Electric / Shields Scrapper vs Brute - Some Numbers
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Originally Posted by Super Flu
Base Damage: Havoc Punch 82.6 Scrapper 55.1 Brute Thunder Strike 122.6 Scrapper 81.7 Brute Chain Induction 82.6 Scrapper 55.1 Brute Lightning Rod 200.2 Scrapper 133.5 Brute Shield Charge 113.4 Scrapper 100.1 Brute FireBall 118.9 Scrapper 37.5 Brute |
These look like non-fury Brute numbers, which are largely irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Super Flu
Burst Damage: I'm trying to make this as fair a comparison as possible....close enough I think. So in this instance, the toon, no fury to start, walks into a big group and fires off their powers. Assume that the powers are enhanced to 95 % damage, buildup is used, Against All Odd has 6 foes saturated and in the case of the Brute, Fury is instantly 50% full (+100% damage)...being generous with fury bar for burst damage.
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Fury is easy to keep around 70% for most players.
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Originally Posted by Super Flu
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Originally Posted by Super Flu
Shield Charge
419.58 Scrapper 400.40 Brute (capped) |
I've never seen SC do 400 on my brutes, it caps near 300 (284 IIRC).
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Originally Posted by Super Flu
FireBall
439.93 Scrapper 163.13 Brute |
Are you sure this isnt a mistake from mids? I think mids uses the scrapper crit bonus for epics.
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Thanks for the input. The first set of numbers.....as stated.... is Base damage. Irrelevant for you perhaps but I was putting up the listed base damage as a baseline to compare sets......and base damage means to me unenhanced, non-fury. etc. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
These look like non-fury Brute numbers, which are largely irrelevant. Fury is easy to keep around 70% for most players. I've never seen SC do 400 on my brutes, it caps near 300 (284 IIRC). Are you sure this isnt a mistake from mids? I think mids uses the scrapper crit bonus for epics. |
I didn't realize that a brute can jump in a start at 70% fury.....which is what I was trying to look at....being generous on the fury I thought. Perhaps I should add a third comparison as sustained damage....assuming the brute staying at 70% the whole time. Although in all honesty, the extra 40% to base damage (in your 70% example) for the brute probably wont make too much of a difference...20-32 pts of damage.
I do not play a brute in normal teaming situations...so it 70% fury a good average to use for TFs and teams? When I use mine in AE is seems to get closer to 90% when surrounded but that AE and probably a better example of using the capped damage....which is where I try to keep both brute and scrapper. Anyone else confirm this 70% average?
I dont know about the fireball. It seems off to me...and why I try not to rely on mids for most things....but I did for base damage here.
ok well r u super sure its not at all like that for brutes
I had brutes that did more damage then the scrapper 
here r some awesome combos battle axe/shields , elec/fiery aura , or SS/WP
Just comparing electric / shield between scrapper and brute...b/c that is somewhat how I decided on a scrapper.....and I would have appreciated the numbers....at that time. Thought I'd help others.....plus promote the combo since it IS a blast to play to me. Seriously this toon has revitalized my COH experience.
Yes I do understand some brutes perform nicely and better than scrappers.....have one myself. Although I am also trying to compare apples to apples.....and scrappers cannot use axe or SS, just saying.
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If you mean at the very start of a mission, or TF - then the scrapper has the advantage. But once a brute gets rolling its pretty easy to maintain 70% for most players, and some players can get 75-80, but I think about 70-75 is a better number to go with.|
Originally Posted by Super Flu
I didn't realize that a brute can jump in a start at 70% fury.....which is what I was trying to look at....being generous on the fury I thought.
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There is also the frenzy power which allows a Brute to jump start their fury bar to 100% fury, but it does take 3s to activate.
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Originally Posted by Super Flu
Perhaps I should add a third comparison as sustained damage....assuming the brute staying at 70% the whole time. Although in all honesty, the extra 40% to base damage (in your 70% example) for the brute probably wont make too much of a difference...20-32 pts of damage.
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Originally Posted by Super Flu
I do not play a brute in normal teaming situations...so it 70% fury a good average to use for TFs and teams?
