Quote:
I agree that Hasten is a nice power, but keep this in mind.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Hasten, all powers bring flexibility, the more times their on offer the better and so it like ketchup to me. Perma hoarfrost is like perma +hp
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While hasten is good for recharge, it recharges all your powers (except incarnate). Perma Hoarfrost? Yes, if you are waiting for Hoar to be available so that you can click it ASA it is up. Same with all other clicky powers. That is why I forego Hasten in lieu of EA for my Autofire. Perma +DEF and END recovery.
Hasten is good, but not good enough for me. Believe it or not, most comments from people that see me run goes to the effect of "MY GOD! You use a lot of END! How do you not run out?"
My secret is Autofire EA.
Quote:
You are correct, on so many different levels. My attack chain is perfectly balanced for my recovery.|
Originally Posted by Infini
Edit: Saw your quoted 19.5 billion inf cost. I only physically spent about 3 billion on mine. The Luck of the Gambler: +rech IOs I got from A-merits and a friend that owed me a favor. Some of the others I lucked out in drops or ticket farming.
With the advent of IOs and other changes in the game, Ice/Ice can mitigate damage AND dish it out just as well. Not as well as some other sets, mind you, but heaps and bounds more than what Ice Melee was capable of before its changes. I leveled my Icer to 50 just before the changes to FA and it was a godsend. As far as damage mitigation goes, you can last and last all you want, but on a defense base set the dice will go sour on you at some point the longer you take to finish the fight. Having some semblance of an attack chain helps with this. It doesn't need to be super strong, just efficient when pointed in the right direction. As to the discussion about your building techniques, no one is arguing that there is only 'one' way to build a tank. There are numerous build styles for any and all characters. I think they are just baffled at your unorthodox choices (I feel the same). You spent all that influence or grinding away to get all of those PvP IOs for what reason? I can get behind being heavily dependent on EA for your defense needs, yet you don't build up recharge bonuses to get the most out of it. You're regen level is where I like to have mine, but your HP is severely lacking. There's just a better way to build an ice tank that can tank 99% of the game's content and cost a fraction of your posted build. I mean, if you enjoy your tanks, then more power to you. Myself and others here are merely trying to understand the quirks of your build style. |
BTW, at 3279.5 HP How am I lacking on HP? Recharging is built into my Sets and Set Bonuese so that I get the full DEF bonus for the baddies around me before the previous ones expire.
Quote:
Or you could just use a bind and look at the icon out the corner of your eye. Hasten also means EA is up more often, which means more endurance and defense. Double stacked EA gets me up to ~57% defense. That's perma double stacked EA, to boot. There's also the extra effect of sapping mobs, which is more potential mitigation. |
Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
I agree that Hasten is a nice power, but keep this in mind.
While hasten is good for recharge, it recharges all your powers (except incarnate). Perma Hoarfrost? Yes, if you are waiting for Hoar to be available so that you can click it ASA it is up. Same with all other clicky powers. That is why I forego Hasten in lieu of EA for my Autofire. Perma +DEF and END recovery. Hasten is good, but not good enough for me. Believe it or not, most comments from people that see me run goes to the effect of "MY GOD! You use a lot of END! How do you not run out?" My secret is Autofire EA. |
Just because a power is recharged, doesn't mean you need to use it (in regards to Hoarfrost).
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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You have that HP potentially every 2 out of 4 minutes. Those other 2 minutes you have 2530hp. I, on the other hand, have 2855hp all the time with the potential of being at the hp cap of 3534hp ALSO all the time as my Hoarfrost is perma, but I use it as a heal instead of keeping it on all the time. That's ~300hp difference.
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Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
You are correct, on so many different levels. My attack chain is perfectly balanced for my recovery.
BTW, at 3279.5 HP How am I lacking on HP? Recharging is built into my Sets and Set Bonuese so that I get the full DEF bonus for the baddies around me before the previous ones expire. |
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
Quote:
I checked out your build side by side with mine. While most of the stats are comparable, there are some major differences -|
Originally Posted by Infini
My apologies as I'm not trying to attack you or anything, just to make you realize that you have an extremely expensive build that is outclassed by my moderately expensive build when normally efficiency increases as the budget increases.
