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This. Make a corruptor, it's a nice change of pace from melee. And end game you can pimp them out to solo gms.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Squishy recommendations, huh?
I dig my corruptors. The damage is good. The mitigation is good. That's what we all love, right? I've got a dp/storm and a dark/rad that I swap between regularly. I just rebuilt Hellbird as a... I think fire/pain, but it may have been fire/dark. I dig cors because the have the mitigation blasters don't get and the damage output that defenders don't get. It's a damn fine mix. |
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Regardless, in most cases corruptors outdamage defenders.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm just curious if this includes the Damage Buff Defenders get solo.
That said, Corrs, imo, tend to win out just because they get the attacks sooner.  |
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The buff defenders get while solo is basically a SOs worth of straight damage buff (scales up in the lowbie levels but I don't remember the spread) which is affected by the damage cap if my memory is working. Scourge and the higher damage mod are still going to stomp all over that.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm just curious if this includes the Damage Buff Defenders get solo.
That said, Corrs, imo, tend to win out just because they get the attacks sooner. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Corrs get Fire. [/debate]|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm just curious if this includes the Damage Buff Defenders get solo.
That said, Corrs, imo, tend to win out just because they get the attacks sooner. |
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Now see. This makes sense! |
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Corrs get Fire. [/debate]
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But hearing Corrs win out at the damage cap, all I can think is...so? There's what, one Buff set that makes this an issue?
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Whats a nonmelee toon? 
I want to make an Ill/Rad controller but I've never gotten around to it.
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
I approve of the amount of Corruptor responses in here.
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This I'm curious about though. Do you mean Elude? Benumb won't reduce the amount of +res that Unstoppable grants an AV, but if they're hit with Benumb before they activate a defense based godmode, they'll get less defense from it than they normally would. Benumb does -special and resistances aren't affected by + or -special, whereas defense is.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
No other powerset has anything as powerful as Benumb, which can almost negate an AV's unstoppable.
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Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
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The problem is you're assuming they will hit their damage caps or be at them all the time. In actual pick-up group gameplay, I find kinetics players to be fairly rare on my server. Good kinetics players are nearly impossible to find. They usually press Fulcrum Shift when most of the spawn is already dead. So, the only way to reliably hit the damage caps is to play as a kinetics.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Damage buff caps: Cor +400%; Def +300%
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Corrupter Fulcrum Shift: 40% + 20% x 10 = 240% bonus
Defender Fulcrum Shift: 50% + 25% x 10 = 300% bonus
Even a good kinetics player won't always be in range of the full 10 targets when they press Fulcrum Shift. Try running your numbers again with those damage bonuses from buffs, then look at the numbers with 5 FS buffs, and no FS at all (being a non-kinetics combination). Don't forget to include the 30% damage bonus Defenders get while solo from their inherent power.
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Originally Posted by Silas
This I'm curious about though. Do you mean Elude? Benumb won't reduce the amount of +res that Unstoppable grants an AV, but if they're hit with Benumb before they activate a defense based godmode, they'll get less defense from it than they normally would. Benumb does -special and resistances aren't affected by + or -special, whereas defense is.
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Unstoppable should be giving him 70% to all resistances, not 7%, but Benumb works on resistance buffs. The buffs labeled "Resistance" are not affected by Benumb because they were on him before Benumb was. Those are the inherent resistances the Cyclops has.
Even using your numbers:
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And adding in the 30% from defender inherent, 95% from enhancement slotting and the energy chain I used earlier:|
Corrupter Fulcrum Shift: 40% + 20% x 10 = 240% bonus Defender Fulcrum Shift: 50% + 25% x 10 = 300% bonus |
Corruptor Base Damage:
240.24 (1+.95+2.4) = 1045.044
Defender Base Damage:
208.21 (1+.95+.3+3) bzzt, cap stops it at 4 = 832.84
And this STILL ignores scourge.
Can anyone show me even a single case where a defender can dish out more damage than a corruptor using the same powersets?