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Good stuff, thx.
Game balance would suggest that, Brutes being tougher than Scrappers, Scrappers should do more damage. Your conclusions seem to be in line with that expectation.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
SS/Fire takes that expectation, beats it up, grabs its lunch money and runs away cackling like a madman.
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Nonsense. An SS/Fire Scrapper would still do more damage. :P
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
SS/Fire takes that expectation, beats it up, grabs its lunch money and runs away cackling like a madman.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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That game balance is completely laughed at when the conversation turns to Scrappers vs. Stalkers - so frankly I don't think it holds any water with Scrappers vs. Brutes until Stalkers get some kind of a real fix.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Game balance would suggest that, Brutes being tougher than Scrappers, Scrappers should do more damage. Your conclusions seem to be in line with that expectation.
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For the most part Brutes and Scrappers are balanced against each other when you discuss DPS vs. Durability - the numbers are usually slight in both directions.
And then you add SD into the mix, and the Scrapper shoots way past the Brute's DPS with the only real advantage on the Brute end being getting more out of OWTS.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
SS/Fire takes that expectation, beats it up, grabs its lunch money and runs away cackling like a madman
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Not every Brute wants to be FA, just like not every Scrapper wants to be SD.
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SD isn't as godlike as you make it out to be, considering its dependency on having multiple targets around for maximum DPS and its powerset limitations. Also, I'm quite confident my SR scrapper could give any FA Brute or SD Scrapper a run for their money once I finish building him.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That game balance is completely laughed at when the conversation turns to Scrappers vs. Stalkers - so frankly I don't think it holds any water with Scrappers vs. Brutes until Stalkers get some kind of a real fix.
For the most part Brutes and Scrappers are balanced against each other when you discuss DPS vs. Durability - the numbers are usually slight in both directions. And then you add SD into the mix, and the Scrapper shoots way past the Brute's DPS with no major compensation on the Brute end outside of getting more out of OWTS. Considering the benefits that SD gives Scrappers - and how comparatively weaker powers like Shield Charge & Lightning Rod work on brutes, not to mention the Stalker being totally outclassed by Scrappers, I think even with 1 secondary giving Brutes an edge things are still pretty even. Not every Brute wants to be FA, just like not every Scrapper wants to be SD. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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And the hit points. And the regen that flows from the hit points.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
And then you add SD into the mix, and the Scrapper shoots way past the Brute's DPS with the only real advantage on the Brute end being getting more out of OWTS.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I didn't say it was godlike.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
SD isn't as godlike as you make it out to be, considering its dependency on having multiple targets around for maximum DPS and its powerset limitations. Also, I'm quite confident my SR scrapper could give any FA Brute or SD Scrapper a run for their money once I finish building him.
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Those multiple targets provide a bonus, its not "dependent" on anything.
And SC still functions very well with just BU.
Your SR scrapper will have a long way to go to put out both the same level of ST DPS and AoE as either an SD or FA build.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
And the hit points. And the regen that flows from the hit points.
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And the regen your talking about is like 3 HPS. (Off the top of my head, haven't checked).
This is a silly thing to argue, you can post "SD Brute or Scrapper" anywhere on this entire forum and you will get a thread that answers with a giant resounding SCRAPPER for a ton of reasons.
Its not even close.
You get the same thing in reverse when you ask about FA.
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Unless you spend time gathering enemies around you, this isn't something you can rely upon. And if you spend time gathering enemies, it's time you could have spent hitting the target.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I didn't say it was godlike.
Those multiple targets provide a bonus, its not "dependent" on anything. And SC still functions very well with just BU. Your SR scrapper will have a long way to go to put out both the same level of ST DPS and AoE as either an SD or FA build. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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In what, killing slower?
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Also, I'm quite confident my SR scrapper could give any FA Brute or SD Scrapper a run for their money once I finish building him.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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There's really no effort in having enemies gather around you when you AoE them to death, since you should be in the middle of them regardless. And for harder targets like AV's, gathering targets for a few seconds is well worth the time, if they're not already in the middle of a group.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Unless you spend time gathering enemies around you, this isn't something you can rely upon. And if you spend time gathering enemies, it's time you could have spent hitting the target.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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You'd be surprised what a top DB attack chain can do with +40% global damage bonuses and Musculature.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
In what, killing slower?
