After playing Kinetic Melee extensively on what is arguably one of the best AT to play with it...
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With ED cap in both and within BU, Golden Dragonfly deals more damage. And even if it didn't, Katana will have inflicted damage from both GD+GC before Kinetic Melee's CS hits.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
On the other hand, with ED-cap damage slotting in both, Concentrated Strike outside of Power Siphon does more damage than Golden Dragonfly does inside of Build Up. So that comparison doesn't hold up so well. I usually shoot CS first after hitting Power Siphon - it's huge DPA, it's got the 20% chance to instantly recharge Power Siphon, and it'll be recharged for use by the time I'm rocking the full five stacks.
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Build Up is +100%, ED cap is +95%. Golden Dragonfly does 142.64 base, 420 under those conditions. Concentrated Strike does 222.72 base, 434 under just the ED Cap. Neither of which is enough to make a meaningful dent in a boss, which if you might recall was your original point of comparison.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
With ED cap in both and within BU, Golden Dragonfly deals more damage. And even if it didn't, Katana will have inflicted damage from both GD+GC before Kinetic Melee's CS hits.
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You didn't take crits into account. Also, my point wasn't that GD could 1-shot a boss, I don't know how you reached that conclusion. My point was that Katana's burst damage from BU is an advantage, and that Kinetic Melee's charge-up mechanism is a disadvantage.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
Build Up is +100%, ED cap is +95%. Golden Dragonfly does 142.64 base, 420 under those conditions. Concentrated Strike does 222.72 base, 434 under just the ED Cap. Neither of which is enough to make a meaningful dent in a boss, which if you might recall was your original point of comparison.
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I do not think I would call the charge up mechanism a disadvantage. Calling Build Up's immediate effect an advantage already counts as 1, it seems unfair to then count the same thing as a negative for Power Siphon. Either Build Up has an advantage because it grants its full buff immediately OR Power Siphon has the disadvantage of needing time to build its full buff. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
My point was that Katana's burst damage from BU is an advantage, and that Kinetic Melee's charge-up mechanism is a disadvantage.
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I think I'd say Build Up has the advantage in immediate buff and Power Siphon does not. But I would not then count the way Power Siphon works as a negative, but rather as just lacking that particular advantage Build Up has.
OTOH, in game play, I tend to get very close to actually having the Build Up advantage as well as my Power Siphon advantages. Since I use Power Siphon in one spawn I can often carry over much of the buff into another spawn and have a large buff right at the start of a fight, just like Build Up would allow (but that may be counting the longer duration advantage of Power Siphon twice
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Fair enough, I'd rather emphasize Power Siphon's Charge-Up as a disadvantage considering it is a rather unique mechanic, though it shares similarities with DB's Blinding Feint and Claws' Follow Up.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I do not think I would call the charge up mechanism a disadvantage. Calling Build Up's immediate effect an advantage already counts as 1, it seems unfair to then count the same thing as a negative for Power Siphon. Either Build Up has an advantage because it grants its full buff immediately OR Power Siphon has the disadvantage of needing time to build its full buff.
I think I'd say Build Up has the advantage in immediate buff and Power Siphon does not. But I would not then count the way Power Siphon works as a negative, but rather as just lacking that particular advantage Build Up has. OTOH, in game play, I tend to get very close to actually having the Build Up advantage as well as my Power Siphon advantages. Since I use Power Siphon in one spawn I can often carry over much of the buff into another spawn and have a large buff right at the start of a fight, just like Build Up would allow (but that may be counting the longer duration advantage of Power Siphon twice ). |
Bear in mind though I don't consider Katana or any other powerset superior to KM. I stated earlier in the thread the other advantages and disadvantages of the DPS heavy scrapper powersets, and I haven't even scratched the surface of comparison.
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Over the lifespan of a boss? Unlikely. Power Siphon's damage buff averages out starting from zero to be about equal to Build Up in six attacks. In other words, Build Up's front loading is only an advantage of any kind in situations where you can defeat that situation in six attacks or less.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
You didn't take crits into account. Also, my point wasn't that GD could 1-shot a boss, I don't know how you reached that conclusion. My point was that Katana's burst damage from BU is an advantage, and that Kinetic Melee's charge-up mechanism is a disadvantage.
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So if you're talking about attacking one boss, and only one boss, you have to defeat it in six attacks. Averaging, at level 50, about 430 points of damage per attack while buffed by BU. That's not likely outside of situations where you aren't highly damage buffed by other sources.
And that's the specific situation of attacking and defeating a single boss at even con with no resistances. Averaging out over an entire spawn, it just keeps getting worse for Build Up. Except, as previously noted, in situations where Build Up's tohit buff becomes significant.
The front loading advantage of BU would make sense if we were talking about my Energy Blaster, that has low defenses and is governed by DPnow. But on a scrapper, that advantage largely vanishes in favor of faster kill speed over all rather than short term kill speed. Because if you're fighting spawns where you need that frontloading, you simply won't have it every spawn. So you're not likely to be running missions where you need that frontloading often. But faster overall kill speed is always advantageous.
