After playing Kinetic Melee extensively on what is arguably one of the best AT to play with it...
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"Top End Performace" notwithstanding, I totally agree with the above. It took me a bit away from it to actually get into KM, but the set looks and sounds great and runs well through the early/mid game especially on P/U teams full of what are likely casual to slightly more often than that players.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
All in all, the powerset is more focused on providing a balanced experience through the whole game than balance at high levels, and that's smart. Let's face it, few players care about the latter part ; we're maybe a few dozens actively speaking about highend performance on here, there's maybe a few hundreds or thousands caring about that in game. Compare and contrast with the 70,000 or 80,000 subscribers we have - as in any game, most players are casual. More importantly, even for spreadsheet-loving number junkies like me, the set is so much fun than any concern about performance just disappears.
Kinetic Melee is a fantastic, well designed powerset. It's such a departure from older powersets, that seemed to be mostly about making cool animations and cool powers, and then trying to adjust the numbers to make it somewhat fit. With KM you can really see a lot of thought went into it, and everything just works as a whole. Thumbs up for a job well done. It's things like this that give me faith in the current dev team. |
Very smart to release it with GR, gives new players a nice looking set with decent damage, fun utility (KD for the win!) and a very good attack chain flow throughout the game. Even if it isn't a top end dps one, it is a smooth one and that goes along way towards my fun factor.
As far as PS is concerned, my theory is that with enough recharge to overlap buffs (if not the active buffing period), then it basically becomes mini-fury for scrappers. I play so many brutes that the mechanic seems natural. *shrug* Again, probably not TopEndPerformance, but effective enough to be very good.
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You're arguing burst damage, complaining about KM's need to ramp up, while throwing around Katana numbers that assume the target will be already be under the effect of your two -res procs?
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
The -res and purple procs make the big difference, but I don't really want to add sustainable DPS to the discussion, as you mind as well add other variables like -DMG, -Res, damage types, who gets more out of damage buffs, who has more AoE DPS, who has more AoE Burst damage, and more.
My point was that the time it takes to reach KM's DPS is a disadvantage, as other sets can peak their DPS much sooner. |
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No, one quarter of that, so -10% on average over a 9 seconds burst. It's -20% on continual DPS.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
You're arguing burst damage, complaining about KM's need to ramp up, while throwing around Katana numbers that assume the target will be already be under the effect of your two -res procs?
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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He is correct, in a PM he suggested several things that I could do to improve my DPS, but it would sacrifice a bit +rech, and some of the end drain I enjoy when solo. As I told Micro, I will test the changes tomorrow, and post the time. Then someone who is good at da maths can figure out what the DPS is. |
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I've got one somewhere,... just have to figure out which computer. From what I am seeing of Zyphoid's build though, and some calculations of another, KM can destroy that. I also know firsthand that DB can quickly overshoot it.
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I agree, with what another poster said about PS being like a scrapper furry with enough +rech. Not to mention CS may not crit, but all of the other attacks do...
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Same. |
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
And this is why I play it on a stalker.
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I built a scrap, a tank and a stalker to try the set out on all three when it was released. (The scrap and stalker I played all the way to 50. The tank is 30 at the moment. She'd probably be at 50 too by now if I hadn't gotten distracted by the Incarnate trials-)
I found pretty early on that I enjoyed the stalker quite a bit more than the other two, and vastly prefered her traditional Build Up to PS. PS is nice in theory, but "in the wild" I just wasn't as impressed. As I mentioned in another thread recently, the scrap is also prone to some pretty bizarre steaks of missing... In spite of Focused Acc in his Epic and slotting for accuracy over-kill in addition, he goes through odd spells of not being able to hit the broad side of a barn. o_0 I've never noticed that on any of my other scraps.
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I understand that. I'm just saying that advantage only matters in fights that end in less than the break-even time, which is six KM attacks. If the fight takes longer than that, the supposed disadvantage doesn't materialize in actual fact.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
My point was that the time it takes to reach KM's DPS is a disadvantage, as other sets can peak their DPS much sooner.
