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I believe it was removed from Brutes and Tanks version but not Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Black_Assassin
Hi guys, was just soloing to 50 today and got annoyed at burn making mobs run away :@
I thought they changed it so burn didn't have the fear factor attached any more? Or is it because I don't have a taunt aura, I'm not sure :S Anyone know the answer? |
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
This is why I stopped playing my /fire scrapper at 30. While burn no longer has an afraid effect, it is still a damage patch and so mobs will run out without a taunt of some sort. Before, even with taunt, the afraid would override the taunt. Now a taunt is enough, but when /fire was ported over to scrapped, they removed the taunt from BA. So I, personally, have decided to not bother with /fire on scrappers, the scatter is just too annoying.
It is front loaded for damage now from what I can understand most of the damage coming from the initial cast. I know a lot of people have this problem with the runners on spines fire but I notice if I build-burn or fiery embrace-burn most would be runners melt and the bosses get flipped with energy torrent and then perforated with throw spines, so I know it is a big problem but I don't seem to be suffering from it as much as most because of my power picks energy torrent - throw spines ftw!!!
I've been running around on my spines fire level 50 for a few weeks. It's the best farm toon power sets I've seen for a long time. I went spines/fire/dark for some immobilize to keep mobs in place, and I haven't had any problems with runners.
I thought it was the DoT from spines making the enemies flee.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
I believe it was removed from Brutes and Tanks version but not Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I thought it was the DoT from spines making the enemies flee.
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Edit: Also, don't forget about the morale coding that makes them flee when their allies are defeated. Nobody has really posted solid information on the mechanics of it, but it is one possible cause of fleeing enemies on a Scrapper without a taunt aura.
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This came up in another thread here this week. |
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Neither of these are correct. Mob AI is designed to run out of patch or rain powers, unless taunted. It isn't exactly a fear effect, but they behave as if they were feared. When the change happened, I noticed a considerable delay in how long it took for the critters to leave the Burn patch on my Spines/Fire.
Edit: Also, don't forget about the morale coding that makes them flee when their allies are defeated. Nobody has really posted solid information on the mechanics of it, but it is one possible cause of fleeing enemies on a Scrapper without a taunt aura. |
I'd be really curious to see an arcana-like study on mob fleeing mechanics. I don't know enough about thsee mechanics to make as informed a decision as I'd like when looking at potential build choices. I just know DoTs and damage auras tend to make it worse... and it gets much worse at high levels.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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The difference between the Scrapper and Brute versions makes me think the Scrapper version still has the Afraid in there somewhere. Enemies act exactly as they used to with my Fire/Stone Tank and Stone/Fire brute, running out as soon as it's dropped (with the Tank and Brute they run out, back in again, back out...)|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Neither of these are correct. Mob AI is designed to run out of patch or rain powers, unless taunted. It isn't exactly a fear effect, but they behave as if they were feared. When the change happened, I noticed a considerable delay in how long it took for the critters to leave the Burn patch on my Spines/Fire.
Edit: Also, don't forget about the morale coding that makes them flee when their allies are defeated. Nobody has really posted solid information on the mechanics of it, but it is one possible cause of fleeing enemies on a Scrapper without a taunt aura. |
On a brute now they happily stand there and die, on a scrapper its "Head for the hills" straight away.
If it was more sporadic I'd be inclined to believe it was morale breaking (especially if there was any hint of the same on the Brute version), but its so immediate and absolute it really looks like an Afraid mechanism to me
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I had heard once that things with slows tend to trigger the flight response, so I attributed at least some of it to that. Which could have been just plain wrong anyway.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I thought it was the DoT from spines making the enemies flee.
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Well it's not that as my Broadsword/Fire doesn't have any slows, or a damage aura other than Blazing Aura.|
Originally Posted by MayorOfAngrytown
I had heard once that things with slows tend to trigger the flight response, so I attributed at least some of it to that. Which could have been just plain wrong anyway.
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It really, really looks like the Afraid or Avoid component is still in the scrapper version of Burn to me.
Given how long the devs took to even realise how out of whack Shield Charge was I'm not surprised it's gone unacknowledged if that is the case.
I've noticed ALOT more fleeing with my FM/SD alt I'm leveling up than with my DM/SD, just as a point of info.
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
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Afraid makes mobs RUN. They don't just leave the area of effect, they head for the hills and keep going. This effect can only be overridden by an Immobilize or Hold (and reduced by Fear and Slow effects), and has been removed from all versions of Burn.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
It really, really looks like the Afraid or Avoid component is still in the scrapper version of Burn to me.
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Avoid makes mobs get out of whatever's damaging or debuffing them, then allows them to act normally once they leave the area. It exists in all damage and/or debuff patches and rains, including ALL versions of Burn. It can be overridden by all the same methods as Afraid, and taunt as well. Scrappers and Blasters don't have taunt in their damage auras, so enemies dart in and out of the patch. Blasters see this less than Scrappers since Hot Feet has a slow in it.