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Six attacks from KM, that comes down to what? 9 seconds with one use of CS? that's about 290 DPS over 9 seconds to kill an even-con level 50 boss. I have a Katana/SR build that does 330 burst DPS with BU, and a little less than 300 stable DPS(which very few KM builds reach), before taking Reactive into consideration. But those circumstances of having top builds are indeed unlikely.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Over the lifespan of a boss? Unlikely. Power Siphon's damage buff averages out starting from zero to be about equal to Build Up in six attacks. In other words, Build Up's front loading is only an advantage of any kind in situations where you can defeat that situation in six attacks or less.
So if you're talking about attacking one boss, and only one boss, you have to defeat it in six attacks. Averaging, at level 50, about 430 points of damage per attack while buffed by BU. That's not likely outside of situations where you aren't highly damage buffed by other sources. And that's the specific situation of attacking and defeating a single boss at even con with no resistances. Averaging out over an entire spawn, it just keeps getting worse for Build Up. Except, as previously noted, in situations where Build Up's tohit buff becomes significant. The front loading advantage of BU would make sense if we were talking about my Energy Blaster, that has low defenses and is governed by DPnow. But on a scrapper, that advantage largely vanishes in favor of faster kill speed over all rather than short term kill speed. Because if you're fighting spawns where you need that frontloading, you simply won't have it every spawn. So you're not likely to be running missions where you need that frontloading often. But faster overall kill speed is always advantageous. |
I guess my argument would be that it's not uncommon to face -1 bosses nowadays due to the incarnate system.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Is that with or without lore pets, and pre- or post-reactive fix?
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Also, it was pre-reactive Nerf. I will run it again in the next day or so to see what it is now.
Edit: Just ran it again with Viki, and it actually shaved my time down. to 2min 38 sec. I will do it w/o Viki again as soon as my kid is not attempting to distract me.
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Have you verified that against a Pylon? The best I've gotten on paper from Katana/Super Reflexes sans incarnate powers was I think 242 sustained DPS. I really don't know where you'd find another 50-60 DPS.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
I have a Katana/SR build that does... a little less than 300 stable DPS(which very few KM builds reach), before taking Reactive into consideration.
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It also needs to be noted that PS with good luck can be up a lot longer than BU, and more often. The instant recharge that CS offers is hard to factor in, because it is not a constant, but it should not take it completely from the equation.
My build is at perma hasten levels, and CS is up a lot. I also stuck a chance for BU proc in PS, it doesn't hit often, but when it does it is very nice.
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Would you mind pming me your build? You've revived my interest in km. Either way, high five on putting another electric armor in one of the top spots. Solidarity and what not |
W/o, I can never keep them alive. :/ Also, it was pre-reactive Nerf. I will run it again in the next day or so to see what it is now. |
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If we're comparing Power Siphon to Build Up, we should compare Kinetic Melee with Power Siphon vs a hypothetical Kinetic Melee with Build Up. Comparing the damage output of Katana with BU vs Kinetic Melee with PS is really comparing Katana to KM as much as comparing BU to PS. KM is a slightly slower set.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Six attacks from KM, that comes down to what? 9 seconds with one use of CS? that's about 290 DPS over 9 seconds to kill an even-con level 50 boss. I have a Katana/SR build that does 330 burst DPS with BU, and a little less than 300 stable DPS(which very few KM builds reach), before taking Reactive into consideration. But those circumstances of having top builds are indeed unlikely.
I guess my argument would be that it's not uncommon to face -1 bosses nowadays due to the incarnate system. |
Going to -1 bosses would reduce the damage to defeat to about 90% of normal, which is significant but that's still about 390 damage per attack average, which is still fairly hefty.
300 DPS is also a lot of DPS even for Katana, and especially for Katana/SR. Even if your build somehow averages 250% damage on all attacks through slotting and something like Musculature, that would be a base scale dps of 1.9 DS/sec. Katana doesn't have any attacks with that much DPA. I'm as puzzled as Werner is at the moment: how did you manage to squeeze that much damage out of a scrapper with no intrinsic damage buffs? That sounds like a very interesting build if you can verify that damage number.
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Done, I am pretty sure I could decrease the time even further if I slotted LF for damage. Also I hopped on beta and tested my times with t4 of both of the pets I am considering switching to for concept. They were Storm Elemental, and Arctic Lights. I was not impressed.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Would you mind pming me your build? You've revived my interest in km. Either way, high five on putting another electric armor in one of the top spots. Solidarity and what not
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In the run with Storm, I had a VERY lucky streak, and PS was up over half of the time. I was still over 3min.
With Lights I didn't have the streak with PS, and was still under the 3min mark. If I were willing to actually attempt to use the recommended attack chain I may be able to lower it even more.
I would say in 78 months KM/ElecA is the most fun I have had in this game.