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First - You did softcap yours, but you alsoovercapped meaning that the amout you went over is useless for everything except incarnate trials.
Second - Your weakest DEF damge types are Fire/Cold def. Same with mine, but I am a good 8% higher than you. The trade off is you also have less resistance to fire my 13%.
Third - Your Max HP is higher than mine at 170.7% vs 155%, but that is the trade off for DEF and RES.
Fourth - MY Regen and Recovery is higher than your despite the difference in the way Hoarfrost is slotted.
Fifth - I run faster, Jump faster, jump higher, and I fly.
Sixth - I have PVE and PVP stealth whereas you do not.
Seventh - Haste. Because you have Hasten you are faster at recharging. Yours is +152.5% where mine is +40%. I will let you know that I do make up difference if I slot my incarnate power to help though I do not know by how much.
Eigth - Damage. You sit at +5% where I sit at +176.5%. Huge difference.
Ninth - To Hit buff. You +6% vs me with +68.3%
Tenth - The Status protections and resistances. I have better Hold/Stun/Sleep Protection, KB Protection and Stun Res., Sleep Res, Confuse Res, and Fear Res. Additionally, I have Hold protection whereas you do not. On the other hand, your Immob Res is higher.
So in all, where your build is cheaper and more conducive to most peoples needs, mine is designed from the ground up for me. My build is not for the causal player nor should most experienced players attempt it. My build is expensive, it requires a learning curve, and it requires an open mind.
I also am constantly looking to how I can make it better. I am taking several suggestions to heart and plan on making a couple of changes.
No disrespect, but I disagree that your build "outclasses" mine.
P.S. - Check your build. Some of your set bonuses are not applying because you have hit the limit. Mine has no such problems.
Infini, one more thing. Performance wise, you stated you hit ~57% with EA double stacking. In fact, you hit it with a single instance with 10 foes around you while you have Frozen Armor and Glacial Armor on. Althought you can double stack, so can I. So for the purpose of comparison, I will eliminate the doublestacking and all other outside influences on EA withine each build.
Side by side, EA only comparison (single application, 10 baddies)...
You get a tad bit more DEF than I (17% vs 18.5% s/l and 17.7% vs 17.3% for NRG/negNRG), but I get 25.8% for fire/cold vs 13.5% for the same with you.
Additionally, I get Resistances to each damage type ranging from 3% to 11.8% while you get 1.3% to 2.8% on 4 damage types and 4 damage types have 0%.
Set bonuses for just EA gives me a distinct advantage in Status prot and resistances, damage buff, HP and Regeneration. You at least get a LoTG +rech.
I do readily admit that the differences are mainly due to the cost of the build.
Quote:
Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong on this point. |
Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
EDIT: BTW, It does matter where you put the Steadfast Psi Res/+Def. In order for it to be alsways on, you need it in a power that is always on. Hoarfrost is clicky, Tough is a toggle, but permafrost is Always on.
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Here's the description from Paragonwiki:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Steadfas...stance/Defense
As you can see, it says that the Steadfast +Def is a global enhancement, and that:
This enhancement functions as a set bonus and is always on, even if in a toggle that is turned off or even if the power is greyed out because of exemplaring.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
You're right on that. Sorry about that confusion.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong on this point.
Here's the description from Paragonwiki: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Steadfas...stance/Defense As you can see, it says that the Steadfast +Def is a global enhancement, and that: This enhancement functions as a set bonus and is always on, even if in a toggle that is turned off or even if the power is greyed out because of exemplaring. |
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One of the reasons I have Haste is EA. I agree with you about endurance I can see how staminaless Icetanks managed. I'd autofire haste but not EA, one thing I'd rather do is hit EA myself so as to make sure it doesn't fire off when I least want it to, ie simply traveling to a mission or between enemy groups. Much better to use it with mobs next to ya.
