What would you change for CoH2?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-30 17:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Moment of personal opinion masquerading as fact: CoH works for two basic reasons.
1) The powersets are designed "swim lane" style, which gives you incentive to replay the same archetype many times because you can't reach across lanes. Almost no other game does this.
2) The game is easy enough that all of the combos are basically workable. Specifically, because the game focuses on a "Gauntlet-style" combat where one character is often taking on many enemies, you run into no situation where a character can't compete at a minimum level by defeating at least a few enemies. Again, almost no other game does this.
This game's two super-competitors each dropped the ball on one or the other of these critical elements. Why play a new character up when the one I have already can just spec whatever power I want? Why play when I'm just fighting 1 or 2 enemies at a time and I can't work up the strength to even face one of them?
"Power Trees," in particular, tend to backfire. Their intent is to allow players to branch out and get a unique level of customization. Their result is, inevitably, "build specs" in which 2 or 3 optimal builds come to dominate. At that point, they might as well have been powerset swimlanes, as those would be much easier to balance if they were.
One other request from a "story" standpoint: no weird timeline jumping "story arcs" or "epic quests" that couldn't conceivably happen to more than one character or happen more than once. Pretty much all of our content (and almost every MMO out there) does this. To me, it defeats its own purpose and makes the game less immersive rather than more. To me it feels lifted out of a single player game, has no bearing on anything I would choose to roleplay, and ends up forcing me to either skip the text entirely or explain away such things as people who are already incarnates doing raids that turn them into incarnates.
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I think the problem with power trees honestly is that the more complex you make a system, the more likely it is the power designers will just throw things on the wall to see what sticks.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
"Power Trees," in particular, tend to backfire. Their intent is to allow players to branch out and get a unique level of customization. Their result is, inevitably, "build specs" in which 2 or 3 optimal builds come to dominate. At that point, they might as well have been powerset swimlanes, as those would be much easier to balance if they were.
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But on a more technical level, we do have power trees in CoH: they are just very simple ones. Our tree has three decision points, and they all happen at once: choose archetype, and based on that choice you get a choice of primary set, and based on that choice you get a choice of secondary powerset (usually there's no dependency between primary and secondary, but sometimes there is: cf. Shields). Then we have four or five minor decision points as we pick power pools and ancillary pools.
I have always wondered if the four melee archetypes could have been a single branching tree, and the VEATs implement that very philosophy. In one sense, there are two VEATs, but in another sense there's six: two you start off being, and four you end up being.
There is a balance that has to be reached I believe to make power trees work, and it has to do with the consequences of your decisions. The choice of archetype forever limits some options and enhances others. The choice of powersets does the same thing. You cannot choose ice blast and then later make other choices that get you Fireball. The choice is meaningful because there are consequences, and that's not always true with power trees. As much as people complain about wanting a completely free choice system, I don't think its particularly a good idea. You want to provide as many thematic options as possible, but in terms of what you can and cannot do in-game, every choice - even if that choice is to be a jack of all trades - has to have consequences which make that choice good in some ways, and not as good as other choices in other ways.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think the problem with power trees honestly is that the more complex you make a system, the more likely it is the power designers will just throw things on the wall to see what sticks.
But on a more technical level, we do have power trees in CoH: they are just very simple ones. Our tree has three decision points, and they all happen at once: choose archetype, and based on that choice you get a choice of primary set, and based on that choice you get a choice of secondary powerset (usually there's no dependency between primary and secondary, but sometimes there is: cf. Shields). Then we have four or five minor decision points as we pick power pools and ancillary pools. I have always wondered if the four melee archetypes could have been a single branching tree, and the VEATs implement that very philosophy. In one sense, there are two VEATs, but in another sense there's six: two you start off being, and four you end up being. There is a balance that has to be reached I believe to make power trees work, and it has to do with the consequences of your decisions. The choice of archetype forever limits some options and enhances others. The choice of powersets does the same thing. You cannot choose ice blast and then later make other choices that get you Fireball. The choice is meaningful because there are consequences, and that's not always true with power trees. As much as people complain about wanting a completely free choice system, I don't think its particularly a good idea. You want to provide as many thematic options as possible, but in terms of what you can and cannot do in-game, every choice - even if that choice is to be a jack of all trades - has to have consequences which make that choice good in some ways, and not as good as other choices in other ways. |
I hear you. Personally though I don't think of powersets in CoH as a "tree." I prefer the term "swimlanes" because once you buy into them at character creation, they basically become your sub-archetype. In particular, I like that within your powersets there are no "prerequisite powers" to fiddle with (even if you do have those with the pool powers).
