Blaster Secondaries


Another_Fan

 

Posted

i wanted to make a new toon .
i like blasters ,brutes & doms.
i have a bunch of brutes & doms
Blasters have the fewest secondaries of any AT can we at least port some of the dom sets over to blasters to even em out like thorns an stone its only fair i think . sure i would like MA an some kind of Dark
but at this point ill take any thing new .


 

Posted

We've made more than a few threads that say the same thing. Hopefully we'll get at least one new secondary with the next round of power customization... whenever that is (hopefully the next issue or so).

MA gets my vote, personally.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Be nice if they looked at improving the existing secondaries. Seriously when an at goes from being the most popular on the early part of the game to somewhere around 4th or 5th in the late game, that's telling you there is a problem.


 

Posted

I think it would be nice if they just made double choice to powers instead of making a new secondary. Basically 2 powers to choose from. This would bring life to old toons. It would also allow players to slot Inventions they currently couldn't to allow for a different types of builds. It would also open the ground to making new toons or really have a different spin on a secondary build.


1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

What Grey Pilgrim said. Of course, the reason Blasters have so few secondaries is the same reason Masterminds have so few primaries: the sets are unique. No other Archetype has "Manipulation" sets. True, many of the Manipulation sets use existing powers, but there are always a few totally unique powers within them, and the power sets as a whole have to be created from scratch. Whereas, if you want to give a Defender (for example) something new, the Devs need only tweak the numbers on Fire Blast and/or Thermal Radiation and proliferate them.

Blasters are due for another secondary (and even though I don't use them I think Masterminds could use another primary, but that's off topic). I think we should be top priority on the "ATs due for new powersets" list.

-Preferably, I'd like to see a Rad. Manipulation or Sonic Manipulation (to match their primary counterparts, though Sonic Manipulation is harder to imagine).
-If they decide to port over Dark Blast, I would prefer they do so while also introducing a Darkness Manipulation set.
-A secondary utilizing martial arts is also highly desirable since, for right now, Devices is really the only fitting power set for Natural origin Blasters. And who doesn't like gun-fu?!


@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.

 

Posted

Here is a little thing to think about.

I know everyone who plays blasters would like more secondary choices, and while we might disagree about the form they should take, how would you justify doing it outside of something like going rogue if you were at paragon studios ?


I mean pardon the pun but dual pistols was something of a one shot wonder and as is was used as a carrot to get people to buy going rogue. So how do you come up with devoting more effort to what is essentially a bait and switch kind of AT ?

Edit: TBH at this point and seeing how extremely well equipped blasters handle the new content its very unlikely I will roll another blaster. I have tried and spent tens of billions on the toons and they just aren't there. In the real world range offers a great advantage here its more than marginalized.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Here is a little thing to think about.

I know everyone who plays blasters would like more secondary choices, and while we might disagree about the form they should take, how would you justify doing it outside of something like going rogue if you were at paragon studios ?
Same way as they have been doing it, Powerset Proliferation.


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Posted

At any point between your initial realization that a particular character wasn't meeting one or more of your expectations and your eventual declaration that the entire archetype is useless, Another Fan, did you wonder if perhaps your problem is an internal one?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone_Jack View Post
Same way as they have been doing it, Powerset Proliferation.
Blaster secondaries don't match other powersets. At best they borrow bits and pieces likely to cut down on the cost of creating something for just one AT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
At any point between your initial realization that a particular character wasn't meeting one or more of your expectations and your eventual declaration that the entire archetype is useless, Another Fan, did you wonder if perhaps your problem is an internal one?

A particular ? bump the digit up and add a 0.

And yes I have considered that I might need to lrn2play. But even before the I19 overall boost, I had soloed task forces and pylons with them. Its just an appreciation of where they are lacking.

I have always said that 1-20 blasters are the kings of the game. People talk about brutes being fastest in this range and I will say they aren't playing their blasters right. Right around 20 though the world goes to Hades for blasters and it just keeps heading in that direction. It really was just an aha I was right moment when I saw the devs data dump to kotaku was in alignment with what I had been saying.

Edit: here is a point of comparison for you

My fire/mental blaster likely the best performing blaster I have

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I really would have loved to squeeze aid self in here but it would have gutted the offense and a good portion of the defense.


vs My claws/sr brute.

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For about a tenth the effort I get considerably superior performance.