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Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
That is why I forego Hasten in lieu of EA for my Autofire. Perma +DEF and END recovery.
Hasten is good, but not good enough for me. Believe it or not, most comments from people that see me run goes to the effect of "MY GOD! You use a lot of END! How do you not run out?" My secret is Autofire EA. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I checked mids out as far as optimal slotting for the boxing/tough/weave and with hasten while droping acrobatics/super jump/combat leaping and also am looking at having block of ice with the slotting of Chilblain. So far, the numbers look comprable and not to off as far as difference between the two with the slight edge being still to my existing build. I am going to continue to look at this.
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Taking this build I've analyzed it against mine which is about 20 times cheaper. For 20 times more expensive I'd expect an I win button. Your build truly wins in the +damage compartment. Shield walls are PvP IOs I believe so it should.|
Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
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Going through it here is what I came up with conclusion wise as to what differences I would make:
I would hasten, you would have more hp over time, more end rec over time, more defense over time, your attack rate is better and you will have more build up over time, your regen rate would then be substantially better over time and all thate toxic resistance would actually come out on top compared to my build because atm they don't. Because I use Hoarfrost twice as often my toxic resist over time equals yours.
So this build would be better with haste.
I would try to slot all attacks well, where there is smidgens of tiny little bonuses like 4% regen I would ask myself how much is that in real terms, note that its a 1/3 of a single hp and breath a sigh of relief that 2 slots can come out of combat jump to do more in an attack than I would recieve in hp. There is no point being so far past the flight speed cap thats another slot free to go into an attack, each one of these newly freed slots that were given you nothing or something less than a hitpoint per sec in regen build an attack which can give you something more worth it, it could be additional defense.
Lots of attack come as Smash or Lethal, when it comes to Fire there is often Lethal, if lethal misses then the fire misses, same with cold, same with energy and smash etc therefore some bonuses like what you're getting by slotting up Permafrost with Aegis over the extent of the game may not be that helpful especially in terms of minor additional fire res, but in an attack they can be and the same bonuses might be gained anyway.
All I am saying is that if I spent that much I would of done things differently and whilst you have such a good build which may do for the content there would be something in my mind that would try to make it better. However no one writes the rule book that other people may follow so if you've found something that you think is perfect then fair play and good luck to ya, I'm still looking for perfect.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Here is the modified build I am looking at.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Taking this build I've analyzed it against mine which is about 20 times cheaper. For 20 times more expensive I'd expect an I win button. Your build truly wins in the +damage compartment. Shield walls are PvP IOs I believe so it should.
Going through it here is what I came up with conclusion wise as to what differences I would make: I would hasten, you would have more hp over time, more end rec over time, more defense over time, your attack rate is better and you will have more build up over time, your regen rate would then be substantially better over time and all thate toxic resistance would actually come out on top compared to my build because atm they don't. Because I use Hoarfrost twice as often my toxic resist over time equals yours. So this build would be better with haste. I would try to slot all attacks well, where there is smidgens of tiny little bonuses like 4% regen I would ask myself how much is that in real terms, note that its a 1/3 of a single hp and breath a sigh of relief that 2 slots can come out of combat jump to do more in an attack than I would recieve in hp. There is no point being so far past the flight speed cap thats another slot free to go into an attack, each one of these newly freed slots that were given you nothing or something less than a hitpoint per sec in regen build an attack which can give you something more worth it, it could be additional defense. Lots of attack come as Smash or Lethal, when it comes to Fire there is often Lethal, if lethal misses then the fire misses, same with cold, same with energy and smash etc therefore some bonuses like what you're getting by slotting up Permafrost with Aegis over the extent of the game may not be that helpful especially in terms of minor additional fire res, but in an attack they can be and the same bonuses might be gained anyway. All I am saying is that if I spent that much I would of done things differently and whilst you have such a good build which may do for the content there would be something in my mind that would try to make it better. However no one writes the rule book that other people may follow so if you've found something that you think is perfect then fair play and good luck to ya, I'm still looking for perfect. |
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From that I've freed up 6 slots that I thought could be better spent and also could be put anywhere else ya like.
