I had to make sure that I didn't miss anything so I looked at Black Dwarf's innate resistance and it shows the same as White Dwarf with base 37.5% resistance to everything except for Psionic. It has the same +HP amount and 15% recovery.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Yes, the numbers are correct. With just a few set bonuses, you can get a few seconds of double-black-dwarf-mire with considerable ease.
And if you take a closer look overall, you'll notice that the peacebringer powers are copies of many other existing powers in the game while the signature Warshade powers have unique effects- you know, picking off dead bodies, creating pets off dead bodies, nuking dead bodies, a drain that adds to your resistance, a powerful hold that... so on.
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While I'm not saying that PBs couldn't use help, I disagree with this part here.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Sublimation VS Drain
The most ridiculous power is Black Dwarf Drain. This power only has 15s recharge? With just one +Heal and 2-3 targets, your Black Dwarf can easily get back in action. Now, this is not the part I have problem with (well, not really), but the Drain power also does the same damage as Mire, which is HIGHER than White Flare's base damage? Are you kidding me?!! |
Yes Dwarf Drain does scale 1 damage, but it actually should be higher based on changes to similar powers: it and Essence Drain are essentially copies of Siphon Life*. Siphon Life got buffed to scale 1.96 damage and the recharge was lowered to 10 seconds while the heal was left at scale 1.0, and when that happened the "copy" powers were left alone. It shouldn't be compared to Sublimation since they aren't even remotely close to the same function - one is a heal, the other is a melee attack.
Personally, I prefer Black Dwarf over White Dwarf solely because of that 3rd single-target attack, since even though it's actually weaker than it should be it's at least there. In any case once I get Eclipse I rarely go into Dwarf unless mezzes are flying around and there's no other protection available (note to self: need to get incarnate powers on Amethyst Wraith beyond just alpha slot).
* - Black Dwarf Drain has scale 1.75 heal instead of 1.0 but Dwarf form gets a hp boost keeping the hp percentage.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Dwarf Mire does not have Dwarf Flare's soft control of knockdown. Also, it used to be a clone of human form Mire, meaning Black Dwarf had virtually no AoE damage potential.
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PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
Siolfir, I asked Castle back when Dark Melee's Siphon Life was overhauled whether the Warshade clones would get the same treatment. The answer was a simple: No.
I also once asked him why Energy Blast: Power Push only did .26 damage versus Energy Assault: Power Push which does 1.64 damage.
The response, it seems to me, explains why the warshade powers weren't altered. He stated that they were different powers. Energy Blast's is a control power. Energy Assault's is a damage power.
The same holds true for the siphon life versus essence drain situation. DM's SL was turned into an attack that had a heal on it. Warshade powers remained heals that do a bit of damage.
Do I agree that they should have been left as is? Of course not. But that appears to be the reasoning behind it.
Be well, people of CoH.
The Dwarves are two different animals (Mechanically and lore wise 
). White Dwarf is more defense oriented. Just look at the powers that differentiate it from Black Dwarf. You've got Sublimation, a much bigger heal that you can fire off anytime regardless of whether there's an enemy to target or not; and Flare, an AoE that provides great soft control along with its damage. That contrasts quite a bit with Black Dwarf Drain, a smaller heal that also does damage; and Mire which has no control effects whatsoever.
I'd never turn down a buff to PBs but saying they underperform in comparison to Warshades is shaky grounds for one because they differ quite a bit from one another. Not saying it'd never happen or even that it's unnecessary but I don't think it's quite fair to hold them up and try to make a statement about one versus the other.
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) You mention the soft control of flare but you should keep in mind that warshades come out on top in the control department too with unchain essence, inky aspect, gravitic emanation, and gravity well... This makes the white dwarf foot stomp look like a joke.
OK, so how to fix this? (Yes, I know, pick your jaw up from the floor, Memphis_bill is actually saying something about PBs needs fixing. Dwarf *has* been a sore point for me for a while.)
