Help with top end soft-capped Katana/Regeneration
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-05-14 21:39 in Scrappers
The standard damage chain for high recharge katana is GC->SD->GC->GD
Taking the -resistance proc out of gamblers cut is a huge hit to offensive performance, something in the neighborhood of 30 dps.
I would never take the res proc out of GC. If you HAVE to take one out, take the one in GD, that's a smaller performance hit.
Why not slot 2 membranes in DA? The TW version with 2 membranes applies 22.1% def per application of sweep. That only leaves you a paltry 23% def to get from weave, kincoms, sj, and other things.
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Hew in drag baby
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Ah yes, I see the second defense number now. Odd. I'm using a Lysosome, which I think has the same effect, but I only see one defense number for me.|
Originally Posted by Garrott
You are not looking at his build correctly. Since he is using Enzymes there are 2 sets of numbers for defense and not just the single one of ~15%. That is where the difference comes into play. (It is a known thing that the defense debuff of Enzymes counts as defense when used in a defense power.)
Add that and the fact that he is using level 53 HO's. |
But you're right: the difference between a level 50 and a level 53 HO explains some of what I was confused about. Now I'll have to go and look at the market again. I bet those are a lot harder to come by these days...
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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I would take two slots from Fast Healing and Health and use them else where. Getting as close to the soft cap trumps getting more regeneration.|
Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta
heres a build i got on kinetic melee, i know its not the same as your build however as i pointed out in my previous post ( which i hope i wasnt sounding disrespectful) that chasing defense is a long shot to sum it up, id like to show you my build, albeit defense is low, however there may be some ideas on this build you could incorperate into yours and give you a bit of help in doing so.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! KM REGEN: Level 50 Technology Scrapper Primary Power Set: Kinetic Melee Secondary Power Set: Regeneration Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Speed Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Body Blow
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface ------------ Level 2: Swift
Level 1: Sprint
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Your slotting for MoG is different. I'd 3 slot it with two recharge enhancements and a LoTG:7.5.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Slightly, yes. The Werner BBQ build has 64.8% lethal, 66.1% melee, 33.3% ranged and 33% AoE. From that we subtract set bonuses of 7.2% lethal, 8.5% melee, 21.3% ranged and 21% AoE. That gives us 57.6% lethal/melee and 12% ranged/AoE. I would expect the defense enhancement to not be 33%, but 20% like Nerve, which means between 2/3*20% + 1/3*20%*15% = 14.3% and 20% enhancement depending on current slotting. So it would give me 8.2% to 11.5% lethal/melee defense but only 1.7% to 2.4% ranged and AoE. For that I'd be giving up some of the recharge from Spiritual and all of the healing. I doubt it would be a good exchange.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
Assuming that it follows the style of the other Alpha abilities, that's 45% increase to Endurance Modification, and 33% increase to Defense and Recharge Rates while ignoring up to 2/3 of Enhancement Diversification.
I haven't actually done any math with it (I'm not entirely sure how the formula is applied, really) but I'm assuming it will help push you ever so slightly closer to the defense cap. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Well, the situation where it would help survivability is when I'm only single-stacking Divine Avalanche. I'd be single-stacking Divine Avalanche in an attempt to trade survivability for damage. But giving up Achilles' Heel is giving up quite a bit of damage, I suspect a similar amount. If so, then it's really comparing 44% lethal defense to 64% lethal defense in most situations. I'm not currently accounting for the chance of missing with Divine Avalanche, so the numbers would only show a difference when to-hit goes above 69% or so, higher than incarnate. There would be a slight difference at lower to-hit that I'm not accounting for, and a more significant difference when faced with defense debuffs.|
Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta
dunno if this helps but i looked at your build, i swapped the chance to res set in gamblers cut and put it in build up and got 2 rectified reticle which bumps your lethal defense up to 44 odd%.
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Even though it wins on survivability in practice, I don't think it will be by much, and won't be worth giving up the damage to get.
Now, as Linea Alba mentions, you could grab the slot from Golden Dragonfly, as that would have a lesser effect, in particular when I'm doing a double-stack chain. I'm very happy that the build has properly-slotted attacks, though, and still wouldn't want to give it up for the extra survivability.
Eh, let's just see the numeric difference, which I expect to be small. Again, keep in mind that 50% and 64% survivability would be calculated exactly the same even though they'd slightly favor the swap in practice.
Werner BBQ:
75% to hit = 3797Werner BBQ with slot swap:
90% to hit = 2174
75% to hit = 3929
90% to hit = 2217
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Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta
your regen looks a bit starved
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Unfortunately, your slotting doesn't really translate to Katana/Regen since you're chasing typed defense instead of positional defense.|
Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta
heres a build i got on kinetic melee, i know its not the same as your build however as i pointed out in my previous post ( which i hope i wasnt sounding disrespectful) that chasing defense is a long shot to sum it up, id like to show you my build, albeit defense is low, however there may be some ideas on this build you could incorperate into yours and give you a bit of help in doing so.
again i hope this really helps you out and good luck on the build werner. |
I'm not sure what you mean by "chasing defense is a long shot". It's possible you mean what we concluded in the thread, which was that chasing 45% defense wasn't as good as settling for 33% defense and having a lot more of everything else. In that case, I agree with you.
Looking over the set bonuses in comparison, it looks like you gave up 47.5% recharge for 70% regeneration? Are you suggesting that I should do something like that? I'm pretty sure that would result in a drastic drop in the survivability scores because Regeneration is much more dependent on recharge than passive regeneration.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I just noticed this thread, and I don't know if this has been said before. Back on the first page when you contemplated dropping a slot from weave to get your shield wall, sacrificing the softcap to ranged and aoe, have you considered using Enhancement boosters on the IO's you have in your defensive powers? Setting the LotG's to lvl 55 seems to do the trick.