 

Posted

We have the worst secondaries in the whole game........... ive pretty much just accepted it at this point. 7 years and they are almost all terrible.


Psynder LVL 51 Fire/Fire/Scorpion Blaster
KnightWidow LVL 51 NightWidow
Shiver LVL 50 Ice X3 Dominator
Knight'Shade LVL 47 DP/Dark/NRG Corrupter
Currently Marking Out For: Chris Sabin, Player Dos, Daniel Bryan, Portia Perez, CM Punk

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Blaster secondaries don't match other powersets. At best they borrow bits and pieces likely to cut down on the cost of creating something for just one AT.
Not directly, but look at how they pieced together MM. The same could be done for a number of other power sets, some easier than others of course. Dark, Rad, MA could be added fairly easily compared to creating something completely from scratch. (yes, yes, insert standard code rant )


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psynder13 View Post
We have the worst secondaries in the whole game........... ive pretty much just accepted it at this point. 7 years and they are almost all terrible.
I have to disagree here. I enjoy most all of the secondaries, except Devices and that's because they just don't fit my play style. As a matter of fact, I would love to play a Manip/Manip AT.


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[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone_Jack View Post
Not directly, but look at how they pieced together MM. The same could be done for a number of other power sets, some easier than others of course. Dark, Rad, MA could be added fairly easily compared to creating something completely from scratch. (yes, yes, insert standard code rant )
I just wish they werent so loaded with bad powers. Yes we have like 2-3 great powers in some sets but for every good power there are 3 useless awfully bad ones.

Fire has been improved by leaps and bounds but its still not very good compared to other ATs secondaries. What I wouldnt give to be able to spec into /MM.


Psynder LVL 51 Fire/Fire/Scorpion Blaster
KnightWidow LVL 51 NightWidow
Shiver LVL 50 Ice X3 Dominator
Knight'Shade LVL 47 DP/Dark/NRG Corrupter
Currently Marking Out For: Chris Sabin, Player Dos, Daniel Bryan, Portia Perez, CM Punk

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Blaster secondaries don't match other powersets. At best they borrow bits and pieces likely to cut down on the cost of creating something for just one AT.
I'm not going to argue that blaster secondaries are particularly good, the only ones I can personally stand to play being EM and MM. Even with those I only take the utility powers, slot up the mandatory attack, and forgo the melee and psi aoes. Instead of looking at blasters as half an archetype, I see them as meant to do everything in their power to leverage the hell out of the primary and those utility powers. To that end, blasters in general get more freedom than most combinations in any other AT to pick the pools they want and slot them as fully as they want.
Quote:
It really was just an aha I was right moment when I saw the devs data dump to kotaku was in alignment with what I had been saying.
I don't remember the specifics offhand but didn't that chart show that blasters at level 50 were still in the top five most played ATs? A drop in popularity from number one at low level of course, but the majority of ATs didn't even make the list. As we know from other dev comments, several ATs are in the neighborhood of 1.5% usage. Maybe it varies by server but I rarely see a trial team that doesn't have more than one blaster, and possibly never one that lacks any blasters.
Quote:
Edit: here is a point of comparison for you

My fire/mental blaster likely the best performing blaster I have

I really would have loved to squeeze aid self in here but it would have gutted the offense and a good portion of the defense.


vs My claws/sr brute.

For about a tenth the effort I get considerably superior performance.
Unfortunately I lack mids but I assume the blaster has huge recharge and ranged and/or s/l defense and the brute has an inexpensive softcapping build. I have a lot more level 50 and IOed out scrappers than blasters myself so I know how that can be. For instance, Spin can do 300ish damage every five seconds without even that much recharge while Fireball struggles to keep pace for thrice as much bling. Meanwhile the meleer is not at risk and the blaster occasionally is.

The tradeoff for me is that Spin is basically the sum of the meleer's tricks in practical circumstances, by which I always mean speed TFs. It's a doozy, of course, but here's an example of what I mean from last week's WTF that I ran a hundred freaking times. Full team, +2 level, DP/EM blaster admittedly more incarnated than my KM/FA scrapper. Mission 1: Both characters are equally good at running directly to the end and wiping out the Penelope Yin guards and surrounding spawns. Getting mezzed hardly matters when a single window of opportunity results in a hail of bullets which kills everything and knocks the bosses onto their butts. Mission 2: Whee, the riders. My blaster has no problem taking on the rider spawns solo. Why? Cause famine can't terrorize and drain what isn't standing next to him. My scrapper basically has to sit around for teammates to catch up and then we all bum rush. It works but it is less amusing. Mission 3: Both of them are great at rescuing the poor, trusting hostages. Mission 4: My scrapper can kill a yellow in five seconds, but after that he's basically a cheerleader for the rest of the team. No room in the build for holds, either, as I bypassed an epic to softcap s/l more efficiently. I'm pretty sure that my blaster could solo hami if I could figure out a way to handle the final phase. Mission 5: No difference. Oh, and my blaster has vengeance and resuscitate, while my scrapper only had room for the former.