Simplest solution (to me, and this is ignoring all other powers in the other forms, etc.) -
- Add an attack to White Dwarf. White Dwarf *is* an attack down - and it's really noticable when subjected to a slow. My suggestion would be to give it something along the same theme as Follow Up. Respectable (equitable) damage, with a +tohit and +damage component. It gets to keep its independant heal because the +tohit/+damage is off a single target versus the Black Dwarf's Mire. And the reliable, self-contained heal is a Peacebringer thing.
Of course, the problem with that is that it's another power needing slots. Which starts into a whole chain of "start form powers with two slots instead of one," among other things.
(I'd also give *both* dwarves the Thermal Protection treatment - add some slow resist, specifically, to the form. With so few attacks on *either,* if you're in a situation where dropping out of form would be bad, slows can be murder.)
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... however, none of these can be used in Dwarf form, which is what the OP is talking about. You can point at gravity well - but I'll point out that Incandescent Strike is *also* a hold. Pulsar's effect also lasts beyond form shift, unlike - say - Inky. And (while we're at it,) there's one other place that a PB comes out ahead. If your WS starts running low on END, you have to drop out of Dwarf. A PB can fire off Conserve Energy ahead of time. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You mention the soft control of flare but you should keep in mind that warshades come out on top in the control department too with unchain essence, inky aspect, gravitic emanation, and gravity well... This makes the white dwarf foot stomp look like a joke.
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(Last but not least, of course, is that PBs aren't meant to be control oriented, so... *shrug* )
True they were talking about dwarf form, but with eclipse warshades are not forced to spend as much time in dwarf in situations that require survivability so they can shift freely when the control powers are up. Unchain essence's effects not only last through form shifts but also do massive damage, and stun much more reliably than pulsar. That's ON TOP of inky aspect...
Whenever my warshade runs low on end, he hits stygian circle which completely fills both his end and HP bars and is up much more often then needed... Eclipse also fills endurance.
This is sort of off topic, though.. I've been working on leveling my peacebringer, sort of unenthusiastically (he's currently level 32) because of all the drawbacks in the design that make me just want to play my warshade. I agree that white dwarf and white nova both need serious buffs, because I couldn't even justify taking them. I'm playing all human-- If the forms don't buff each other, I see no reason to let my toggles drop.
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This is one of those "depending on situation / PB vs WS strength" areas, though. If you're still in the midst of a fair number of enemies, yeah, you can do that. Pop a breakfree to handle mezzes/stuns, hit eclipse, etc. Going at it with a single hard target... not so much. (Also why warshades tended to be overlooked for PVP - PVP tended to play to their weaknesses, where a PB, being entirely self contained, was relying more on their own slotting and shifting where the fight, as opposed to END and the like, demanded.)
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
True they were talking about dwarf form, but with eclipse warshades are not forced to spend as much time in dwarf in situations that require survivability so they can shift freely when the control powers are up. Unchain essence's effects not only last through form shifts but also do massive damage, and stun much more reliably than pulsar. That's ON TOP of inky aspect...
Whenever my warshade runs low on end, he hits stygian circle which completely fills both his end and HP bars and is up much more often then needed... Eclipse also fills endurance. |
Oh I totally agree that warshades lack in the single target department, which is why I decided to make a PB in the first place. I got sick of not being able to play in god mode up against marauder. Still though, from my personal experience and from what I've read on these forums the best PB's can hope to be is adequate... Whereas, in situations with lots of enemies and on the highest of difficulty settings... I have yet to see any powerset combination that can outshine a well played and well built warshade.
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And that's where you'll see some of the differences - both sides (and I hate to say "sides," I run and enjoy both) are going to argue strength and weakness from their ideal position (enemies/settings.) If I feel like dealing with a few harder targets, I pull out my PBs and play through situations that would leave my 'shades wanting. They call to personal preferences. *shrug* |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Oh I totally agree that warshades lack in the single target department, which is why I decided to make a PB in the first place. I got sick of not being able to play in god mode up against marauder. Still though, from my personal experience and from what I've read on these forums the best PB's can hope to be is adequate... Whereas, in situations with lots of enemies and on the highest of difficulty settings... I have yet to see any powerset combination that can outshine a well played and well built warshade.
