A way to make Ouroboros rogue/vigilante-friendly?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-06-08 14:58 in Suggestions and Ideas
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It's a good idea I'll sign it.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
Rogues and Vigilantes can use Pocket D to cross over, but the number of zones available are limited (especially for going to a hero zone).
For Ouroboros, if the portal itself can't easily filter hero/vigilante/rogue/villain, then what about having a "Red Crystal" and a "Blue Crystal" - for example, villains can only use the red one, and the blue one tells them they're being prevented from using it. Rogues and vigilantes get the same warning they get when using the doors in Pocket D, that they're about to enter a particular alignment's territory. Worst-case scenario (like, "it only works in Pocket D because there's an intra-zone transition first") then I think doors could be added to the sides of the Ouroboros structure, leading to small interiors with their respective crystal. Good idea if it would work, or too much of a hack? |
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Apparently not anywhere close to enough of a hack.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
Good idea if it would work, or too much of a hack?
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From developer comments:
- The Ouroborus zones are not co-op and can't be co-op without developer/gm cheats or a complete remake. This will not be happening soon, if at all.
- The contact system has certain assumptions built in for alignment.
- The mission system has certain assumptions built in for alignment.
- The flashback system has certain assumptions built in for access.
Putting red/blue crystals in Pocket D wouldn't work for rogues trying to do blueside missions or the reverse until the contact, mission, and flashback system are fixed.
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If they (The Ouros) are to remain alignment locked, then perhaps they (The Ouro missions) should equal tips with alignment merits for the completion of an arc! 
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The crystals aren't for flashback missions, they'd be zone lists. Aesthetically, since there are multiple crystals in the Ouro zone(s) already, they wouldn't look weird (except for the color). I suppose I should have been clearer, this is just about being able to get around. (For example, a rogue on an older hero TF where suddenly all the heroes are going Ouro to the next zone - the rogue can't do that because they have the villain Ouro!)|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Putting red/blue crystals in Pocket D wouldn't work for rogues trying to do blueside missions or the reverse until the contact, mission, and flashback system are fixed.
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If it can be done without carving out new rooms, then the red crystal could be by Mender Tesseract in the hero Ouroboros. Added to her dialog is something like the submariner that allows vigilantes to use the crystal to access the Rogue Isles zone list. The blue crystal is in the villain Ouroboros by Twilight's Son, for rogues to access the Paragon City zone list. That's as long as zone lists are locked if their door is locked, though.
would be a wonderful thing if this was some way fixed.... or has an agreeable work around
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And I just found out that's the way the RWZ works! As a rogue I can use the portal to Paragon City, which warns me that I'll be entering the city of heroes before giving me the zone list. So dropping some crystals near Tesseract/Twilight's Son that do the same thing seems easy enough as long as the tech for those doors isn't magically limited to co-op zones; wouldn't even need to talk to them like with the submariner, I think. (Unless that's the work-around for alignment-locked doors in non-co-op zones?)|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
That's as long as zone lists are locked if their door is locked, though.
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On that note, even if it's just got three zones, I am so happy that I realized I could get to Atlas and Peregrine through the RWZ. :'-)
Not as versatile as Ouroboros would be, but better than nothing.
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And don't forget Founders Falls, where the Vanguard base is right next to the train station. It's a very handy shortcut.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
On that note, even if it's just got three zones, I am so happy that I realized I could get to Atlas and Peregrine through the RWZ.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
On that note, even if it's just got three zones, I am so happy that I realized I could get to Atlas and Peregrine through the RWZ. :'-)
Not as versatile as Ouroboros would be, but better than nothing. |
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
And don't forget Founders Falls, where the Vanguard base is right next to the train station. It's a very handy shortcut.
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While I understand your reasons, this is one case where we've been told that the zones can't act that way. I'm not speculating on the difficulty. Is it possible to do? Probably. Is it likely to happen? Probably not.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
The crystals aren't for flashback missions, they'd be zone lists. Aesthetically, since there are multiple crystals in the Ouro zone(s) already, they wouldn't look weird (except for the color). I suppose I should have been clearer, this is just about being able to get around. (For example, a rogue on an older hero TF where suddenly all the heroes are going Ouro to the next zone - the rogue can't do that because they have the villain Ouro!)