I personally think it is impossible to build a system based on prerequisites where you don't end up forcing a character to swallow a couple of powers he or she doesn't want or have a use for just to reach something better down the line. To an extent that happens with CoH powersets, but not to the degree that true tree systems tend to operate. This is related to my belief that a game where no powers suck is like a perfect circle; achievable in theory but no one has ever seen one.
Nothing against Troy, he is awesome!
But I would love to see, in addition too issue updates, comic book style updates as well. Such as issue 1 villain x does y. Heroes have a set story with set "morality" choices that need to be made, Villains have their story as well. Whichever side has the highest percentage/choices will not only affect the next issue, but the overall universe as well. From various writers.
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I don't personally need a completely free-form system.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As much as people complain about wanting a completely free choice system, I don't think its particularly a good idea. You want to provide as many thematic options as possible, but in terms of what you can and cannot do in-game, every choice - even if that choice is to be a jack of all trades - has to have consequences which make that choice good in some ways, and not as good as other choices in other ways.
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I could be happy with a system much like the existing one, provided some changes were made. Heck, even if they just revamped the current system a little and loosened things up a bit:
-Allow players to choose their primary and secondary sets but give them the freedom to swap their Primary with their Secondary as needed, like builds. In other words, allow people to go between being a "Defender" or "Corrupter" as needed.
-Fold the Epic/Patron Pools into the regular Power Pools. Create more pools and expand the number of powers in the existing ones. A pool of firearm attacks, a pool of melee weapons, etc.
-Give players their damn travel powers at level 1.
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Yes, I was wondering how effectively my Crab could replace a Fire blaster for AoE carnage one time, and from what I can tell it takes the Crab about 10 seconds in animation time to put out the damage that a Blaster can in 5 seconds. Thats not a terrible tradeoff, mind you, given that a Fire blaster is top of the AoE blaster heap, and at the end of my Crabs attack chain everyone ELSES AoEs are doing more AoE damage because of resist debuffs, and the Crab has much better protection, but given how highly this game rewards fast, upfront AoE damage for most content, it is definitely some level of sacrifice.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
VEATs are no exception, they make comparable sacrifices. Among other things, VEATs sacrifice modifiers to get some additional diversity. Lower damage modifiers and lower health for one. Special design rules that moderate DPA for another.
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In addition to having a new game engine, there are some things that have always bothered me with the CoH game design:
CoH is one of the only MMORPGs I've played where a character gets noticeably weaker as they increase in level, relative to enemy scaling, during the early game period (1-12). Then there is a power bump with DOs (or low-level IOs, whatever you use), which proceeds to wear down -again- until you reach the coveted SO tier. At this point, or shortly thereafter in early 30's, character performance just kind of plateaus.
The entire enhancement system needs cleaning. It's a hodgepodge of legacy stuff that reflects how the original team envisioned the game would play out, even when it became clear that it wasn't necessarily good design. With an ~8% bonus, TOs are almost universally disregarded/sold because their tiny bonuses are too ineffectual on powers in the early game.
It's only at the DO range that you can start to see noticeable improvement in powers, and even then I must question whether there is even a need to restrict enhancement power to 16% during this period of a character. The character is young and their powers are still starving for slots. Allowing players to slot 33% enhancements from day one would make it easier to create a smoother power scaling and experience.