Blasters are great if you ask me. All you need is extreme damage baked into more than one or two single great powers and the high level game is your oyster. One thing I am starting to come around to is the idea of turning all nukes into crashless nukes. Why should the weapon sets have all the fun?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psynder13 View Post
Fire has been improved by leaps and bounds but its still not very good compared to other ATs secondaries. What I wouldnt give to be able to spec into /MM.
My Fire/Fire Blaster has every /Fire powwr except Blazing Aura and uses them all regularly (even Combustion... the larger radius helps in large spawns). Granted you do need a certain playstyle to really make the most of it though: the AoE Blapper. If you don't stay in melee range a lot /Fire is kind of lacking, but if you're crazy enough to jump right in next to the tank and see how much aggro you can steal from him it's great.


Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
I'm not going to argue that blaster secondaries are particularly good, the only ones I can personally stand to play being EM and MM. Even with those I only take the utility powers, slot up the mandatory attack, and forgo the melee and psi aoes. Instead of looking at blasters as half an archetype, I see them as meant to do everything in their power to leverage the hell out of the primary and those utility powers. To that end, blasters in general get more freedom than most combinations in any other AT to pick the pools they want and slot them as fully as they want.I don't remember the specifics offhand but didn't that chart show that blasters at level 50 were still in the top five most played ATs? A drop in popularity from number one at low level of course, but the majority of ATs didn't even make the list. As we know from other dev comments, several ATs are in the neighborhood of 1.5% usage. Maybe it varies by server but I rarely see a trial team that doesn't have more than one blaster, and possibly never one that lacks any blasters.Unfortunately I lack mids but I assume the blaster has huge recharge and ranged and/or s/l defense and the brute has an inexpensive softcapping build. I have a lot more level 50 and IOed out scrappers than blasters myself so I know how that can be. For instance, Spin can do 300ish damage every five seconds without even that much recharge while Fireball struggles to keep pace for thrice as much bling. Meanwhile the meleer is not at risk and the blaster occasionally is.

The tradeoff for me is that Spin is basically the sum of the meleer's tricks in practical circumstances, by which I always mean speed TFs. It's a doozy, of course, but here's an example of what I mean from last week's WTF that I ran a hundred freaking times. Full team, +2 level, DP/EM blaster admittedly more incarnated than my KM/FA scrapper. Mission 1: Both characters are equally good at running directly to the end and wiping out the Penelope Yin guards and surrounding spawns. Getting mezzed hardly matters when a single window of opportunity results in a hail of bullets which kills everything and knocks the bosses onto their butts. Mission 2: Whee, the riders. My blaster has no problem taking on the rider spawns solo. Why? Cause famine can't terrorize and drain what isn't standing next to him. My scrapper basically has to sit around for teammates to catch up and then we all bum rush. It works but it is less amusing. Mission 3: Both of them are great at rescuing the poor, trusting hostages. Mission 4: My scrapper can kill a yellow in five seconds, but after that he's basically a cheerleader for the rest of the team. No room in the build for holds, either, as I bypassed an epic to softcap s/l more efficiently. I'm pretty sure that my blaster could solo hami if I could figure out a way to handle the final phase. Mission 5: No difference. Oh, and my blaster has vengeance and resuscitate, while my scrapper only had room for the former.

Blasters are great if you ask me. All you need is extreme damage baked into more than one or two single great powers and the high level game is your oyster. One thing I am starting to come around to is the idea of turning all nukes into crashless nukes. Why should the weapon sets have all the fun?

I could go back and forth on this but I doubt either one of us would change the others viewpoint.

But our experiences seem to diverge.

Mission 1 of Lady Grey, that last room is a 4 to 6 break free moment. The spawns are usually doubled and tripled and even mammoth amounts of aoe will not drop them before they can land a mezz on you.

