Scrapper Attack Idea - Gun + Sword
By
Angelxman81,
Posted on: 2011-06-04 16:49 in Suggestions and Ideas
For those who missed it, my point was that it doesn't make a heckuva lot of sense to give a Scrapper (a close combat specialist) a weapon that is ONLY intended for Range no matter the fact that some sets already have a few ranged powers... because those powers are making use of the Melee weapon they already have in some way.
Also, using NPCs as an argument for why a PC should get something is just plain illogical. They are given powers for very different reasons than a PC is. Take your KoA example, without the wrist bows, it would be far easier to hover above them and be safe... they were given range not because the Devs felt "scrappery" NPCs need crossbows, but because they needed ranged powers so that PCs don't game the system and those weapons fit the theme of the NPC Group.
I also have issue with forcing re-draw within a single powerset... unless of course you want them to create an entirely new weapon stance with blade in right and gun in offhand... but that would take a lot more work, and make [Brawl] even more convoluted (programming-wise).
Finally, the T9 proposed for this set makes little sense. How does one attack enemies around you with a sword, and then simoltaneously fire shots, missing all of those folks, and only hitting folks farther out?
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Now THIS, I can get behind.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Dominator assault set. Sorted.
Smeg, it's not like they HAVE any natural options at the moment as it is. |
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Originally Posted by MondoCool
But to answer your question: The gun is the minor part of the pair. The gun+sword pair uses the SWORD as the primary weapon and the gun as the secondary. It's no different from a Scrapper who uses Katana and Weapons Mastery: the katana is his main weapon, the shuriken and caltrops his secondary.
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Likewise, I am against the idea of a Gun APP for melee ATs as well, with the possible exception of using the gun to offer customization to the Weapon Mastery pool in some way, perhaps.
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More thematic? More thematic than a signature character who had a sword and a pistol?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
If Doms got an assault set with a Katana, I'd rather they pair it with shuriken for ranged since that requires less animations and it's actually thematic.
If Doms got an assault set with Pistols, I'd rather they pair it with Martial Arts since it would require some animation work to keep the pistols drawn, but wouldn't need as many custom options and is more thematic. Or, I recall in the past suggesting a 'Weapons Assault' set for dom that basically used Martial Arts, Pistols, Katana, Dual Blades, Archery and Throwing Stars all in one set but limited in that you can only use one type of weapon mix at a time. The 'Build up/Aim/Power Boost' of the set would be 'Equipment Change' which would create a burst of smoke + PBAoE minor placate and would recharge all your attacks instantly while equipping a new set of thematic weapon mixes. |
More thematic than, say, every single army officer from the past who used to use a sword and pistol?
Revolver and sabre. Flintlock and half-hand katana. Modern pistol and energy-sword. Theres never 'just one theme'. What you consider 'more' thematic, others do not. And I assume that either version would require a chunk more animation work to not look a bit wierd.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I have heard folks talk of making a Melee/Summon or an Assault/Summon AT as well that would feature pets whose role is more buffing than attack. I say, make both the Summon and the one you proposed... the one for Red and the other for Blue.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Or they should just make a damn Assault/Armour AT already. It's the only type (I can think of) missing from the game that makes decent sense.
And no, its NOT tank maging. HEATs and VEATs have Assault/Armour, and they are not tank mages. End. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And no, its NOT tank maging. HEATs and VEATs have Assault/Armour, and they are not tank mages. End.
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HEATs and VEATs aren't tank mages because they are very limited in what specific powers they are allowed to take.
You start giving an AT access to Dominator Assault sets paired with Scrapper armor sets and you'd quickly get into the overpowered realm, unless you gutted both sides of it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I don't know about that... I think it would more depend on the Dmg and various protective Mods that are given to this new AT. I don't think most would argue that an Assault set stands up to a Scrapper's Melee set in terms of Dmg... and part of what seperates them is the Scrapper's higher Dmg Mod.
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I doubt we'll see a high damage/good armor AT that has assault and armor sets. |
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I don't know about that... I think it would more depend on the Dmg and various protective Mods that are given to this new AT. I don't think most would argue that an Assault set stands up to a Scrapper's Melee set in terms of Dmg... and part of what seperates them is the Scrapper's higher Dmg Mod.
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You'll either have lower damage or less effective mitigation. Perhaps both.