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Personally, I find it the most fun with a mixed Kheld team. Anything problematic for one side is usually gravy for the other. And when we're not just mixing AT but forms (or lack thereof,) it's a blast.
Or several, usually.
That makes sense to an extent, but I could see the massive knockback in peacebringer attacks irking warshades trying to stack mires/fire off eclipse.
Not really - then again, most khelds are going to have a fair bit of experience behind them, and either wait for the mires, float at an angle/overhead if in Nova, or position themselves to "corral" the knockback.
(Not all, of course... but most seem to.)
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This. If anything this. Slows can pretty much neuter Dwarf and since it's not uncommon to find yourself playing offtank in this form a lot of the Slows are likely to be aimed at you. The Slow resistance in the inherent is nice when it's available but something more permanent is needed.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(I'd also give *both* dwarves the Thermal Protection treatment - add some slow resist, specifically, to the form. With so few attacks on *either,* if you're in a situation where dropping out of form would be bad, slows can be murder.)
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Bill and Boy's exchange over the last few posts is representative of the core debate. On one side (Like Bill, I enjoy both but I've got no problem with the verbiage
) you've got those who say Peacebringers need a buff to keep up with Warshades. On the other there are those who point out the differences between the two ATs depending on the environment/difficulty settings (+Enemies/-Levels = Warshade; -Enemies/+Levels = PB).I'm in the latter camp. I wouldn't mind some small tweaks/buffs to make PBs more efficient (See "fun") but I just don't think any major changes are necessary. The only argument I've heard in favor of such alterations is "Nobody plays PBs because Warshdes are better". I'll admit having used that argument in the past but, in hindsight, it's an extremely subjective and less than compelling position.
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) Base Recharge Times of comparable powers:
- Pool Power Aid Self: 20 seconds
- WS Stygian Circle: 30 seconds
- PB Reform Essence: 60 seconds
Base Recharge Times of comparable powers:
- Pool Power Aid Self: 20 seconds
- WS Black Dwarf Drain: 15 seconds
- PB White Dwarf Sublimation: 60 seconds
Recommendations:
1. Reduce the Base Recharge Times of PB Reform Essence and PB White Dwarf Sublimation from 60 seconds to 30 seconds. It's EASY TO DO ... and it's *FAIR*.
2. Reconfigure PB White Dwarf Sublimation to work more like a "quick turnaround" Essence Boost, instead of an upgunned Reform Essence.
Issue 20 Live PB White Dwarf Sublimation:
- Recharge: 60 seconds
- 468.HP (43.7%) Heal to Self
- Recharge: 30 seconds
- 214.2 HP (20%) HitPoints to Self for 10 seconds Ignores Enhancements & Buffs
- 214.2 HP (20%) HitPoints to Self for 10 seconds
- 428.4 HP (40%) Heal to Self(after 1 seconds)
- 15% Resistance(Toxic) to Self for 10 seconds
If anyone reading this proposal "likes" this proposal, send a PM to either Zwillinger, Beastyle, or Black Scorpion (and preferably not all 3 at the same time) to register your approval (and comments).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Counterargument - Peacebringers have two heals, counting Essence Boost, neither of which requires a target of any sort, and an ongoing END discount in the form of Conserve Energy. These maintain the Peacebringer "self contained" theme. Essence Boost also increases the Peacebringer's maximum HP (and adds a toxic resist component,) which Stygian Circle does not. In fact, there is no power that increases the Warshade's MaxHP. Last but not least, the PB heals heal for a consistent amount - if I heal (say) 200 HP this time, 60 seconds later I will heal 200 HP again. 60 seconds after that, another 200 HP. While a Warshade could heal more, they could heal (again, making up numbers) 400 HP one time, assume something knocked down is dead and not heal at all a second time, and heal for 50 HP the third time. |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Base Recharge Times of comparable powers:
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Compared to the Power Pool aid self, the PB heals are noninterruptable (like most AT-based self-heals.) The interruptable component of Aid Self is what justifies its lower recharge.