Frozen fists is the bruise power or weave could have more shield walls or Taunt could be slotted more.
Bedtime for me now NN.
Edit: helps to post
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
My rebuttal - |
Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
I checked out your build side by side with mine. While most of the stats are comparable, there are some major differences -
First - You did softcap yours, but you alsoovercapped meaning that the amout you went over is useless for everything except incarnate trials. Second - Your weakest DEF damge types are Fire/Cold def. Same with mine, but I am a good 8% higher than you. The trade off is you also have less resistance to fire my 13%. Third - Your Max HP is higher than mine at 170.7% vs 155%, but that is the trade off for DEF and RES. Fourth - MY Regen and Recovery is higher than your despite the difference in the way Hoarfrost is slotted. Fifth - I run faster, Jump faster, jump higher, and I fly. Sixth - I have PVE and PVP stealth whereas you do not. Seventh - Haste. Because you have Hasten you are faster at recharging. Yours is +152.5% where mine is +40%. I will let you know that I do make up difference if I slot my incarnate power to help though I do not know by how much. Eigth - Damage. You sit at +5% where I sit at +176.5%. Huge difference. Ninth - To Hit buff. You +6% vs me with +68.3% Tenth - The Status protections and resistances. I have better Hold/Stun/Sleep Protection, KB Protection and Stun Res., Sleep Res, Confuse Res, and Fear Res. Additionally, I have Hold protection whereas you do not. On the other hand, your Immob Res is higher. So in all, where your build is cheaper and more conducive to most peoples needs, mine is designed from the ground up for me. My build is not for the causal player nor should most experienced players attempt it. My build is expensive, it requires a learning curve, and it requires an open mind. I also am constantly looking to how I can make it better. I am taking several suggestions to heart and plan on making a couple of changes. No disrespect, but I disagree that your build "outclasses" mine. P.S. - Check your build. Some of your set bonuses are not applying because you have hit the limit. Mine has no such problems. |
#1 - My defense numbers are, in fact, for Incarnate content, too. Also, I don't have to rely on EA for defense, which is beneficial when you're, say, stealthing a mission without actually having stealth.
#2 - Two words... Darkest Night. A 16% tohit debuff to everything except AVs, mainly, but that isn't the shiny part of this power when used with Ice Armor. It's the 21% damage debuff that stacks with CE's 14%. That's 35% total in damage debuffs, which applies to ALL attacks instead of having specific resistances. Just for giggles, I also use Void Radial Judgement, which adds another 50% dmg debuff for a time. That's 85% in dmg debuffs! Damage debuffs are one of the few things not resisted by AVs. Just by level modifiers.
#3 - Don't forget accolades. It's actually 188.6% vs 175% with Hoarfrost on. Hoarfrost off is 152.4% vs 135%. May not seems like a whole lot, but my higher HP takes more advantage of our similar regen numbers. Couple that with my 35% damage debuff listed in #2 and I have very decent resistance to everything - even Psi.
#4 - My 275% vs your 279% regen. I'll give you that. Your base recovery is also higher than mine. What you're not taking into consideration is consumption. After that, my net recovery is greater. Not to mention that my EA recharges a bit faster than yours, too.
#5 - I use Ninja/Beast Run and Jetpacks if necessary. Those powers, along with Inherent Fitness, have driven my build style to be anti travel power unless it's SS for stealth or other conceptual reasons. I just don't see the point in them unless you're PvPing.
#6 - Moot. IO stealth is pretty useless on its own. Anyone in PvP that actually plays that way will have some sort of +perc. In PvE you need at least SS to be completely invisible. I'll take my native softcapped defense over IO stealth. I just toggle off CE and Icicles and run like mad through missions I stealth.
#7 - It's a considerable difference. My EA is up in ~17 seconds whereas yours is ~28 seconds - to put things in perspective. I can also utilize Spiritual for my Alpha, but only do so when farming. I prefer Cardiac for normal play.