So yes, Scrappers will see less damage from Burn, since enemies will run in and out of it. But the reduction isn't that much, because Burn does most of its damage up front - the DoT is pretty minor.
@Roderick
Does all fire DoT cause the avoid effect? I ask because it certainly seems that since my claws/sr scrapper slotted up the reactive incarnate T4, enemies have been spending a lot more time running from me.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Claw/sr on a scrap has no taunt aura.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Does all fire DoT cause the avoid effect? I ask because it certainly seems that since my claws/sr scrapper slotted up the reactive incarnate T4, enemies have been spending a lot more time running from me.
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Elec armor on a scrap has no taunt aura.
Play moar broots.
To be blunt, brutes are better. Equivalent damage, much better survivability.Of course, scrappers got STYLE.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Afraid makes mobs RUN. They don't just leave the area of effect, they head for the hills and keep going. This effect can only be overridden by an Immobilize or Hold (and reduced by Fear and Slow effects), and has been removed from all versions of Burn.
Avoid makes mobs get out of whatever's damaging or debuffing them, then allows them to act normally once they leave the area. It exists in all damage and/or debuff patches and rains, including ALL versions of Burn. It can be overridden by all the same methods as Afraid, and taunt as well. Scrappers and Blasters don't have taunt in their damage auras, so enemies dart in and out of the patch. Blasters see this less than Scrappers since Hot Feet has a slow in it. So yes, Scrappers will see less damage from Burn, since enemies will run in and out of it. But the reduction isn't that much, because Burn does most of its damage up front - the DoT is pretty minor. |
The chasing after the buggers to finish them off is the issue.
If you have a look at City of Data you'll see Burn used Afraid for it's effect, as does Caltrops, Rains use Avoid.
The "Afraid" effect was supposed to have been stripped out of Burn across the board, but from what I've experienced from comparing Brute and Scrapper versions the Scrapper version still has it.
For a Brute things will stand in the fire quite happily (at least they did 2 weeks ago when I revisited my old EU account and took my Stone/Fire out for a run), for my BS/Fire scrapper they immediately turn and run.
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If I could bribe the devs into giving my main an AT respec allowing me to keep all my badges, accolades, etc... he'd be a brute.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Claw/sr on a scrap has no taunt aura.
Elec armor on a scrap has no taunt aura. Play moar broots. To be blunt, brutes are better. Equivalent damage, much better survivability.Of course, scrappers got STYLE. |
Better damage, higher HP and a taunt aura? Yes please.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Just patches - Burn, Rain of Fire, Tar Patch, Ice Slick - just about anything like that.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Does all fire DoT cause the avoid effect? I ask because it certainly seems that since my claws/sr scrapper slotted up the reactive incarnate T4, enemies have been spending a lot more time running from me.
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According to Castle, one of the factors in Morale breaking is debuff - and all versions of Reactive have at least some chance for -res, right? I suspect that's where you're seeing the morale debuffs from.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
If you have a look at City of Data you'll see Burn used Afraid for it's effect, as does Caltrops, Rains use Avoid.
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Issue 18 was released on 2010/08/16, and that's when the Burn change was made.
With regards to anything changed in Issue 18 or later, City of Data is wrong.
@Roderick
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You mean style, as in playstyle. Which is the biggest reason I pick Scrapper over Brute. |
Originally Posted by mauk2
Of course, scrappers got STYLE.
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Hence the use of my word "used". IE past tense, before Burn was changed (which is kinda my point).|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Just patches - Burn, Rain of Fire, Tar Patch, Ice Slick - just about anything like that.
According to Castle, one of the factors in Morale breaking is debuff - and all versions of Reactive have at least some chance for -res, right? I suspect that's where you're seeing the morale debuffs from. City of Data is current to Build 1800.201003300904.10T4r - Note the date in there: 2010/03/30. Issue 18 was released on 2010/08/16, and that's when the Burn change was made. With regards to anything changed in Issue 18 or later, City of Data is wrong. |
As I've already said I strongly suspect the Scrapper version still has that Afraid in it's version for some reason, scatter-wise it's still working exactly as Burn used to work in my old i5 Tank and pre-change Brute (without the Taunt to force them to "change their minds" a few seconds later).
I'm used to the concept of morale breaks and things legging it but it seems to be more than that with the scrapper version.
Could the scrapper version be still dropping the old pseudopet (it'd be doing more damage than it's supposed to if it is).
Edit : Taunt always seems to override morale breaks, on my Brute if I smack something which is trying to run away it generally stops, so it could very well be working as intended, that Burn almost always makes morale fail but for Brutes & Tanks the fact you've got everything around you taunted via the aura means they automatically pass the morale break caused by Burn and don't budge but on Scrappers they'll always become demoralized and leg it straight away. That seems very binary though.
Hi guys, was just soloing to 50 today and got annoyed at burn making mobs run away :@
I thought they changed it so burn didn't have the fear factor attached any more?
Or is it because I don't have a taunt aura, I'm not sure :S
Anyone know the answer?
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