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If you franken-slot Mako's with Undermined Defenses and added assualt, RedFort, both -res procs, oblits, and slot a ranged with the dam from Apoc. Muscular to make up for slotting with Undermined Defences, Gaussian (or franken-slot adjusted targeting and encouraged acc)... I think you could get some good numbers just on that. (assuming that this isnt /fire or other set with auras and etc, and we're just talking set bonuses)
I agree with the OP. I looked at the set a lot with /SR, after a while some of the "internal constraints" of it put me off because performance that I wanted wasnt there. PS not stacking and longish animations, etc. Performance from a damage/time stand-point really was difficult to push despite really trying.
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Yea, on the kat side track I'm looking at 283.5 sustained DPS and that is WITH /elec's LF with a proc on a build I put together. If someone can show me >300DPS on a Kat I'm sold right here right now
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I've got one somewhere,... just have to figure out which computer. From what I am seeing of Zyphoid's build though, and some calculations of another, KM can destroy that. I also know firsthand that DB can quickly overshoot it.
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Originally Posted by doyler_
Yea, on the kat side track I'm looking at 283.5 sustained DPS and that is WITH /elec's LF with a proc on a build I put together. If someone can show me >300DPS on a Kat I'm sold right here right now
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That's my big problem, I'm trying to find a BIG GUN ST set and I can't find the one for me. Kat is nice, but i'm getting 283 completely pimped with procs and auras...don't know much about KM or even DB recently as I haven't done the math (or even dark assuming no saturation...)
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
I've got one somewhere,... just have to figure out which computer. From what I am seeing of Zyphoid's build though, and some calculations of another, KM can destroy that. I also know firsthand that DB can quickly overshoot it.
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Well, if you only want ST DPS, it looks to me that it is a toss up between KM and DB. The difference really would be that KM debuffs enemy damage and DB has much better AoE.
You can go Kat for almost as much ST dps plus the option of DA for defense, but as soon as you use DA your dps will drop like a stone; it does not have the -dam of KM nor as good AoE as DB.
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Yea, was leaning heavily towards those two, but dark seems to be close / better even with one target plus it has the heal so I could go barrier for survivability...but I just don't know >_<
Though out of the 3 DB gets the most procs for sure...
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?? Dark is definitely not better with one target. We will have to wait and see if the fully saturated dm/sd's can retake top scrapper dps once everyone has their incarnate stuff settled.
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Originally Posted by doyler_
Yea, was leaning heavily towards those two, but dark seems to be close / better even with one target...
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=132369
sorry, brute dark*
though actually I calculated lightning field wrong, so my kat/elec build is up to 306.69 on paper and the db/elec is only at 280.35 (assuming perma double BF...)
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It's a build, so no pylon run, and my DPS calculations likely differ from yours. Here's the build, maybe you can get better numbers from it: |
Originally Posted by Werner
Have you verified that against a Pylon? The best I've gotten on paper from Katana/Super Reflexes sans incarnate powers was I think 242 sustained DPS. I really don't know where you'd find another 50-60 DPS.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If we're comparing Power Siphon to Build Up, we should compare Kinetic Melee with Power Siphon vs a hypothetical Kinetic Melee with Build Up. Comparing the damage output of Katana with BU vs Kinetic Melee with PS is really comparing Katana to KM as much as comparing BU to PS. KM is a slightly slower set.
Going to -1 bosses would reduce the damage to defeat to about 90% of normal, which is significant but that's still about 390 damage per attack average, which is still fairly hefty. 300 DPS is also a lot of DPS even for Katana, and especially for Katana/SR. Even if your build somehow averages 250% damage on all attacks through slotting and something like Musculature, that would be a base scale dps of 1.9 DS/sec. Katana doesn't have any attacks with that much DPA. I'm as puzzled as Werner is at the moment: how did you manage to squeeze that much damage out of a scrapper with no intrinsic damage buffs? That sounds like a very interesting build if you can verify that damage number. |
My point was that the time it takes to reach KM's DPS is a disadvantage, as other sets can peak their DPS much sooner.
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That's Brute dark with full saturation and gloom. Against a single target, in that list it drops to 195, and the scrap version to 169, though none of that takes into account IOs which can significantly change the rankings, partially because Dark can't slot the -res procs.
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Originally Posted by doyler_
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=132369
sorry, brute dark* though actually I calculated lightning field wrong, so my kat/elec build is up to 306.69 on paper and the db/elec is only at 280.35 (assuming perma double BF...) |
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A Katana scrapper can hit BU and immediately fire off its best DPA attack, Golden Dragonfly, with maximum buffage. If a Kinetic Melee scrapper wants to immediately fire off its best DPA attack, Concentrated Strike, it will take longer to charge up damage from Power Siphon and it will not benefit from damage buffs.
If the KM scrapper wants to set up a 100% damage buff for CS, it'll need to attack for at least 3-4 seconds and then wait for Concentrated Strike's animation to end. By that time, a Katana user will be firing off his second GD. In AV/GM fights, that doesn't matter. But if we're talking about getting rid of bosses in a team environment, it makes a big difference, at least for the first boss(and two bosses are a much bigger threat than one).
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