The current system is a big reason why, for example, Tankers don't live up to their archetype until they hit the 20's. Until that point, they are essentially scrappers with weaker attacks for all the good their un-slotted, under-enhanced armors do.
Of course none of this is a big deal to people who PL through the early game (sewer groups, anyone?), but then I'd argue that the PL'ing is the result of people looking to avoid dealing with the early-game doldrums. There's just no excuse for "well sure it sucks now, and will continue to suck for a while, but trust me it gets better!" approach to game design.
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I've posted this in another thread. I'm reposting it here for your viewing:
This may have already been said:
- Ideally, one could simply use the new client if they wanted to and still have access to the "old" servers (which would be updated). Servers would be able to handle requests from either the "classic" client or the new (CoX2) client (I understand that this would significantly add to development time because of having to support and test two separate clients).
- If the above is not possible, allow character transitions from CoX to CoX2 if players want them. Some may wish to stay on the "old" servers for a variety of reasons (Their hardware, personal/group relationships, etc.).
- Update the graphics (more similar to DCUO than CO)
- Update the game while allowing the core of the game to be relatively unchanged. Don't go the route of CO or DCUO when it comes to how to play.
- More destructable objects
- Allow for more seamless/familiar mission architect modules/storylines
- - - Allow for paid storyline content by author (revenue sharing)
- - - Dress it up a bit so that it seems more like you're walking into a comic book store and picking a book off the shelves.
- - - Allow players to play as key characters in theses isolated story arcs. Let them "live" CoH's history.
- Allow for more accessible and publicized weekly and monthly events. Use incentives via badge or otherwise for these events.
- Integrate youtube and screenshot saves with the forum/social media so that players can share their adventures more easily. A set space amount would be given with more space available at a cost.
- Solidify achievements/badges/etc. so they are part of the forums/character profile. Make sure the achievements can be hidden/shown based on player and alt.
- Allow for SG/Forum integration based on server then group. Again, allow for integration so that SG events can be generated on the forum and posted both in game and on forum.
- Allow for SG/VG clashes - Publicize these and if possible make them so that they can simply be watched by people (spectator mode)
- Allow for Hero/Villain challenges (PvP) to be point and achievement based, also allowing for spectator mode. Make sure these achievements are linked to the forum for recognition/promotion.
- Allow spectator mode to be streamed to mobile devices
- Allow some mission editor features to be worked on with mobile devices
- Market and merchandise as much as possible - more so than in the past.
- A F2P element could be in the works. I'm not going to go into that. Implementations and suggestions would be largely based on their approach.
- Allow for storylines to have an overview - allowing the player to decide if they want to go that route or not. Again, similar to going to a comic book store and leafing through an issue or two. This would allow for the player to "buy in" to the storyline more.
Some of this is already somewhat available. I'm looking to have these things more connected. Allow for people who have CoH on their mind when their away from their home computer to connect and interact in some way, shape or form. Allow them to be more involved so that they are thinking about it more. Help drive the desire.
That's all for now. These are just random improvement thoughts off the top of my head. I've played this, CO and DCUO. I'm still here and purchased all the stuff that's come out for CoX. I wish Paragon nothing but the best.
It's late and I'm fading.
Best Wishes to All
- The biggest thing is to add story elements to the game. EVERY zone in the game would have a theme, and a story arc to it. ( as of now, only a few zones are designed this way )
- I'd get rid of the random doorway paradigm for missions. Every door would lead to the same office/warehouse/whatever and to the same villain group.
- I'd have an epic storyline that spans the entire journey of your character to level 50, much like guild wars does. ( Perhaps even multiple storylines that could change based on decisions your character made )
- I'd enhance the game engine to where they could do better modeling, and have something more than just male/female/large.
- More people, more traffic, more everything in the city. It seems like a ghost town most of the time.
- No war walls. There needs to be seamless transitions from 1 zone to the next.
- Better music and sound effects. Voice acting in cutscenes and from npcs. The game is too silent.
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