

With this build I carry inspirations but I almost never use them now.

Hope these ideas are of use to you, mrbothsides.

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It's quite simple, being in Granite all of the time is unnecessary. When unnecessary your dps is less than it could be, therefore then your xp/time or TF speed maybe less than it could be. Knowing when to be in and out of Granite is not always obvious. If your concept is granite only and you like to take a lot of pools or certain incarnate abilities to make up the difference then so be it. I tend to like to exemp comfortably on all my Tankers.

Upon reading the responses and thinking about it more.. the slight hopes of farming have gone away.
I just want to be a really strudy tank and have a build that's viable with Granite and outside of Granite without having to spend the funds on 2 separate builds.

I originally had/(have) the leadership PP.. but that's going away now and going to replace Maneuvers, Assault and Veng with Rock Armor, Crystal Armor and Minerals... Should I have Brimstone? Was thinking I'd just pop into Granite for F/C damage protection.

Also.. Hasten? Get rid of? I have a Mac, so I don't use Mids.. I've used sucker punch a bit but really am more of a 'build from recommendations and what I feel works' type.

Also, I was set on Cardiac Alpha... but should I be thinking musculature?
thanks again for all the feedback!!!

My logic has always been go granite as a tank and fiddle fart the other armors as a brute. Build your granite for speed as best as you can and tank. The days of farming with granite died when burn was reborn and the AE welcomed its rebirth.

If I'm on a team and see a Stone tanker with only Granite, I watch them carefully. 5% of the time, it's all good. 95% of the time, they're a waste of space compared to an all-rounder Stone. Especially if you're /Fire - use that damage you've got! Don't waste it in the 99% of situations where you don't even need to glance at Granite.