Mission 2: The riders have something for everyone and if they don't the spawns surrounding them do

Mission 3: Getting the hostages killed isn't much of a test for anyone.

Mission 4: Scrappers have soloed weakened hamidon can't recall of ever hearing a blaster do it. Maybe a nice incarnate challenge ? The incarnate abilities do throw the old performance expectations out the window.

Mission 5: The scrapper is in much better position to have the temp power from mission 4 if needed. While I don't have vengeance or resusicitate I do have aid other. Should I offer him as a healer ?

Edit: Agree with you about the crashless nukes but its amazing how many people are vehement about their crashing nukes. Even so, Full Auto needs some love.


 

Posted

I only mention venge and resuscitate because they're fantastic utility powers to have on pug teams. I guess it would also have been worth mentioning that I keep a tray full of phenomenal lucks and whatever big oranges are called on all my 50s. This does not strike me as cheating as any character can easily do this without ever having to buy them on the market. So yeah, are the riders hard? Sure, until you use a couple of the many aces up your sleeve. Blasters also have enough hit points that rebirth is crazy effective on 'em.

You can say that scrappers can also leverage inspirations and incarnate powers, and you would obviously be completely correct. While these things can make anyone unkillable, though, they can't add the same amount of damage to anyone, in my opinion. Sure judgement is amazing for a scrapper but that's once every 90 seconds. Blasters get judgement too, and they should have no qualms dropping it and everything else they've got on anyone who looks at em funny with all the defensive perks they have always had access to, and newly have access to.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psynder13 View Post
I just wish they werent so loaded with bad powers. Yes we have like 2-3 great powers in some sets but for every good power there are 3 useless awfully bad ones.

Fire has been improved by leaps and bounds but its still not very good compared to other ATs secondaries. What I wouldnt give to be able to spec into /MM.
This really depends on your playstyle and your build. The biggest issue for me was learning how to put some of those melee attacks into my attack chain, and leveraging the full capabilities of the powers in my secondary. This was easier to do with my Ice/Ice as the two sets really complimented eachother. The only reason I took my melee attacks out was to put my rains in and fully slot them instead.

My /Fire took a while to really get a feel for and I didn't really get it down until I ran a /Energy that focused almost exclusively on the melee attacks. It was a learning curve at the time and I got a number of people yelling at me, because Blasters were supposed to be ranged only. It was surprising how survivable a Blaster could be in melee, but you did have to be careful, mostly when dealing with AoE mezzers. I've got a DP/MM now that is going to be in melee quite often due to all of the PBAoEs.

That said, I do think it would be nice to see a secondary that focused a bit more on range instead of melee. Would be an interesting change of pace. I'd also like to see Martial Arts as a secondary so...


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[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone_Jack View Post

That said, I do think it would be nice to see a secondary that focused a bit more on range instead of melee. Would be an interesting change of pace. I'd also like to see Martial Arts as a secondary so...
Be really wild to have boost range in a secondary that actually has ranged attacks.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Be really wild to have boost range in a secondary that actually has ranged attacks.
This. energy manip still remains the one secondary that akmost makes sense for blasters IMO. power boost sorta got nerfed to mediocrity, but boost range is just, i dunno, a no brainer power to put in the secondaries. Also, having a knockback power as tier one, to me, is 1000 times more useful then an immob dot power. Stupid knockback punch has saved my can more times then I can count under the "new" defiance. I asked Castle once why they didnt do the same kind of thing for MM, and he replied it would take away from EM uniqueness.

Ha! To me, thats the opposite of what should happen. EM works pretty well, wouldnt you want to spread that around? TK thrust is my favorite MM power. I get good use of other ones, but thats a workhorse for me when i solo, and helps on teams for myself and the occasional butt saving of the defender or troller standing in back by me getting hammered on.

I dunno. I would love to see a dark manip set, but I hope it isnt 6 blaps and a build up and a ST immob.


Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.

May the rawk be with you.

Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldagore View Post
I dunno. I would love to see a dark manip set, but I hope it isnt 6 blaps and a build up and a ST immob.
More likely 5 blaps, a ST fear, a Sould Drain style build up, and a ST immobilize.


Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
I have always said that 1-20 blasters are the kings of the game. People talk about brutes being fastest in this range and I will say they aren't playing their blasters right.
OT, but I think MM's win the 1-20 game. Probably 1-50, too.