Also, has anyone come up with a semi-accurate representation of the overall benefit of scourge?
Be well, people of CoH.
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Sonic blast is probably the main contender there.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Can anyone show me even a single case where a defender can dish out more damage than a corruptor using the same powersets?
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| Also, has anyone come up with a semi-accurate representation of the overall benefit of scourge? |
In my experience, single-target attack scourging against anything less than a relatively tough boss (+con, has resistance, has extra health, etc) tends to mainly be lost on overkill, but it's very nice in AOEs.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Assuming ED-compliant slotting and no other damage buffs, an SO's worth of damage buff (30% on top of 195%) is equivalent to the Corrupter's base-AT-mod advantage (~15%). That's almost certainly intentional. Scourge remains an advantage for the Corrupter, but then the Defender may have better buff/debuffs to compensate.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The buff defenders get while solo is basically a SOs worth of straight damage buff (scales up in the lowbie levels but I don't remember the spread) which is affected by the damage cap if my memory is working. Scourge and the higher damage mod are still going to stomp all over that.
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On the whole, the comparison favors the Corrupter, but I don't think it's accurate to say that Defenders aren't in the same ballpark with Corrupters, or that solo Corrupters stomp all over solo Defenders.
As for your latest question, Defender Sonic Blast is generally considered superior to the Corrupter version. The Corrupter gets the AT's innate 15% damage-mod advantage and Scourge, but the Defender's -RES debuffs are 33% stronger (-20% per hit versus -15%). Whether a particular Sonic Blast Defender will outdamage a particular Sonic Blast Corrupter will vary depending on the situation and on the specifics of each build, but it seems pretty clear that if you want to roll a sonic blast support character, you might as well go for the Defender.
Personally, I would roll a Corrupter if I were interested in any other blast set, these days.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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fire/X corrs win all the time!
http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/114575130-4.jpg
...(you can ignore the dp/traps def on the team <.< that was the only pug spot).
~
That aside, I would completely agree with Obitus. What I've heard is the same: if you want sonic blast, go with a defender (also, traps for primary for better defensive numbers, if you want them), otherwise, just make it a corr.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
What would be better over all
Def -ice//emp
Def fire//emp
Corr -fire//pain
Corr- energy???//pain
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Well, I'm just making a casual remark, not putting in the effort you have on this question, but it seems to me there's a possibly significant difference between solo and teamed. No Defender or Corruptor except Kinetics will be hitting the damage cap solo, except for rare instances of bingeing on red skittles. Scourge is also somewhat less important solo, I'd think, since it's most useful against AVs (because they last a long time at lower than 50% life). Lastly, Defenders who use use self-buffs or debuffs should get a little bit more effect out of them than Corruptors do, as I understand it.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Even using your numbers:
And adding in the 30% from defender inherent, 95% from enhancement slotting and the energy chain I used earlier: Corruptor Base Damage: 240.24 (1+.95+2.4) = 1045.044 Defender Base Damage: 208.21 (1+.95+.3+3) bzzt, cap stops it at 4 = 832.84 And this STILL ignores scourge. Can anyone show me even a single case where a defender can dish out more damage than a corruptor using the same powersets? Also, has anyone come up with a semi-accurate representation of the overall benefit of scourge? |
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Well...|
Originally Posted by Calvin-
What would be better over all
Def -ice//emp Def fire//emp Corr -fire//pain Corr- energy???//pain |
Fire/Emp is out because it can't be made. Defenders don't have Fire Blast, and Corrs don't have Empathy.
Of those combos listed, Id say Fire/Pain
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Ran a fire/pain at 50 during beta and greatly enjoyed how well it soloed even with just SOs.
As for the sonic def versus cor discussion... and the dark lord said, "Let There Be Math," and there was.
Shout, Shriek, Scream, Shriek? Sure, what the hell...