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
There's really no effort in having enemies gather around you when you AoE them to death, since you should be in the middle of them regardless. And for harder targets like AV's, gathering targets for a few seconds is well worth the time, if they're not already in the middle of a group.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
You'd be surprised what a top DB attack chain can do with +40% global damage bonuses and Musculature.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Rarely is it just a few seconds. And if you're in a team your AAO fodder will likely fall pretty fast.
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And then, it can have AAO on top of that.
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You have a tougher time reaching defense and recharge goals, meaning less slots to spend on damage. The important thing is the primary, though.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Aside from the primary, you have not listed anything that SD couldn't also do (musculature, set bonuses).
And then, it can have AAO on top of that. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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I agree about reaching defense and recharge goals vs. SR, that's a given.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
You have a tougher time reaching defense and recharge goals, meaning less slots to spend on damage. The important thing is the primary, though.
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If you are locked into a single primary though, that isn't exactly the same as the kind of across the board boost that AAO gives to a variety of primaries.
SD will have less slots to spend on +damage, but many of the sets that it will be utilizing for defense purposes have +damage to begin with: P'shifter, Makos, ToD & Oblit for example and it also gets the upfront bonus from AAO, so it shouldn't need a full +40% to reach equivalency if the primary is the same.
Its already been stated that the numbers were originally off, but anyone who knows their stuff will tell you that both electrical melee and shield defense benefit scrappers more when it comes to damage. I don't exactly see the why you went through the trouble of testing this when everyone outside of your one friend would have predicted that the scrapper version of the combo would outdo the brute version by a good bit. With that said- cheers! to the scientific process and the pursuit of knowledge and in game testing. I am sure you had fun frying some mobs while conducting your test.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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I fixed the fireball numbers....so the only numbers that are in question are the shield charge for brutes (still dont know if my numbers are even wrong) and then the 50% vs 75% fury which doesn't make much of a difference in the results or point I was trying to make.|
Originally Posted by magikwand
Its already been stated that the numbers were originally off, but anyone who knows their stuff will tell you that both electrical melee and shield defense benefit scrappers more when it comes to damage. I don't exactly see the why you went through the trouble of testing this when everyone outside of your one friend would have predicted that the scrapper version of the combo would outdo the brute version by a good bit. With that said- cheers! to the scientific process and the pursuit of knowledge and in game testing. I am sure you had fun frying some mobs while conducting your test.
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The reason I went through the "trouble" was because I really didn't know to what degree we were talking and I like to see the numbers. I cant be the only one. Anybody can say one's better than the next......but let's see the meat of it.
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Dual Blades is a top scrapper ST DPS performer, the best out of all the primaries with the exception of fully saturated DM. Not having access to it is a disadvantage and it doesn't matter how you paint it.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I agree about reaching defense and recharge goals vs. SR, that's a given.
If you are locked into a single primary though, that isn't exactly the same as the kind of across the board boost that AAO gives to a variety of primaries. |
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| SD will have less slots to spend on +damage, but many of the sets that it will be utilizing for defense purposes have +damage to begin with: P'shifter, Makos, ToD & Oblit for example and it also gets the upfront bonus from AAO, so it shouldn't need a full +40% to reach equivalency if the primary is the same. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
When looking for information on whether to make an electric/shield scrapper or brute, most of what I read said definitely scrapper due to higher base damage....particularly with Lightning Rod and Shield Charge since they are capped for both at 400 %. I made the scrapper and totally dig him for everything. Teaming, TFs, Farming...it's all so much fun.
Recently someone said to me that ELE/SD brutes "destroy" scrappers and that both his friend and mids says so. It got me looking into it again b/c I knew it wasn't right.
In the process....I crunched some numbers and then realized that when I was deciding...I never did see a numerical comparison across the board.
Here goes...hope this helps those trying to decide. I didn't use all of the electric powers AND am using a direct Fire Mastery to Fire Mastery comparison for APP.