#8 AND #9 - I'm lumping these two together because they suffer the same issue - your numbers are greatly skewed and I'll tell you why. When you slot a BU proc in Mids, it is always on if you toggle it on. In your BU, you're getting BU's number with the proc's numbers automatically added to it. In order to get a more reasonable view of the effects BU will have on your powers, you have to unslot the proc when you toggle on BU. Also, when comparing your build to mine, you didn't even toggle on BU in my build.
What does it mean? Well, your 176.5% damage buff is actually 96.5% and your 68.3% tohit buff is actually 28.3% (these are with BU on but without the proc). Without build up you have 16.5% +dmg and 0% +tohit. Your +dmg is indeed higher than mine, but by 11.5% instead of the huge difference you claimed and my meager 6% +tohit beats out your 0%. Not your fault - that little quirk in Mids is something lots of folks overlook. That said, if you want to keep the BU procs in the comparison, you should know that I use the Decimation BU proc in my Gloom, which means it will statistically fire off more often than it will in your BU as Gloom recharges faster. On top of that, my BU power recharges considerably faster than yours, making your extra 11.5% +dmg negligible.
#10 - I'll give you the higher mez prot/res numbers but I'll say that they really only matter in PvP.
On your insight to my overage on set bonuses - it is just one bonus, which is a 9% Acc bonus. Not a huge deal, though it kills me because I do try to avoid going over the cap in my builds. This particular one just had to happen, though.
I didn't take offense or disrespect to your post. However, I stand by my claim that my cheaper tank still outclasses yours. I respect your vision of building your tank and it's not like I'm saying it's gimped or anything like that. If it works for you, that's great in my book. Just going by the numbers, though, it under performs in relation to the amount of influence you've invested into it. If I had 20 billion to spend on a build I'd expect it to make everything boringly easy, not just ingame, but it my normal day to day life as I would expect it to become corporeal, too (joking, mind you).
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
Quote:
Infini, not quite sure when this became a pissing match. I am sorry if I offended you. Your build is a good build, don't get me wrong. I just took offense when in the process of showing my build I ended up having to explain every single little detail and then defend my choice on how to play, how much I invest in my own build and even then, I cannot win with some people.|
Originally Posted by Infini
My rebuttal -
#1 - My defense numbers are, in fact, for Incarnate content, too. Also, I don't have to rely on EA for defense, which is beneficial when you're, say, stealthing a mission without actually having stealth. #2 - Two words... Darkest Night. A 16% tohit debuff to everything except AVs, mainly, but that isn't the shiny part of this power when used with Ice Armor. It's the 21% damage debuff that stacks with CE's 14%. That's 35% total in damage debuffs, which applies to ALL attacks instead of having specific resistances. Just for giggles, I also use Void Radial Judgement, which adds another 50% dmg debuff for a time. That's 85% in dmg debuffs! Damage debuffs are one of the few things not resisted by AVs. Just by level modifiers. #3 - Don't forget accolades. It's actually 188.6% vs 175% with Hoarfrost on. Hoarfrost off is 152.4% vs 135%. May not seems like a whole lot, but my higher HP takes more advantage of our similar regen numbers. Couple that with my 35% damage debuff listed in #2 and I have very decent resistance to everything - even Psi. #4 - My 275% vs your 279% regen. I'll give you that. Your base recovery is also higher than mine. What you're not taking into consideration is consumption. After that, my net recovery is greater. Not to mention that my EA recharges a bit faster than yours, too. #5 - I use Ninja/Beast Run and Jetpacks if necessary. Those powers, along with Inherent Fitness, have driven my build style to be anti travel power unless it's SS for stealth or other conceptual reasons. I just don't see the point in them unless you're PvPing. #6 - Moot. IO stealth is pretty useless on its own. Anyone in PvP that actually plays that way will have some sort of +perc. In PvE you need at least SS to be completely invisible. I'll take my native softcapped defense over IO stealth. I just toggle off CE and Icicles and run like mad through missions I stealth. #7 - It's a considerable difference. My EA is up in ~17 seconds whereas yours is ~28 seconds - to put things in perspective. I can also utilize Spiritual for my Alpha, but only do so