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
If it can be done without carving out new rooms, then the red crystal could be by Mender Tesseract in the hero Ouroboros. Added to her dialog is something like the submariner that allows vigilantes to use the crystal to access the Rogue Isles zone list. The blue crystal is in the villain Ouroboros by Twilight's Son, for rogues to access the Paragon City zone list. That's as long as zone lists are locked if their door is locked, though.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
And I just found out that's the way the RWZ works! As a rogue I can use the portal to Paragon City, which warns me that I'll be entering the city of heroes before giving me the zone list. So dropping some crystals near Tesseract/Twilight's Son that do the same thing seems easy enough as long as the tech for those doors isn't magically limited to co-op zones; wouldn't even need to talk to them like with the submariner, I think. (Unless that's the work-around for alignment-locked doors in non-co-op zones?)
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The OP doesn't want the ZONE to work that way. The OP wants AN EXIT to work that way. Like the exit doors in RWZ: Rogues and Vigilantes can use the Paragon OR Rogue Isles exit portals, Heroes can only use the Paragon portal, and Villains can only use the Rogue Isles portal.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
While I understand your reasons, this is one case where we've been told that the zones can't act that way. I'm not speculating on the difficulty. Is it possible to do? Probably. Is it likely to happen? Probably not.
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If it really REQUIRES a zone to be flagged cooperative for doors to work that way, all they'd have to do is flip the "Villain City Zone"/"Hero City Zone" to "Cooperative Zone" flag (standard code rant). Heroes can't access the Villain Ouro, and vice-versa, so it doesn't make much difference what they're flagged.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Although there's still the submariner in the hero/villain non-co-op zones, capable of opening alignment-locked doors for characters of the appropriate alignments. (NPCs seem to be the most power system in the engine!)
It might be less stream-lined, but dialog to choose your destination within Tesseract/Twilight's Son's conversation (to key the portal to your destination) might work around the apparent (and bizarre) limitation of being unable to call up an alignment-locked zone list from an alignment-locked zone. (Summary: instead of clicking the crystal and getting the zone list, you talk to Tesseract - like you would the submariner, but with the additional step of choosing the zone from among their dialog options. This, like the submariner, enables the "door" [appearance: crystal] so that you can go to the chosen zone.)
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No, it does not, because alignment locks and co-op zones are completely unrelated.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
As you've discovered, only the co-op zones (Pocket D, Midnighter Club, RWZ) can do this. As for doing the "same thing seems easy enough", all I have to say is that the standard code rant applies.
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Go get on a rogue and click the door to Fort Trident, then run over and try the elevator to Recluse's Victory. Each time, you get the same message you get if you click the Hero exits in Pocket D and RWZ as a villain. Both doors are in Atlas Park. Plus, the RV elevator leads to a room within the same zone, not another zone entirely.
Now jump on a viggie and try getting into the Crucible. Oh, what's this? Another alignment lock! In Cap Au Diable!
Conclusion: Alignment locks are coded into doors, not zones. Therefore, any entrance to any location anywhere in CoH can be alignment locked.
Back to topic, everything the devs need to do to pull this off is already in the game, fully coded and working. All they really need to do is copy each Ouro's exit portal into the other zone and apply the appropriate alignment lock.
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Yes, I got that. What I'm discounting is that it would be either a simple or quick fix. Additionally, I don't see the need for yet more short cuts to be made as they are not needed.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
The OP doesn't want the ZONE to work that way. The OP wants AN EXIT to work that way. Like the exit doors in RWZ: Rogues and Vigilantes can use the Paragon OR Rogue Isles exit portals, Heroes can only use the Paragon portal, and Villains can only use the Rogue Isles portal.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
Although there's still the submariner in the hero/villain non-co-op zones, capable of opening alignment-locked doors for characters of the appropriate alignments. (NPCs seem to be the most power system in the engine!)