Base Damage:
Havoc Punch
82.6 Scrapper
55.1 Brute
Thunder Strike
122.6 Scrapper
81.7 Brute
Chain Induction
82.6 Scrapper
55.1 Brute
Lightning Rod
200.2 Scrapper
133.5 Brute
Shield Charge
113.4 Scrapper
100.1 Brute
FireBall
68.52 Scrapper
37.5 Brute
Burst Damage: I'm trying to make this as fair a comparison as possible....close enough I think. So in this instance, the toon, no fury to start, walks into a big group and fires off their powers. Assume that the powers are enhanced to 95 % damage, buildup is used, Against All Odd has 6 foes saturated and in the case of the Brute, Fury is instantly 50% full (+100% damage)...being generous with fury bar for burst damage.
Havoc Punch
305.62 Scrapper
239.69 Brute
Thunder Strike
453.62 Scrapper
355.40 Brute
Chain Induction
305.62 Scrapper
239.69 Brute
Lightning Rod
740.74 Scrapper
534.00 Brute (capped)
Shield Charge
419.58 Scrapper
400.40 Brute (capped)
FireBall
253.52 Scrapper
163.13 Brute
Differences:
Havoc Punch: 65.94 higher for scrapper
Thunder Strike: 98.23 higher for scrapper
Chain Induction: 65.94 higher for scrapper
Lightning Rod: 206.74 higher for scrapper
Shield Charge: 19.58 higher for scrapper
FireBall: 90.40 higher for scrapper
As you can see, it's a pretty big difference for burst damage...and that's giving 1/2 a fury bar to start.....and only 6 foes saturating AAO. Why the scraper is so much fun on TFs and teaming........walks into a group and goes to town. Now assume that you fire off buildup and hit your big three powers (LR, SC, and Fireball), the scrapper will produce over 300 more damage than the brute....and that does not include the possibility of critical hits in fireball.
Capped Damage: Now you would think that capped damage would favor the brute and extended fighting. Usually to get to capped damage, the brute would have some serious fury built up, perhaps some outside buffs. The Damage Cap is 500% for scrappers and 775% for Brutes and those are inclusive of enhancements, base damage, buffs. So in reality, assuming 95% damage enhanced and 100% for base damage, the scrapper only needs 305% more to cap damage and the brute only needs 580%. BUT.....Lightning Rod and Shield Charge are "Psuedo Pets" and have their own Damage Cap of 400%. Subtract 195% (base & enhancements) from that and you can only buff those powers and additional 205% for BOTH the scrapper and brute. AND you'll notice from the numbers above that both LR and SC on the brute are already capped...and those are the big hitters in the build.
Havoc Punch
413.00 Scrapper
427.03 Brute
Thunder Strike
613.00 Scrapper
633.18 Brute
Chain Induction
413.00 Scrapper
427.03 Brute
Lightning Rod
800.80 Scrapper
534.00 Brute
Shield Charge
453.60 Scrapper
400.40 Brute
FireBall
342.6 Scrapper
290.63 Brute
Differences:
Havoc Punch: 14.03 higher for brute
Thunder Strike: 20.18 higher for brute
Chain Induction: 14.03 higher for brute
Lightning Rod: 266.80 higher for scrapper
Shield Charge: 53.20 higher for scrapper
FireBall: 51.98 higher for scrapper
Again as you can see....at capped damage the Brute slightly out-damages the scrapper in three out of the six powers compared. The scrapper still out-damages the brute with the three big hitters by a significant amount. Now if you factor in the possibility of critical hits for Havoc Punch, Thunder Strike, Chain Induction and Fireball, the scrapper looks even better.
The scrapper has a lower damage cap percentage to hit AND has better damage buffing powers in buildup is 100% vs brute 80% plus AAO is 12.5% per foe while brutes is 10% per foe. So its easier to get to the cap without outside buffing AND their powers hit harder in both burst and capped damage.
Maybe many of you knew this already but in my opinion, the electric/shield scrapper is hands down the winner in damage. This comparison is for damage only.....if the higher resistance cap and hit points is important to you...you may come up with a different choice.