when farming. I prefer Cardiac for normal play. #8 AND #9 - I'm lumping these two together because they suffer the same issue - your numbers are greatly skewed and I'll tell you why. When you slot a BU proc in Mids, it is always on if you toggle it on. In your BU, you're getting BU's number with the proc's numbers automatically added to it. In order to get a more reasonable view of the effects BU will have on your powers, you have to unslot the proc when you toggle on BU. Also, when comparing your build to mine, you didn't even toggle on BU in my build. What does it mean? Well, your 176.5% damage buff is actually 96.5% and your 68.3% tohit buff is actually 28.3% (these are with BU on but without the proc). Without build up you have 16.5% +dmg and 0% +tohit. Your +dmg is indeed higher than mine, but by 11.5% instead of the huge difference you claimed and my meager 6% +tohit beats out your 0%. Not your fault - that little quirk in Mids is something lots of folks overlook. That said, if you want to keep the BU procs in the comparison, you should know that I use the Decimation BU proc in my Gloom, which means it will statistically fire off more often than it will in your BU as Gloom recharges faster. On top of that, my BU power recharges considerably faster than yours, making your extra 11.5% +dmg negligible. #10 - I'll give you the higher mez prot/res numbers but I'll say that they really only matter in PvP. On your insight to my overage on set bonuses - it is just one bonus, which is a 9% Acc bonus. Not a huge deal, though it kills me because I do try to avoid going over the cap in my builds. This particular one just had to happen, though. I didn't take offense or disrespect to your post. However, I stand by my claim that my cheaper tank still outclasses yours. I respect your vision of building your tank and it's not like I'm saying it's gimped or anything like that. If it works for you, that's great in my book. Just going by the numbers, though, it under performs in relation to the amount of influence you've invested into it. If I had 20 billion to spend on a build I'd expect it to make everything boringly easy, not just ingame, but it my normal day to day life as I would expect it to become corporeal, too (joking, mind you). |
I don't care that your build cost less, or that you get out of it a great deal that I do, or that you have fun with your build. What I do care about is when someone says that I make unorthadox choices and then talk down to me. That is why I got defensive.
I did relook at some numbers and yes, while I did compare most powers side by side, I forgot to unclick BU on mine or click BU on yours. Additionally, I did not have the accolades or incarnate powers turned on on either build because depending on the power, it would greatly skew the numbers and there is no easy way to compare with them turned on.
I did find it humorous that you employ the same tactic for stealthing that I do.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
Infini, not quite sure when this became a pissing match. I am sorry if I offended you. Your build is a good build, don't get me wrong. I just took offense when in the process of showing my build I ended up having to explain every single little detail and then defend my choice on how to play, how much I invest in my own build and even then, I cannot win with some people.
I don't care that your build cost less, or that you get out of it a great deal that I do, or that you have fun with your build. What I do care about is when someone says that I make unorthadox choices and then talk down to me. That is why I got defensive. I did relook at some numbers and yes, while I did compare most powers side by side, I forgot to unclick BU on mine or click BU on yours. Additionally, I did not have the accolades or incarnate powers turned on on either build because depending on the power, it would greatly skew the numbers and there is no easy way to compare with them turned on. I did find it humorous that you employ the same tactic for stealthing that I do. |
Unintentional pissing match, I assure you, as I haven't been offended. You generated a lengthy list which I felt needed a reply, however. I didn't mean to offend you and my apologies for that. If your tank works great ingame, then that's awesome. I was making observations solely on the numbers from Mids. Kind of hard to base it on gameplay since we've never teamed together. I am rather impressed that you created such an expensive build. The time and influence invested is pretty cool, in my book. Shows that you really enjoy the character. When I actually sit down to play I'm a bit more than a casual player but I've never invested so much in a single character. Time, certainly, but not influence.