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It would be like saying a click buff that activated in 0.3 seconds and buffed damage by +50% for five seconds has an advantage over Build Up in that Build Up takes longer to reach its peak damage buff.
Keep in mind I'm saying in six attacks the *total* effect breaks even. Power Siphon catches up to Build Up (for scrappers) in only about four attacks. It then surpasses Build Up and continues going upward until its doing over fifty percentage points more buff. After six attacks (meaning: on attack seven), a KM with Power Siphon would have dealt more total damage overall than a hypothetical KM Scrapper with Build Up. And the KM with BU would have no way of catching up with an equivalently slotted KM with PS scrapper. Power Siphon's uptime is higher than BU: BU cannot catch up. And I'm not even counting the effect of concentrated strike, which makes PS's uptime even better vs BU.
So basically, even if you can kill one boss in six attacks, if you're fighting two Power Siphon beats BU. BU's frontloaded advantage isn't even a mitigation advantage *unless* that boss is dead in six. If its dead in seven, KM will *swamp* BU's frontload advantage, negating it completely. Not only will it kill faster overall, it will also kill that first target itself quicker. *Power Siphon* will have the true frontloaded advantage.
Lets try an experiment. Given the build you posted above, post your attack chain and what you think the damage is for that chain if you start with BU. Then lets replace BU with Power Siphon and keep the chain the same and see at what point does the Power Siphon chain overtake the BU chain. In terms of kills, lets see which chain drops the first target first, which is the way frontloading is supposed to help, and what the kill speed for both chains looks like over time.
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Another plus for a stalker is that Burst currently has a 100% chance to crit while in Hide.
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Originally Posted by Bright
Same.
I built a scrap, a tank and a stalker to try the set out on all three when it was released. (The scrap and stalker I played all the way to 50. The tank is 30 at the moment. She'd probably be at 50 too by now if I hadn't gotten distracted by the Incarnate trials-) I found pretty early on that I enjoyed the stalker quite a bit more than the other two, and vastly prefered her traditional Build Up to PS. PS is nice in theory, but "in the wild" I just wasn't as impressed. As I mentioned in another thread recently, the scrap is also prone to some pretty bizarre steaks of missing... In spite of Focused Acc in his Epic and slotting for accuracy over-kill in addition, he goes through odd spells of not being able to hit the broad side of a barn. o_0 I've never noticed that on any of my other scraps. |
On beta, using Viki, and the following build. I cut my time to 2 min 11 seconds. I can live with that, and may very well convert this build to my live build. It is only 2 slots, and 1 power off from my current live build.
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...0ECD3FB3D1F0C2
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I don't think that's fair, as Katana's attacks are faster than KM's, meaning it peaks its DPS sooner with the use of PS. I also suspect Katana has better base DPS, but that's just an assumption. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Lets try an experiment. Given the build you posted above, post your attack chain and what you think the damage is for that chain if you start with BU. Then lets replace BU with Power Siphon and keep the chain the same and see at what point does the Power Siphon chain overtake the BU chain. In terms of kills, lets see which chain drops the first target first, which is the way frontloading is supposed to help, and what the kill speed for both chains looks like over time.