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Base Recharge Times of comparable powers:
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Black Dwarf Drain requires a target to heal. White Dwarf Sublimation, again, does not. Black Dwarf Drain has a ToHit check to it. Sublimation doesn't. The place where the White Dwarf comes up short here isn't in the heal, but in the lack of another attack (which the Black dwarf gets, as the power is also an attack.)
Power Pool Aid Self - again, see argument about interrupt. That's aside from the fact you can't use it in either Dwarf form, as I recall.
Besides which a better comparison for the peacebringer heals (especially the dwarf heal) is Reconstruction - all three have .73 second cast times, 60 second recharge and heal for similar amounts. Only functional difference is Regenerations Toxic Resist.
Kuji-In Sha also heals for similar amounts and has a 60 second recharge. It also has a toxic resist, but has a 1 second cast time.
I'd compare the peacebringer heals to either of those two before I compared them to aid self.
EDIT - now if you were to use that comparison as a basis for adding some sort of resistance to the heals, well then....
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They'd have to bump our maxhp cap up higher, and I'm not sure that's as easy a task as changing one number to a higher number. Pretty much we self cap off essence boost and white dwarf.
I'm actually okay with PB's self heal staying the way it is...admittedly that's because I've got enough recharge in my build that its cooldown has went from 60 seconds to a respectable 16 seconds. Having a HUGE heal on a 16 second cooldown is very nice...and White Dwarf Sublimation is a HUGE heal. White dwarf itself really feels similar to fire armor only without the damage potential. Its got good resists, and its heal can be shaved down to around 15-20 seconds, and its a good heal, so if the enemy cant take out more HP in 15-20 seconds than it heals you're fine. Resist from our inherent helps widen that safety window.
I know I've suggested a taunt-aura with a scaling buff/debuff in the past, something to shore up our one missing taunt tool, and provide a little extra defensive oomph. Two birds, one stone. We get another tanking tool, and it should help widen that safety window. Also if its added to the dwarf toggle (which is the logical place to put it) it wouldn't cost us too many slots, and that's always a plus when you're talking Kheld changes.
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I've tried to change back and forth from Tank to Human. Well, one time I killed myself doing that 'cause I had so much aggro on me but as soon as I changed back to Human, I died. Why? Because 1. all your Human resistance toggles are off when you change form 2. it takes like 3-4s to change from Human to Dwarf again. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Counterargument - Peacebringers have two heals, counting Essence Boost, neither of which requires a target of any sort, and an ongoing END discount in the form of Conserve Energy. These maintain the Peacebringer "self contained" theme. Essence Boost also increases the Peacebringer's maximum HP (and adds a toxic resist component,) which Stygian Circle does not.
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I just don't like all those little restrictions on Peacebringer. I rarely use Reform Essence unless I need a heal before another battle.
Essence Boost is good except you can only use it in Human form so I normally only cast it before the fight.
Then again, I am merely comparing White Dwarf VS Black Dwarf. I do like the knockdowns from Flare but White Dwarf's damage potential is so much lower.
I actually forgot to check one thing last night when I compared. Do Black Dwarf Smite and Strike have knockdowns? I thought maybe Black Dwarf doesn't have knockdowns but Mids show that they do. I thought maybe that's one area where White Dwarf shines which is 3 knockdown powers.
White Dwarf's version of single heal is like the weakest version. Same long recharge at 60s and with no additional resistance boost.