Anyways, sorry for all that. And your comment on us stealthing in the same manner is pretty funny. I've been on teams where everyone's trying to figure out who's going to stealth to the end of a mish to use AtT and by the time they figure it out I'm already at the end lol.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
Quote:
I did like some of the suggested changes and accepted a few. Some, I left alone.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
From that I've freed up 6 slots that I thought could be better spent and also could be put anywhere else ya like.
Frozen fists is the bruise power or weave could have more shield walls or Taunt could be slotted more. Bedtime for me now NN. Edit: helps to post |
This modified version seems very nice. Your opinion?
Code:
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Quote:
My protector Santa is the only I one I have invested like this into. Check out the new data chunk I posted above and see if you like that, I think it one ups my previous build.|
Originally Posted by Infini
Unintentional pissing match, I assure you, as I haven't been offended. You generated a lengthy list which I felt needed a reply, however. I didn't mean to offend you and my apologies for that. If your tank works great ingame, then that's awesome. I was making observations solely on the numbers from Mids. Kind of hard to base it on gameplay since we've never teamed together. I am rather impressed that you created such an expensive build. The time and influence invested is pretty cool, in my book. Shows that you really enjoy the character. When I actually sit down to play I'm a bit more than a casual player but I've never invested so much in a single character. Time, certainly, but not influence.
Anyways, sorry for all that. And your comment on us stealthing in the same manner is pretty funny. I've been on teams where everyone's trying to figure out who's going to stealth to the end of a mish to use AtT and by the time they figure it out I'm already at the end lol. |
BTW, due to the incarnate powers, I find myself with autofire on Barrier nowadays. I have a 1-2 second downtime.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infini
Anyways, sorry for all that. And your comment on us stealthing in the same manner is pretty funny. I've been on teams where everyone's trying to figure out who's going to stealth to the end of a mish to use AtT and by the time they figure it out I'm already at the end lol.
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Real quick on this... have you ever just stealthed and had people ask for a TP and you simply say "I got this."?
Crumbs Santa Laws I'd be exhausted with the amount of times you have returned to this thread in a day. It like me to forget about a thread for a time and then sum up in one post as much as I can days later.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Depending on the mission, yes. All the time. I get scrapper lock on my Icer - formerly known as Winter Dragoon - now known as Fimboolvetr (the harsh winter before Ragnarok in Norse lore). When I team with friends or folks from my global channels, I get much praise. PuGs hate me, though, because of the scrapper lock. That and my excessive need to herd AVs in multiple AV missions (well just herding in general). Fim only runs at one speed - Badass, which is ironic because of his icy nature.|
Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
Real quick on this... have you ever just stealthed and had people ask for a TP and you simply say "I got this."?
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EDIT: forgot to mention that new build looks good! My following suggestions are merely to taste and won't really affect high level gameplay.
As to your revised build the only thing I have is maybe trying to get frost in earlier (I don't know how much you exemplar). Another minor thing would be the great debate over the validity of GIS (dropped it in favor of IS and haven't looked back). If you wanted to get frost earlier you could swap it with permafrost. The steadfast IO will still work even if you exemp (but only within 3 levels lower than the level of the IO, itself).
Then it looks like you're still mulling over on slotting for frozen fists? This next bit I typed up before I saw your most recent posts. Couple options for Frozen Fists are to use the remaining 5 slots for crushing impacts for another 5% recharge bonus or add 1 Common ACC IO and 4 more damage procs from Impeded Swiftness, Touch of Death, Mako's Bite, and Gladiator's Strike. I used to run it like that (except the pvp proc) and it was pretty nice to see them proc all at the same time - though very rare. If you wanted to boost FF's base damage, too, you could try 2 Nucleus Exposures and 4 procs. Possibly even drop a slot to toss in another slot for Health for the regen tissue unique or spread out all of the slots from FF. It really only needs an ACC to lead off your attack chain with bruising.
The Incarnate powers are quite tasty. I personally went with Rebirth Radial to have 2 heals. It's very handy for some fights. Get hit for 50% of your health - pop Hoarfrost. Get popped again, hit Rebirth and be golden. One or the other is usually recharged by the time I really need it again. I just realized I did a switcheroo on 'hit' and 'pop' in that scenario lol.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
Quote:
Well I never said i got this i just did it as the rest of the team tries to figure out who is going to stealth, btw u mentioned something earlier in the post about teaming up with u? what server do u play on.