I would expect somewhat less than scrapper level mitigation, with Stalker/Blaster HP, and maybe somewhere between Defender and Corruptor damage if we were to get an AT like that.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Claws has 2 ranged attacks (Focus and Shockwave), Kinetic Melee has 2 ranged attacks (Focused Burst and Repulsing Torrent), Spines has 2 Ranged attacks Impale and Throw Spines.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Gun + Sword would make a better Assault set, and I would totally /sign on that.
But absolutely /unsigned for a Scrapper set. You're not getting a variety of ranged attacks in a melee AT where other sets are lucky to get one, even if you do sacrifice Build Up to achieve it. ----- Claws and Kinetic Melee each have one ranged attack, and Spines has one ranged attack and a wide-ish PBAoE power. They don't all have 3 ranged attacks doing moderate to high damage. |
Sooo...you're wrong.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Building off of Mondo's suggestion, but keeping it to TWO ranged attacks.
Quick Slice - Make a quick slice attack with your sword (ST, Lethal Damage, -Def, basically a Gambler's Cut clone)
Low Cut - A low striking manuever intended to slow your target (ST, Lethal Damage, -Speed, basically a Sting of the Wasp Clone with -SPD instead of -Def)
Point Blank - You roll along the ground dodging attacks *somethign akin to Combat Jumping* releasing a round of fire on your target knocking them into the air (ST, Lethal Damage, 7ft Range...using the pistol but the manuever is still melee, +5% Defense)
Blade Arc (basically a Flashing Steel Clone)
Armor Breaker - You slash your enemy then release a point blank shot to their wound (ST, Lethal DMG 2 tick DOT, -Res)
Focused Shot (A clone of Executioners shot, with a sword in the other hand, this keeps it to 40ft)
Confront
Rapid Fire (25ft Range Cone...rapid firing of the pistol)
All-Out Attack - PBAOE attack with Main damage (sword) in 8ft, then additional DOT (Pistol) to all around in 15-20ft
Sword and Pistol set, has two ranged attacks and a bigger than average PBAOE but it's tier 9. Of those ranged attacks, it keeps the single target version in the same range as Imaple, Focus, Focused Burst (and the attack it's being cloned from is only 40ft anyways), with it's ranged cone being LESS than Throw Spines (30ft), Shockwave (30ft) or Repulsing Turrent (40ft), with my idea being to keep it close to Empty Clips.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
They could always make two versions of the Gun/Sword combo. They could make a version that is for Melee ATs and contains more sword powers than pistol and Ranged AT version that has more pistol powers than sword.
For example for Melee ATs would get Sword and Pistol which could be:
1) Chop (ST Melee Moderate Damage, -Def)
2) Pistol Whip (ST Melee Minor Damage, Stun)
3) Slice (Cone Melee Moderate Damage, -Def)
4) Build Up (Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers), Taunt (Tankers)
5) Rapid Shot (Cone Ranged Moderate Damage, Knockdown)
6) Taunt (Brute), Confront (Scrapper), Placate (Stalker), Build Up (Tankers)
7) Disembowel (ST Melee High Damage, -Def, Knock Up)
8) Executioners Shot (ST Ranged High Damage, Close(60ft?), Knockdown)
9) All out Attack (PBAoE, High Damage Melee -Def, Moderate Damage Close Knockdown) - split damage like Lightning Rod
And for Ranged ATs would get Pistol and Sword which could be:
1) Quick Shot (ST Minor Ranged Damage, quick recharge)
2) Aimed Shot (ST Moderate Ranged Damage, knockdown)
3) Rapid Shot (Cone Moderate Ranged Damage, Knockdown)
4) Hack (ST High Melee Damage, -Def)
5) Build Up
6) Slice (Cone Melee Moderate Damage, -Def)
7) Executioners Shot (Close, High Damage, Knockdown)
8) Piercing Round (Close Narrow Cone, High Damage, -Res)
9) All out Attack (PBAoE, Moderate Damage Melee -Def, High Damage Close Knockdown) - split damage like Lightning Rod
Ive borrowed attacks from existing sets so names etc could be changed to make it more balanced.
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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If they just had the set do good DPS to begin with, Id actually be okay with not seeing build up or similar power in the set.
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Originally Posted by Tired Angel
They could always make two versions of the Gun/Sword combo. They could make a version that is for Melee ATs and contains more sword powers than pistol and Ranged AT version that has more pistol powers than sword.