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| So, you want to jump over to the other side? You think you're up for it? You should know a couple things before you head over, namely you're going to abandon any mission or task you're currently working on. Also, when you get over to the other side, you're not going to get any new missions from anyone over there. You'll be able to team up with other players and run their missions, and you still collect any tips as you fight guys on the street. But, you're going to have to become a hero or villain fully to have people truly trust you. |
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
Summary: instead of clicking the crystal and getting the zone list, you talk to Tesseract - like you would the submariner, but with the additional step of choosing the zone from among their dialog options. This, like the submariner, enables the "door" [appearance: crystal] so that you can go to the chosen zone.
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Originally Posted by JAG-01
Conclusion: Alignment locks are coded into doors, not zones. Therefore, any entrance to any location anywhere in CoH can be alignment locked.
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Originally Posted by JAG-01
Back to topic, everything the devs need to do to pull this off is already in the game, fully coded and working. All they really need to do is copy each Ouro's exit portal into the other zone and apply the appropriate alignment lock.
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Since I rarely use hero Ouro I decided to check the actual connections. That's a disappointing list of zones. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Additionally, I don't see the need for yet more short cuts to be made as they are not needed.
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So sharing Ouro (exit zone) access would be pointless, yes. More ways to get around Paragon, though, are needed. Maybe it's just that the Rogue Isles are so much easier to navigate by comparison, but Paragon feels like it involves needlessly long trips for everything. I heard that there will be some area revamps in Issue 21, so maybe the really big zones will have more transit stops put in. Areas like Steel Canyon could even use a Central stop.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I see that you are continuing to assume visible interaction is controlling a mechanic.
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Oh well.
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I think you have not read everything that's been posted. I mentioned the elevator to RV leading to a section in the same zone, I never said Fort Trident wasn't part of Atlas Park's map (because I haven't verified this information in game yet), and I never said the OP was asking for a literal doorway of any kind.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I think you have not read about the standard code rant. I'm sure that it is far more complex than you or the original poster seem to think it is.
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I also think you should refrain from attempting to "mind read" people on the internet. You don't know who I am, how I think, what I know, or what I've read. And frankly, that's none of your business.
I'm sure he's not trying to be abrasive. Sometimes straight-talking comes off harsher online when there aren't any verbal clues as to attitude. I don't think he knows everything, but he's pretty knowledgeable! (Except, apparently, how bothersome it is for rogues to get around Paragon 
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Anyways, even if any of my workarounds were workable, the four zones the hero Ouroboros connect to aren't worth the time. The only one not available to the RWZ or Pocket D is Independence Port. I had thought it was more versatile than that when I first made my suggestion. The actually useful thing to do is much harder - zone revamps. But that's already on the Issue 21 plate. We probably can't influence it that much at this point, but there's at least hope that more train stops will be (or at this stage for the devs, were) added to the big/long zones.
(I suppose one could also ask for the workaround plus a bigger list of hero zone connections, but I'm sure there'd have to be a discussion about how many and which zones, which just makes it more of a hassle.)
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Yeah, I wasn't trying to be defensive or anything. I'm sure he does know a lot. But he seems to miss a lot, too. And a few of his misses hit some nerves. I dun liek 2 raeg. Srsly.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
I'm sure he's not trying to be abrasive. Sometimes straight-talking comes off harsher online when there aren't any verbal clues as to attitude. I don't think he knows everything, but he's pretty knowledgeable! (Except, apparently, how bothersome it is for rogues to get around Paragon
) |
Back on topic, though, I was recently playing a rogue Brute on a team of mostly bluesiders running the Mender Ramiel arc. At one of the missions where you had to leave Ouro, all the blue teammates disappeared at once; they'd all used their SG Base teleporters to get to the mission, which I don't have yet. I didn't have any other teleporters of my own, either (it was only after that that I bought the packs with the Mission and Pocket D teleporters). First thing that popped into Team chat was along the lines of "Aw, crap. Wait up, guys, I'm gotta hafta take the scenic route..."
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Yes, and people for the last 6 years have been saying that it is MUCH easier to get around the Rogue Isles than it is getting around Paragon City.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
Since I rarely use hero Ouro I decided to check the actual connections. That's a disappointing list of zones.