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Originally Posted by Santa_Laws
Real quick on this... have you ever just stealthed and had people ask for a TP and you simply say "I got this."?
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Quote:
Mostly protector, but I have a Santa on every server in a various stages of slotting.|
Originally Posted by LSK
Well I never said i got this i just did it as the rest of the team tries to figure out who is going to stealth, btw u mentioned something earlier in the post about teaming up with u? what server do u play on.
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#1 Protector
#2 Union
#3 Guardian
#4 Freedom
#5 Virtue
Santa_Laws,
Though I don't agree at all with your approach, I give you credit for putting your money where your mouth is. Same goes for playing the same set, that many times.
It certainly is different than people posting up dream builds, while still at level 1. 
With the advent of IOs and other changes in the game, Ice/Ice can mitigate damage AND dish it out just as well. Not as well as some other sets, mind you, but heaps and bounds more than what Ice Melee was capable of before its changes. I leveled my Icer to 50 just before the changes to FA and it was a godsend. As far as damage mitigation goes, you can last and last all you want, but on a defense base set the dice will go sour on you at some point the longer you take to finish the fight. Having some semblance of an attack chain helps with this. It doesn't need to be super strong, just efficient when pointed in the right direction.
As to the discussion about your building techniques, no one is arguing that there is only 'one' way to build a tank. There are numerous build styles for any and all characters. I think they are just baffled at your unorthodox choices (I feel the same). You spent all that influence or grinding away to get all of those PvP IOs for what reason? I can get behind being heavily dependent on EA for your defense needs, yet you don't build up recharge bonuses to get the most out of it. You're regen level is where I like to have mine, but your HP is severely lacking.
There's just a better way to build an ice tank that can tank 99% of the game's content and cost a fraction of your posted build. I mean, if you enjoy your tanks, then more power to you. Myself and others here are merely trying to understand the quirks of your build style.
I'm going to post my build (for like the 6th time on this forum) for all to look at. My personal build style when it comes to defense based characters follows 2 simple rules. #1 - softcapping defense. With Ice/Ice, it's really, really easy to do and without relying on EA. #2 - rest of the slotting is focused into a trinity of hp/regen/rech bonuses. Usually you can get all 3 of those in same set. You'll notice in my build that I use no purple sets and no pvp sets (except that -res proc in icicles that I've yet to actually slot) and number-wise it comes out way ahead of your build. My apologies as I'm not trying to attack you or anything, just to make you realize that you have an extremely expensive build that is outclassed by my moderately expensive build when normally efficiency increases as the budget increases.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hoarfrost -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(3), Dct'dW-Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(34)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 2: Ice Sword -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(21)
Level 4: Frost -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Posi-Dmg/Rng(9), Posi-Dam%(21), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(46)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(34), Ksmt-ToHit+(40)
Level 12: Frozen Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(13), LkGmblr-Def(13), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 14: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A), Taunt-I(15)
Level 16: Icicles -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(17), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(17), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), FotG-ResDeb%(37)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(19), LkGmblr-Def(19), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 20: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 22: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), RctvArm-ResDam(23), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(34)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(25), LkGmblr-Def(25), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Membr(27), HO:Membr(27), P'Shift-End%(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(37), P'Shift-EndMod(46)
Level 28: Freezing Touch -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(29), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(29), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(31), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(43)
Level 30: Taunt -- Range-I(A)
Level 32: Hibernate -- Heal-I(A)
Level 35: Build Up -- AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(36), AdjTgt-Rchg(36), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(36), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx(37)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- Oblit-Acc/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg(40), CSndmn-Heal%(46)
Level 41: Gloom -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Decim-Build%(42), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 44: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(45), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(45), DarkWD-Slow%(45)
Level 47: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Permafrost -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(15), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(43), RgnTis-Regen+(48)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(11)
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)