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The best way to compare would be to take the build I posted and switch it from Katana to KM. Which I just did, so if you would be so kind as to do the calculating:
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1433;699;1398;HEX;| |78DA6594DB4F135110C6CFB65B2EA5A59472C7524BA1575868F4D160543451A856A| |AC64BB42EED81AE346DD32E09BCF937787DF48EFAC7797957ACB3F31D4A939290DF| |39DF993333FBCD6E7307EB3E219E5F14DAF095AAD96A150BA5A6D968C8E6406EDF3| |66DAB5E13FD4288F0895CCCC9AA94C6865593B6552A5EB26DB3B417E99CAECB1D59| |6B49A3B0EFECB6E44E551EC856F07AAD229BB2661B270B5FBE5EAF1A9BD26C58B55| |D2F6F0A0D29CB7E5E5EB3762B361D044EA2CAB2D9AA588DE0D58655322ED7CB87C5| |9CD9B265F3708A7A4BD3FFFDA0507F6D8FC8B884C88ABE346320CEF0A518C349E09| |0101239E7D134BEA58B61CD39190D007EC698171862DCA4704D856B88F322C08780| |09E498C2E55B14EE46B8E61E47F818E30175EB51DD7AF604B7F98C31B3C338B30B2| |4DD0EE62ED04E17628212F623A1E847C23C49834A1ACCF0A579928620B986208D00| |13408C02FCA82EFCB35CE111351480A407DEB14523EF19539F18731F18D18F8C271| |41E54FD07056748B7F924FD0F38662CFD05FE306E53DD90F22384F613F0C34527E3| |AAA3F1196ED24DD2A47A8A496711160B6B8E0D6E115F831D0FA98569D5C5B4B20F6| |6CEC1C505B898AA30562C864E8967D5106731C428A617C3F462985E0C932D507858| |191C46D34FA96E4499153139E9D96D40022546B4CCB84319E655C179948823771C9| |512E82285ECA314BEA80A2E46394388A4A47AD0E477F632F58DB1FC153862AC7C61| |643F330A34970C6E69194C3E0B1CD1F40D55C278CBC15B54625549ABCB78F9F4CE2| |7E516F075012E27E0EB125C8EE89D8FA89D3EBDE36CDB94AC47C9F628E77A94F33D| |CA66B7D2C73DE7755597248D83064784F336722B3FBC9D8F556878A25FA7925BBBC| |76E2FDF65ACACF11B96BD4148889FDD57937CF5F7A9E4D16099EB0DF09AA1BF025E| |E2B7E705E3B1D7311FFD985DEBEDAE75BE6BBD11A25B6AFD1FEAA5DCAD| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Kinetic Melee Chain=QS-BB-QS-SB-BB-CS, or anything better you find.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Oh, and FYI taking in account Crits, via Mids:
Katana's attacks ->
Sting of the Wasp 79.8 damage in 1.32 seconds = 60.45DPA
Gamblers Cut 57.8 damage in .924 seconds = 62.55DPA
Flashing Steel 68.1 damage in 1.32 seconds = 51.59DPA
Divine Avalanche 57.8 damage in 1.584 seconds = 36.49DPA
The Lotus Drops 91.3 damage in 1.98 seconds = 46.11DPA
Soaring Dragon 123.9 damage in 1.584 seconds = 78.22DPA
Golden Dragonfly 164 damage in 1.98 seconds = 82.83DPA
Kinetic Melee ->
Quick Strike 57.8 damage in 1.056 seconds = 54.73DPA
Body Blow 79.8 damage in 1.32 seconds = 60.45DPA
Smashing Blow 101.9 damage in 1.452 seconds = 70.18DPA
Repulsing Turrent 55.1 damage in 2.244 seconds = 24.55DPA
Burst 86 damage in 2.904 seconds = 29.61DPA
Focused Burst 112.9 damage in 2.244 seconds = 50.31DPA
Concentrated Strike 222.7 damage in 3.036 seconds = 73.35DPA
So DPA numbers puts Katana higher then Kinetic, but I'll leave it to Arcanaville to do the math on Build up vs Power Siphon on identical attack chains (it takes a ton of recharge to run GD-GC-SD-GC, so putting that much recharge into kinetic melee would mean you'd need a much better attach chain then the one you picked)
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If you have a better KM chain please post it, I'm no KM expert but I tried to get CS used as soon it was up.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Oh, and FYI taking in account Crits, via Mids:
Katana's attacks -> Sting of the Wasp 79.8 damage in 1.32 seconds = 60.45DPA Gamblers Cut 57.8 damage in .924 seconds = 62.55DPA Flashing Steel 68.1 damage in 1.32 seconds = 51.59DPA Divine Avalanche 57.8 damage in 1.584 seconds = 36.49DPA The Lotus Drops 91.3 damage in 1.98 seconds = 46.11DPA Soaring Dragon 123.9 damage in 1.584 seconds = 78.22DPA Golden Dragonfly 164 damage in 1.98 seconds = 82.83DPA Kinetic Melee -> Quick Strike 57.8 damage in 1.056 seconds = 54.73DPA Body Blow 79.8 damage in 1.32 seconds = 60.45DPA Smashing Blow 101.9 damage in 1.452 seconds = 70.18DPA Repulsing Turrent 55.1 damage in 2.244 seconds = 24.55DPA Burst 86 damage in 2.904 seconds = 29.61DPA Focused Burst 112.9 damage in 2.244 seconds = 50.31DPA Concentrated Strike 222.7 damage in 3.036 seconds = 73.35DPA So DPA numbers puts Katana higher then Kinetic, but I'll leave it to Arcanaville to do the math on Build up vs Power Siphon on identical attack chains (it takes a ton of recharge to run GD-GC-SD-GC, so putting that much recharge into kinetic melee would mean you'd need a much better attach chain then the one you picked) |