For example for Melee ATs would get Sword and Pistol which could be: 1) Chop (ST Melee Moderate Damage, -Def) 2) Pistol Whip (ST Melee Minor Damage, Stun) 3) Slice (Cone Melee Moderate Damage, -Def) 4) Build Up (Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers), Taunt (Tankers) 5) Rapid Shot (Cone Ranged Moderate Damage, Knockdown) 6) Taunt (Brute), Confront (Scrapper), Placate (Stalker), Build Up (Tankers) 7) Disembowel (ST Melee High Damage, -Def, Knock Up) 8) Executioners Shot (ST Ranged High Damage, Close(60ft?), Knockdown) 9) All out Attack (PBAoE, High Damage Melee -Def, Moderate Damage Close Knockdown) - split damage like Lightning Rod And for Ranged ATs would get Pistol and Sword which could be: 1) Quick Shot (ST Minor Ranged Damage, quick recharge) 2) Aimed Shot (ST Moderate Ranged Damage, knockdown) 3) Rapid Shot (Cone Moderate Ranged Damage, Knockdown) 4) Hack (ST High Melee Damage, -Def) 5) Build Up 6) Slice (Cone Melee Moderate Damage, -Def) 7) Executioners Shot (Close, High Damage, Knockdown) 8) Piercing Round (Close Narrow Cone, High Damage, -Res) 9) All out Attack (PBAoE, Moderate Damage Melee -Def, High Damage Close Knockdown) - split damage like Lightning Rod Ive borrowed attacks from existing sets so names etc could be changed to make it more balanced. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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That was honestly the idea. The small amount of extra ranged options and the single-target -res power (like a hybrid of Follow Up+Surveillance) made up for the lack of a build up.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
If they just had the set do good DPS to begin with, Id actually be okay with not seeing build up or similar power in the set.
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What? Really? My Claws/SR/Weapons scrapper has FIVE ranged attacks - Focus, Shockwave, Caltrops, Shuriken, Exploding Shuriken. They're hardly gimmick attacks; they do very respectable damage. Considering that the heaviest hitters in the gun+sword set are going to be melee attacks, there's no reason for the scrapper to stay out of melee for long. Even if he does, he'll be limited in his damage dealing.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Those other "weapons" are from a completely different set, and each is only used once to give the character access to specific "gimmick" powers.
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Your problem seems to be with the "gun" idea rather than the fact that scrappers can get ranged attacks. I mean, if you don't like guns, I understand, but this is a powerset that uses them. =/
If it was less automatic pistol and more sawed-off shotgun it'd mesh better, conceptually and allow for more melee-ish gunfire.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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And it's a good one, and it's different. The set will lack +Tohit, but that can be fixed with slotting/pool powers.
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Originally Posted by MondoCool
That was honestly the idea. The small amount of extra ranged options and the single-target -res power (like a hybrid of Follow Up+Surveillance) made up for the lack of a build up.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It's not automatic pistol. It's semi-automatic shots, like Dual Pistols. The set is also designed with, say, a Knives of Artemis style wrist crossbow in mind, instead of an actual pistol. Because, to anti gun liberals, while technologically advanced handheld weapons that fire hard metal projectiles to injure or kill others are evil death-murdering machines, slightly less technologically advanced handheld weapons that fire hard metal projectiles to injure or kill others are perfectly fine.
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
If it was less automatic pistol and more sawed-off shotgun it'd mesh better, conceptually and allow for more melee-ish gunfire.
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Oh Mondo you and your trolling.
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Originally Posted by MondoCool
It's not automatic pistol. It's semi-automatic shots, like Dual Pistols. The set is also designed with, say, a Knives of Artemis style wrist crossbow in mind, instead of an actual pistol. Because, to anti gun liberals, while technologically advanced handheld weapons that fire hard metal projectiles to injure or kill others are evil death-murdering machines, slightly less technologically advanced handheld weapons that fire hard metal projectiles to injure or kill others are perfectly fine.
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Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Never mind the stabbing and slicing with a metal sword |
Originally Posted by MondoCool
It's not automatic pistol. It's semi-automatic shots, like Dual Pistols. The set is also designed with, say, a Knives of Artemis style wrist crossbow in mind, instead of an actual pistol. Because, to anti gun liberals, while technologically advanced handheld weapons that fire hard metal projectiles to injure or kill others are evil death-murdering machines, slightly less technologically advanced handheld weapons that fire hard metal projectiles to injure or kill others are perfectly fine.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I am also dubious of the suggestion to instead create a Katana 'Manipulation'-styled set for Blasters... as again it crosses that above barrier. There is just something about the aesthetics of it that I don't like.