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Membranes offer significantly less defense enhancement than Enzymes. I'm getting 38.3% out of a single Enzyme, while two Membranes would provide 46% total. The extra slot has to come from somewhere. Now, I could drop a slot for two Enzymes. For argument, let's say from Golden Dragonfly. Two level 53 Enzymes raise my lethal defense to 67.5% and my melee defense to 68.8%. As in an earlier post, this will only make a significant difference when to-hit climbs over 69% or defense is severely debuffed. Nice to have, but I think I'd rather keep Golden Dragonfly properly slotted.
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Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Why not slot 2 membranes in DA? The TW version with 2 membranes applies 22.1% def per application of sweep. That only leaves you a paltry 23% def to get from weave, kincoms, sj, and other things.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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The builds have moved on greatly from that point, but yes, enhancement boosters would probably make up the difference. The thread was from before enhancement boosters and before the Resilience buff. At this point, there would need to be some reshuffling of these builds to account for what's become available since then. I think I've personally given up on Katana/Regen for now, though, or at least if I'm going to spend some time in Mids' and rebuilding a character, it would probably be my Katana/Dark, who I think can be more drastically improved.
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Originally Posted by Soul_Fane
I just noticed this thread, and I don't know if this has been said before. Back on the first page when you contemplated dropping a slot from weave to get your shield wall, sacrificing the softcap to ranged and aoe, have you considered using Enhancement boosters on the IO's you have in your defensive powers? Setting the LotG's to lvl 55 seems to do the trick.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Agreed, too many sacrifices and shoe-horns to get high-end performance from a Kat/Self-Empath. This is why my former main is now kitted with SO's... still has T3 Spiritual Core, but only SO's.
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Originally Posted by Werner
...I think I've personally given up on Katana/Regen for now, though...
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I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Originally Posted by Werner
The builds have moved on greatly from that point, but yes, enhancement boosters would probably make up the difference. The thread was from before enhancement boosters and before the Resilience buff. At this point, there would need to be some reshuffling of these builds to account for what's become available since then. I think I've personally given up on Katana/Regen for now, though, or at least if I'm going to spend some time in Mids' and rebuilding a character, it would probably be my Katana/Dark, who I think can be more drastically improved.
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Off Topic:
Given that I had gotten my Spines/DA up to 45% S/L & Melee evenly back before I19, I could only be but greatly amused by seeing you revise the Kat/DA
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
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Originally Posted by Werner
Unfortunately, your slotting doesn't really translate to Katana/Regen since you're chasing typed defense instead of positional defense.
I'm not sure what you mean by "chasing defense is a long shot". It's possible you mean what we concluded in the thread, which was that chasing 45% defense wasn't as good as settling for 33% defense and having a lot more of everything else. In that case, I agree with you. Looking over the set bonuses in comparison, it looks like you gave up 47.5% recharge for 70% regeneration? Are you suggesting that I should do something like that? I'm pretty sure that would result in a drastic drop in the survivability scores because Regeneration is much more dependent on recharge than passive regeneration. |
looking back on my post i can agree 100%
although my knowledge of regen is poor, i only assumed that on a regen chasing the softcap isimpossible.
i know gettin s/l softcap can be achieved.
positional defense, well again my knowledge is pretty much zilch.
my comparison with kinetic melee, although not a very good one, was only to give some perspective and ideas.
my thesis is that without sacrificing alot, you wont achieve alot, but then again to achieve alot some sacrifices need to be made.
the build you had up on the first page as i said looks pretty complete and i dont think you can squeeze anymore out of it even if you spent years on it.
but goodluck though and i hope you find a build you are conmfortable with.
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Thoughts?| Agility Boost: This alpha tree focuses on boosting Endurance Modification, and secondarily boosts Defense and Recharge rate. The radial branch also boosts run speed, fly speed, and jump distance. |
I was initially tempted, because I love endurance, and I like defense and recharge, and I love run speed.
But then I remembered how rare it is for my endurance to be a problem, even when fighting Carnies. And I don't think the alpha slot would boost the defense I get from set bonuses. MoG doesn't need a defense boost. Divine Avalanche would benefit, but that's just one power. The recharge from Agility Boost would be good, but probably not as good as what I get from the Spiritual alpha. I'm already at the run speed cap, so extra run speed won't have any effect. And even if the heal from Alpha isn't very significant, still, I have a lot of heal powers so it's hard to believe I'm not getting some benefit from it.
What do you guys think?
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
I think you did a good job selling why it's not a great replacement for what we have. 
Sadly, I think this is true of most of the new additions. I like what they're doing with the new Reactive-like Interface powers - I think there's a good case for diversifying into some of them, at least on future incarnates. (None are so good I would change out someone who already has a high-end Reactive.) But I'm not very impressed with most of the rest of them, including the Alphas, compared to what I got picking the earlier powers. (The new Judgment doesn't seem bad, just mechanically weird, and thematically, it's not a better match than anything I've done so far.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I think you're right, peterpeter. I'd stick with Spiritual.
I'm OK with that, though. I don't think the new powers should outclass the old ones, just be competitive. I'm sure they are for some builds, just not these.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Thanks for this great thread
I'm actually working on a stj/regen scrapper.
I don't really know how to build this thing, because I encounter some problems with End Management.. (althrough i don't count Mog reco bonus in the equation..).
Anyway, i've come to a build, that can be tweaked i guess.. so any input would be really helpfull.
I can't afford all purples set / pvp sets
So for the head-line :
24-27% def to the 3 pos
+63.8 rech (5sec short of perma hasten).