Edit: BB-SB-QS-BB-SB-CS seems to be the best option looking at the DPA. And it's achievable if I get a recharge IO into CS.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I love KM sounds and animations, well, except for Concentrated Strike. What a horrible animation, what were they thinking ^_^
It kinda reminds me of the expectations I had from when dual blades came out. There was no demo at character creation screen back then, you had to level to see what powers looked looked like. I remember thinking of Thousand Cuts and going giddy, could it be omnislash? Then when I finally hit lvl 32 I got shadow maul with swords...
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I'm calculating 241 DPS with Musculature down, 269 DPS with it up. The 242 DPS I reported for the build I fiddled with was with Musculature down, so the numbers are basically identical, and the builds are very similar.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
It's a build, so no pylon run, and my DPS calculations likely differ from yours. Here's the build, maybe you can get better numbers from it:
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Here's the spreadsheet if you want to see how I calculated it. The example damage formula at the top was from an earlier Claws build, and I'm being lazy by not changing it to this one, but hopefully it's clear how I'm calculating damage based on that.
But anticipating a comment, I agree that the lower numbers don't invalidate the point you were making (as I would surely calculate Kinetic Melee lower as well), and I'm not trying to argue for either side here. Although the debuff procs won't have had a chance to add up in the initial period of the fight, Build Up should have your damage pretty high during that period, and you'll likely at least take out a boss.
I don't feel like calculating the Kinetic Melee build for comparison, though, so for all I know it's better. Anyone else feel free to have at it.
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Originally Posted by Werner
I'm calculating 241 DPS with Musculature down, 269 DPS with it up. The 242 DPS I reported for the build I fiddled with was with Musculature down, so the numbers are basically identical, and the builds are very similar.
Here's the spreadsheet if you want to see how I calculated it. The example damage formula at the top was from an earlier Claws build, and I'm being lazy by not changing it to this one, but hopefully it's clear how I'm calculating damage based on that. But anticipating a comment, I agree that the lower numbers don't invalidate the point you were making (as I would surely calculate Kinetic Melee lower as well), and I'm not trying to argue for either side here. Although the debuff procs won't have had a chance to add up in the initial period of the fight, Build Up should have your damage pretty high during that period, and you'll likely at least take out a boss. I don't feel like calculating the Kinetic Melee build for comparison, though, so for all I know it's better. Anyone else feel free to have at it. |
Thanks for that, math isn't easy for me so I kept a simpler DPS formula: Attack chain damage from mids/rounded up attack chain activation time from mids(with arcanatime)*average resistance debuff*0.95. With BU's average DPS I get a little extra lazy and replace Assault with Vengeance.
For burst DPS it's different of course, especially with the resistance debuff calculations which are done by a per-attack basis.