So sharing Ouro (exit zone) access would be pointless, yes. More ways to get around Paragon, though, are needed. Maybe it's just that the Rogue Isles are so much easier to navigate by comparison, but Paragon feels like it involves needlessly long trips for everything. I heard that there will be some area revamps in Issue 21, so maybe the really big zones will have more transit stops put in. Areas like Steel Canyon could even use a Central stop. |
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Originally Posted by JAG-01
I think you have not read everything that's been posted. I mentioned the elevator to RV leading to a section in the same zone, I never said Fort Trident wasn't part of Atlas Park's map (because I haven't verified this information in game yet), and I never said the OP was asking for a literal doorway of any kind.
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Black Scorpion and Second Measure during a recent ustream chat (At around time index 1:29:30.) said that in order to have a co-op Ouroborus they would have to re-write the zone, the contact system, and the mission system.
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Originally Posted by JAG-01
I also think you should refrain from attempting to "mind read" people on the internet. You don't know who I am, how I think, what I know, or what I've read. And frankly, that's none of your business.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
I'm sure he's not trying to be abrasive. Sometimes straight-talking comes off harsher online when there aren't any verbal clues as to attitude. I don't think he knows everything, but he's pretty knowledgeable! (Except, apparently, how bothersome it is for rogues to get around Paragon
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As to the rogue transportation issue, I'm familiar with it. I started this game during Issue 3. There weren't any teleporters, bases, and the PTA was divided into the yellow and green lines. Pocket D didn't exist in its current form. It was the Paragon Dance Party (not the first version, but a later version). It had an entrance by the Steel Canyon ICON, half way along the east side of Terra Volta in IP, and Talos by the natural store. Founders' Falls and south Skyway didn't have Green Line access. I'm not guessing how bad it was to get around in Paragon City, I KNOW how bad it was. Even with the "scenic route" that rogues have to take, it is a lot easier than it used to be. And the game still has a lot of shortcuts even for rogues to use.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
The actuallyuseful thing to do is much harder - zone revamps. But that's already on the Issue 21 plate. We probably can't influence it that much at this point, but there's at least hope that more train stops will be (or at this stage for the devs, were) added to the big/long zones.
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Originally Posted by JAG-01
Back on topic, though, I was recently playing a rogue Brute on a team of mostly bluesiders running the Mender Ramiel arc.
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Originally Posted by JAG-01
At one of the missions where you had to leave Ouro, all the blue teammates disappeared at once; they'd all used their SG Base teleporters to get to the mission, which I don't have yet. I didn't have any other teleporters of my own, either (it was only after that that I bought the packs with the Mission and Pocket D teleporters). First thing that popped into Team chat was along the lines of "Aw, crap. Wait up, guys, I'm gotta hafta take the scenic route..."
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From the May producer's letter: "One of the most common questions we are asked as developers here at Paragon Studios is what existing content we are going to update in the future. ... Last month I let you know that the next issue features a new zone, and Im very excited about how it is coming together. We are also going to be making improvements to our early gameplay experience, starting with updates to some of the lower level zones. I wanted to share the specifics, however Black Pebble threatened my life if I divulged the details."|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Can you please direct me to anywhere where the developers promised to re-vamp zones other than say they would "like to" revamp zones? My understanding of everything I've read is that they'd like to revisit zones, but doing so takes a long time and is a low priority.
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Whether that's carving out new train stations, or just moving contacts/mission doors closer together (and closer to stores/zone connections/etc.) or what, he hasn't said yet. He did mention the Faultline revamp in his post. I would have stuck it in the quote, but highlighting something from the middle might disingenuously highlight it. I'd like to hope it was mentioned because it was at least a little relevant, though.
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I don't see the OP asking for a co-op Ouro. I don't think I've seen it at all from anyone except YOU.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
He was asking for a zone connection. It doesn't matter if that connection is a door, a car, an NPC, or even a giant octopus. To put it another way, it is the equivalent to a hyperlink on the Internet. It can, and often does, look like something other than a phrase or simple button. A hero/vigilante can't enter the villain version of Ouroborus or a villain base, and a villain/rogue can't enter the hero version of Ouroborus or a hero base. That has been a limitation ever since Issue 18 has been in closed beta, to my knowledge.