I've been doing tips with my White Dwarf and I don't like setting anything higher than +1 because it takes soooooooo long for me to kill a +2 or +3 boss. Sure, I don't die easily but the speed of killing is just so darn slow. I believe Black Dwarf can solo better even with a heal that requires a hit-check. Don't forget that Mire buffs Tohit too and it does aoe damage. I just don't think Peacebringer's ability to heal without a target is that big of an advantage considering the loss of dps from Drain attack and the fact that WS can cast pets that last 240s for even more dps. Photon Seekers is such a s!@#tty power.
Survival doesn't just come from withstanding hits. Survival also counts how long it takes for you to kill the opponents so you stop taking damage, and I believe Black Dwarf, or in general Warshade, has an upper hand and not just by a little... by a lot.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
If they want to maintain the theme that White Dwarf survives better but with much less DPS potential, then add +15% Psionic Resistance in Sublimation. This way White Dwarf survives better with more psionic resistance than Black Dwarf (although doesn't Eclipse give +psionic resistance?).
Or they can simply add +20% damage buff and 20% Slow Resistance with Sublimation for 20s after its use. This way they don't have to invent one more attack like Drain.
It sucks when my White Dwarf gets hit with -recharge debuff. I only have 3 attacks and one being an aoe.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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That was actually what I was thinking - if you really need to change them, add Psi resistance to the heals. Since there isn't a source of Psi resist for PBs - although the +maxhp can be argued as counting - and Eclipse provides resistance to all of the types (that can be resisted) it would fit and would make it more closely approximate the other, similar heals.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
If they want to maintain the theme that White Dwarf survives better but with much less DPS potential, then add +15% Psionic Resistance in Sublimation. This way White Dwarf survives better with more psionic resistance than Black Dwarf (although doesn't Eclipse give +psionic resistance?).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Only if they allow White Dwarf to use +maxhp and get rid of the delay when shifting forms, then sure, I'll consider it balanced. :P|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
That was actually what I was thinking - if you really need to change them, add Psi resistance to the heals. Since there isn't a source of Psi resist for PBs - although the +maxhp can be argued as counting - and Eclipse provides resistance to all of the types (that can be resisted) it would fit and would make it more closely approximate the other, similar heals.
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It's hard to change form back to human to use +maxhp because sometimes I am under so much fire. I would have to run far away (and hopefully I don't have any mez on me, which has happened before!), use it and then spend another 3-4s to change back to Dwarf. All that DPS is lost.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
So I've decided to focus on White Dwarf (since I've never made a Tanker and White Dwarf is "tank" enough for me. I just can't stand the low damage). I find my damage quite low but at least I've got a decent soft-control in Flare.
I got curious. People talk about double Mire in WS. I actually have never really paid attention to WS's numbers as I didn't plan to make one.
Oh my god... is Mids wrong or is Black Dwarf that much better?
This is what I don't understand. Black Dwarf has a Mire that has the same radius as White Flare and even though the recharge is 4s longer, it fuels BOTH Damage and Tohit and its activation time is only 0.73s AND it debuffs recharge by 20%?
Sublimation VS Drain (I have to correct myself. For some reasons I thought Drain is an aoe drain like Soul Drain)
Black Dwarf's version of Drain is better than Siphon Life and it's one more attack and it heals and debuffs.
Please tell me Mids is wrong because I can't figure out how this is balanced for White Dwarf. Sure, White Dwarf has a single heal but it has the standard 60s recharge and it does zero damage and it doesn't even give +toxic resistance like other single heals do, and Black Dwarf can fuel its damage with Mire. Let's just say White Dwarf survives better on paper (by taking damage and healing back) but one thing to keep in mind is that Black Dwarf can fuel its damage so much higher than White and has one more attack. One way to survive better is actually to kill quicker too!
I really don't want to trash Peacebringer that much (sorry been doing that a lot lately. hehe) but the more I play this AT, the more I can't figure out how this AT is balanced against Warshade. WS has two forms that just seem superior. Only Nova form is almost identical except for the debuff types.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.