Defender:
76.64+30.36+47.7+30.36 = 185.06
Shout (2.904 cast) is -20% DR for 10 seconds
Shriek (1.188 cast) is -20% DR for 5 seconds
Scream (1.848 cast) is -20% DR for 7 seconds
Chain time using arcanatime is 7.128 seconds
Now, I'm not entirely sure about the mechanics of DR debuffs, but every time they've come up in DPS discussions, the big brains around here have stated that you should just consider it a chain multiplier, meaning if we call the chain a persistent 80% DR debuff, then we just add on 80% more damage (ignoring the cap) after all other buffs are in place. If I'm wrong, someone please take my post and tweak it with corrections.
So now we have a solo defender with Ed capped damage enhancement, another 30% for being solo and chain doing 185.06 damage, then taking on 80% DR debuff.
(185.06*(1+.95+.3))*1.8 = 749.493 damage per chain
The corruptor has the following:
15% for each attack. 15*4 = 60% DR debuff with the same durations, no solo bonus.
88.42+41.7+58.4+41.7 = 230.22
(230.22*(1+.95))*1.6 = 718.2864
The defender wins, but only if we continue to ignore scourge.
Wait... I know what to do:
Paging Arcanaville. Arcanaville, please report for duty.
Be well, people of CoH.
What I don't see factored in are the buff/debuffs from the buff/debuff set. Yes, there are some notable cases where the values are the same for pseudo-pets (Sleet, Tar Patch, FR), but when a defender debuffs resists, it's 33% higher.
Now, I'm sure that even considering that debuff would not get the defender's damage to equal the corr's with scourge. What I also don't doubt is that the defender debuffs will cause team (or league) damage to increase more than the corresponding corruptor. This is the scrapper forum so I'll put it in your terms, that Headsplitter will probably more than make up the difference of a corruptor's individual damage after Enervating Field and Shriek are used (50% vs 37.5% -res). Yes, I know there's additional factors such as purple patch, etc to consider, but bottom line, churning out attack chain numbers doesn't begin to tell the story of effectiveness of the buff/debuff classes. Yes it's sufficient enough for scrappers, that's all they bring is their attack chain, not so for Corr/Def or even MM/Troller comparisons.
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Typically I choose:
Sonic Blast - Defender
Traps - Defender, Unless it's Fire Blast and I have a spare PvP IO to make up the defense difference.
FF and Sonic Bubbles - Either depending on the build Goals, but more often defender.
Ice Blast - Either
Fire Blast - Corruptor
Everything else - Determined by the defensive set and the individual build, but favoring the Corruptor most times.
I could happily accept that when bringing in team variables, the defender can take the lead, but this is a melee player asking for insight in the scrapper forum about squishies.
Perhaps the OP should tell us whether he cares about the teaming ramifications or if he was specifically placing his inquiry here since he plans to solo with his squishy.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I think the point isnt that the Defender necessarily has a huge advantage when solo; it's that whatever advantages the Corrupter might have (burst damage, potentially) are insignificant when compared with the Defender's rather immense advantage with respect to the set's strength (heavy RES debuffing, particularly in a team setting).|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
As for the sonic def versus cor discussion... and the dark lord said, "Let There Be Math," and there was.
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After all, if you're looking for great up-front damage, high-DPA attacks, and/or AOE carnage, Sonic Blast isn't really even in the running. If you want what Sonic Blast does have to offer, then you might as well go whole hog.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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This is tricky. Benumb doesn't affect resistances. Benumb debuffs strength, specifically in this case the strength associated with the damage types. In other words, smashing strength, lethal strength, fire strength, etc. Its like having an anti-Build Up active. This does reduce the *damage* the critter can do for obvious reasons. It should *also* reduce the strength of any resistance powers they are running, just as damage strength *buffs* should increase the strength of any resistance powers running. This is not a separate effect: this is literally what a smashing strength debuff should so: reduce *all* powers that tamper with "Smashing" in some way, including powers that attempt to buff the Res aspect of "Smashing."|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
It definitely works on resistance buffs, like Unstoppable. I have tested it in Architect Entertainment against a Cyclops, as well as used it against many AVs that use Unstoppable. It isn't documented in game or on City of Data. If you play on Virtue, I can prove it to you in-person. For now, this screenshot will have to do...