Anyway, here's the revised KM build for the attack chain I mentioned earlier, if anyone still wants to crunch the numbers:
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1433;695;1390;HEX;| |78DA6593D96F125114C6EFC0D085B294D2BDA5486981423B2DD14753A356136D512| |C6A5CA23885DB3296008169D2BEF937B83EBA57FDE35CDE5DF0CCF96E290924E477| |E79BB37CF7DC3BB9C30D9F10CF2E082D70B96AB65AC542A969361AB239903BB04DD| |BAAD744BF102272221773B22AA5B169D5A46D958A176DDB2CED473B6F37E4AEACB5| |A45138709EB6E56E551ECA56E85AAD229BB2661B270B5FBE5EAF1A5BD26C58B53D2| |F3F141A5296FDBCBC6AED556C7A113C892ACB66AB623542571A56C9B8542F1F1573| |66CB96CDA349F296A6FFBD9050BFB6473C256445DF2E63608FE1DB67042A8C98C5C| |8395BD3384B1701CD914682809F31EA05861837285C53E11AE2BC08F0212080AC71| |94BA49E16E846BEE31848F32EE935B8F72EB81B101989E86E959989E4DB91DCC9DA| |7275D88712AD88F82A21F05F3240D2A6930C349F3240D41720D411A06C6813805F8| |D15DF867B8C343321484A407DFBA38E71D63F223F08131F79EF198C243CA7F48708| |5749BDFA4FF017F19CB7F80DF8C5BD437ACE61186FD24E6E1A23763CAD1D8349B74| |9334A17631E12C226261DD19835B24D6318E0764614AB998CA708BE9346C2E31165| |28CA5046315C3D4A9F08C3AC4191C620CA717C7B1C57188719C6C81C2236AC01198| |7E427DA36A585193DD9ED9012450C2252B336E538579D5701E2D12A89D40A7245C2| |CA1FA08852FAA868B31AE102629A5369AFA863D7D65AC7C018EB1C3CF8CEC274681| |B69B419696C1C96781633A7D43B530DE70F036B55853D2DA0A2E9FDEF9A4DC02977| |401973489DBB98CBB1AD53B1F513B7D9AE33CB6A9588F92ED51CEF628E77A94AD6E| |A58F3DE775D597248D83068785731BD9CA776FE763151A76F4F354726B7779DA2B7| |718ABEB7CC3B2D70949F1A33B35C5A9BF4E258F8691B95E03AF18FA4BE005A3EF39| |E391D7193EFC985DEB9DAE75BE6BBD19A62CB5FE0FE374DC7B| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Kinetic Melee/Super Reflexes
Incarnate: Spiritual Core
Attack Chain: SB>QS>BB>SB>CS
Adds: Power Siphon, Aid Self (Used every 240/s), Practiced Brawler
Arcana Time: 6.888
DPS (PS Rech at 32.8/s): 255.15
Constant PS DPS: 305
Ramp-Up DPS: 279
Procs: ToD in BB and Mako in SB, Hecatomb in QS
If I replace Power Siphon with Build Up...
25/s Recharge DPS: 209.99
Burst DPS: 259.12 (10/s of Build Up's Duration)
Then for Katana, not including the two -Res Procs into the calculation since this is only being pulled from paper data I have on hand.
Alpha: Spiritual Core
Chain: GC>SD>GC>GD
DPS: 170
DPS w/ Build Up (23.4/s Rech): 242.5
Burst DPS: 340 (10/s of Build Up's Duration)
If I replace Build Up with Power Siphon...
PS (32.8/s Rech to mimic existing KM/SR for comparison) DPS: 332
Constant PS DPS: 435.43
Burst PS DPS: 382.29
I'm sure the -40% Res would just make that more amusing. Neither of these sets of numbers include Interface abilities either.
Edit: These two are using my personal KM/SR Build and a scrapped together Katana/SR to compare the two things that got brought up. Didn't see the sense in fiddling with Musculature as I was looking for the highest end chains I could manage and that becomes difficult without Spiritual involved and... I didn't want to post two sets of numbers anyway. This was meant to be a quick post 
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
i personally really enjoy KM on a stalker
BU + CS -> placate -> BU + AS can kill a boss or at least dent it 3/4 of its hp
Yea, was comparing the brute dark to scrappers, sorry, on a slight tangent of my own now >_<
And yea, that's what my biggest downfall is now. I've decided stone doesn't have enough of an edge over a dark brute to make me drop the heal, and unless I'm retarded katana is better DPS than DB anyway (plus I CAN have DA if I want/need, though Lotus vs 1000 cuts is a little :'().