Black Scorpion and Second Measure during a recent ustream chat (At around time index 1:29:30.) said that in order to have a co-op Ouroborus they would have to re-write the zone, the contact system, and the mission system. |
1) The OP wants the ability for a Rogue to use Ouro (they get the Villain copy) to go to Paragon City, by a crystal with the Hero copy's zone list, possibly locked behind a door in the Ouro citadel that only Rogues can get through.
2) The OP wants the ability for a Vigilante to use Ouro (they get the Hero copy) to go to the Rogue Isles, by a crystal with the Villain copy's zone list, possibly locked behind a door in the Ouro citadel that only Vigilantes can get through.
Neither of these things requires changing the zone into a cooperative zone. Both of these things require minimally changing the zone. Either by A) adding a door to each that uses the same flagging technology as the door to Recluse's Victory in Atlas Park that denies Rogues/Vigilantes access, which instead allows Rogues/Vigilantes (or more likely: denies Heroes/Villains) access to a small room that contains a sekrit crystal; or B) just adding a second crystal that somehow utilizes flagging technology so that only Rogues/Vigilantes can use it.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Thanks, I glossed over that. |
Originally Posted by ScottyB
From the May producer's letter
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I don't see the OP asking for a co-op Ouro. I don't think I've seen it at all from anyone except YOU.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
1) The OP wants the ability for a Rogue to use Ouro (they get the Villain copy) to go to Paragon City, by a crystal with the Hero copy's zone list, possibly locked behind a door in the Ouro citadel that only Rogues can get through.
2) The OP wants the ability for a Vigilante to use Ouro (they get the Hero copy) to go to the Rogue Isles, by a crystal with the Villain copy's zone list, possibly locked behind a door in the Ouro citadel that only Vigilantes can get through. |
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That's what I meant, which I thought was made clear by "hero Ouro gets a 'door' to villain zones and villain Ouro gets a 'door' to hero zones".|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
If this is what he meant, then yeah it wouldn't be a major undertaking.
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However, the paltry list of hero zones connected to Ouroboros isn't worth much attention, even if it's easy (or easier than real co-op), so the OP no longer wants this unless a bored dev can do it in 10 minutes.
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I just re-read every one of your posts in this thread, I did NOT get that from any of your posts. I also didn't see anything close to the highlighted portion.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
That's what I meant, which I thought was made clear by "hero Ouro gets a 'door' to villain zones and villain Ouro gets a 'door' to hero zones".
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I just re-read every one of your posts in this thread, I did NOT get that from any of your posts. I also didn't see anything close to the highlighted portion.
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
The crystals aren't for flashback missions, they'd be zone lists. Aesthetically, since there are multiple crystals in the Ouro zone(s) already, they wouldn't look weird (except for the color). I suppose I should have been clearer, this is just about being able to get around.
[...] If it can be done without carving out new rooms, then the red crystal could be by Mender Tesseract in the hero Ouroboros. Added to her dialog is something like the submariner that allows vigilantes to use the crystal to access the Rogue Isles zone list. The blue crystal is in the villain Ouroboros by Twilight's Son, for rogues to access the Paragon City zone list. That's as long as zone lists are locked if their door is locked, though. |
I am incredibly amused by the continued activity in this thread despite my surrender/loss of interest. XD
Rogues and Vigilantes can use Pocket D to cross over, but the number of zones available are limited (especially for going to a hero zone).
For Ouroboros, if the portal itself can't easily filter hero/vigilante/rogue/villain, then what about having a "Red Crystal" and a "Blue Crystal" - for example, villains can only use the red one, and the blue one tells them they're being prevented from using it. Rogues and vigilantes get the same warning they get when using the doors in Pocket D, that they're about to enter a particular alignment's territory.
Worst-case scenario (like, "it only works in Pocket D because there's an intra-zone transition first") then I think doors could be added to the sides of the Ouroboros structure, leading to small interiors with their respective crystal. (Although, the Midnighter Club doesn't seem to have that problem. The problem might be that the "lock" only prevents "door" openings, and not menus/zone lists... which would probably still be solved by putting a door between the player and the crystal.)
Good idea if it would work, or too much of a hack?