Unstoppable should be giving him 70% to all resistances, not 7%, but Benumb works on resistance buffs. The buffs labeled "Resistance" are not affected by Benumb because they were on him before Benumb was. Those are the inherent resistances the Cyclops has. |
So why doesn't Build Up boost *our* Unstoppable or other resistance powers? Because all player resistance self buff powers are specifically flagged to ignore strength buffs: you can't buff them and you can't debuff them (you can slot them, however). Basically, damage-typed strength buffs and debuffs *should* affect resistances just like they affect damaging powers, but most of our resistance powers are flagged to be immune to that.
With critters, its a little more complicated. *Some* powers are flagged that way, and *some* are not. Powers flagged to ignore strength debuffs will ignore Benumb. Other powers won't. Mission Maker Unstoppable is not flagged to ignore strength buffs/debuffs, so Benumb can debuff the resistance of a custom critter using unstoppable.
But its difficult to predict when a power will show up flagged or not flagged. Honestly, its because critter don't complain so they can't /bug a malfunctioning power and players don't usually /bug situations when their powers work as they expect they should, even if that's unintended. So critter powers are a lot more inconsistent here.
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Scourge is tricky to account for in real-life terms, because its situational in its benefit. Specifically, because it only kicks in at low health, the benefit you're likely to get is somewhat dependent on the target being at low health for at least a few attacks. When you're killing everything in 4 attacks, say, then the minimum noticable improvement will reduce that to 3. Anything weaker than that won't be noticed (at least on average). Because players are running through multiple attack sequences as they attack different targets, this doesn't mean any buff lower than 25% will be unnoticable, but it does mean buffs that don't reduce the number of attacks you would have needed by at least one won't be: they will just contribute to overkill.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Paging Arcanaville. Arcanaville, please report for duty.
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And the problem there is that its in solo situations where a player is more likely to be attacking weaker targets where Scourge will have a lower net benefit. Paragonwiki's article on Scourge suggests estimating Scourge as having a 30% increase to damage effect, meaning multiply your damage output by 1.3 (*not* +30% damage buff). However, I don't think that simplified analysis is likely to be correct, because of my prior experience with analyzing the SR passive resistances which are an inverse situation. Not just situationally, but also statistically the SR passives tended to be stronger than the simplified calculations suggested. I wouldn't extrapolate that to Scourge and say its also stronger than estimated, but I would say that it bears a much more indepth analysis.
Unfortunately, that's something that will take me longer than just a few minutes, so I'll have to find the time to do that later.
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Roger that. Thanks for putting it on the agenda, A.
Be well, people of CoH.
I've always estimated Scourge at 7% to 15% (aka 1.15x), using the higher number for rains and the lower number for standard attacks. I would think 30% would be the maximum, something you'd only see on AVs and EBs, and perhaps maybe Bosses. Everything else should simply die too quickly to really leverage scourge as well. Maybe I've been underestimating it by too large a margin.
I've also always felt the Vigilance Solo buff should have been ~50 to 60 +damage to actually equal out to Corruptors.
Energy Blast chain:
Burst, Bolt, Blast, Bolt, repeat
Corruptor Base Damage:
88.42+41.71+68.4+41.71 = 240.24
Defender Base Damage:
76.63+36.15+59.28+36.15 = 208.21
Damage buff caps: Cor +400%; Def +300%
Cor chain at damage cap: 1201.2
Def chain at damage cap: 832.84
This doesn't even consider scourge. Defender damage output is not in the same ballpark. Even unslotted and ignoring scourge, which we shouldn't do, cor damage is 15% higher and it just goes up from there.
That said, Corrs, imo, tend to win out just because they get the attacks sooner.
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