This is impressive. I've worked on similar builds before but I don't think I've made one this solid yet.
My one suggestion, if this matters to you, would be to swap the LOTG Def in Maneuvers for an Enzyme -- you lose 10% regen but get fully softcapped. Personally, being under 45% bothers me, even if it's only a little bit under.
Quote:
Actually, that doesn't work. A Cyctoskeleton (assuming this is what you meant instead of Enzyme) which I typically love in defensive powers is actually less defense than a pure defense IO. The LoTG is 25.5% defense while a Cyto is only 20%. The benefits to Cycto is that is has endurance reduction as well.|
Originally Posted by Celestyna
My one suggestion, if this matters to you, would be to swap the LOTG Def in Maneuvers for an Enzyme -- you lose 10% regen but get fully softcapped. Personally, being under 45% bothers me, even if it's only a little bit under.
|
That last nine one-hundreth of a percent really bothers me too, but I couldn't find a reasonable way to fix it in the hundred or so variations of the build that tried without giving up perma-Dom without Hasten or some other equally important goal.
Update: I didn't realize that Enzyme was 33% to defense. I went and updated the build. Thanks for pointing that out.
Quote:
no, he meant enzyme. its a bug but its been around since forever and the devs are too busy to fix it. iirc castle acknowledged its existence before he left. 2 enzymes cap out defense slotting because they use the defense debuff schedule for defense buffing(33ish% vs 22ish%).|
Originally Posted by Dr_Dismemberment
Actually, that doesn't work. A Cyctoskeleton (assuming this is what you meant instead of Enzyme) which I typically love in defensive powers is actually less defense than a pure defense IO. The LoTG is 25.5% defense while a Cyto is only 20%. The benefits to Cycto is that is has endurance reduction as well.
That last nine one-hundreths of a percent really bothers me too, but I couldn't find a reasonable way to fix it in the hundred or so variations of the build that tried without giving up perma-Dom without Hasten or some other equally important goal. |
one thing i dont understand about your build is that you sacrifice so much to get fireball but skipped fire breath. its a nice mathematical feat but imo if you have to include barrier(an extra click every 2 mins) you might as well just get some other temporary power like cryonite armor for a more meaningful defense buff for cheaper.
Quote:
Ah, I never realized that. Nice to know. I've updated the build to include it.|
Originally Posted by Solo_One
no, he meant enzyme. its a bug but its been around since forever and the devs are too busy to fix it. iirc castle acknowledged its existence before he left. 2 enzymes cap out defense slotting because they use the defense debuff schedule for defense buffing(33ish% vs 22ish%).
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Solo_One
one thing i dont understand about your build is that you sacrifice so much to get fireball but skipped fire breath. its a nice mathematical feat but imo if you have to include barrier(an extra click every 2 mins) you might as well just get some other temporary power like cryonite armor for a more meaningful defense buff for cheaper.
|
Also, if you don't like clicking Barrier every two minutes, I think this build would still be fairly impressive without it -- even without replacing Barrier with a temporary power. 40% S/L defense is nothing to sneeze at especially on a power set without any innate defensive power and especially on a dominator with all the extra mitigation from controls. The only reason I posted this was because I believe it is a perfectly viable build and more than a "mathematical feat".
wasnt trying to dismiss you, its a good build but i would never take barrier personally nor will i ever have a glad armor proc so its invalidated in my head.
so you know you arent alone, here is a build i had saved for something similar on my fire/energy dom using psi mastery, nerve, and power boost to get 45% def to s/l and alot to everything else while also having ~90% +rech and a s/l/psi resist armor:
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1421;693;1386;HEX;| |78DA65935B4F134114C767BB5BB9154B2957B995B6B495CBC2468D890F1A0345D15| |6AB24BE920A6B5903DB667749E4CDCFA089A888FA1DD4E817F1F22144117DF352CF| |9EFFB455BA69F7B773E63F732E73267F6F2124C4FD0B4209CF6F145D7765A1BC69D| |945AFECB4E6B7BCA26795ED8861E86762779CF266AC723BBD16CBE55B8410A375E1| |CA7CD9F69CF286BE6839666D106B4C5F74DDE2D686A7676DD3296DD78691257BDD7| |44CDBD36B1FE1429936C999C535D371D7AD4A3B8F972BA6B9D6C99F8B5669DDB3EC| |52A826ACD0602C5BB156F5824B815AAB2BF9A2EB99CE36B228F9EE0728D614FD13A| |A904F5513D9801086085D661CBF042C32BA97189F037539FDE81149DA408125A8BC| |12BEA8EF3563FA0D63E62DF00ED8557CECD33EAA74AB160871D17A03B8C9685F06E| |EF2AA089536C85EAA81E05982A68A6335F6F28E0992B440225A8E71B07132B5C149| |A06D8A37EA02FA0085041D10A81D882204BFA388C2404C2AE93A65D69DFDE464441| |C908730DC29E1FFF68E923802B112D925595474EF31349A89CA2CA232FA9E1A9145| |1F497A6516BD3065A84EFD32C8FE8F01DFF9C007E01323F69E9126DDA02CE9E0752| |EC0896B409E11CB01571987F41E92F221E43E8C6C8791FBA8AC044E2045BB8F20B0| |E0C84B2EC1F873600F78C648BC00C679D524AD1A93B18F1DB0DFC43746F210F8CEF| |06D71D94471BF3168A6CA33A93FC06FE01723FD93F183DE1372D5C40E212DD28F81| |278CC9A7C02EB0CDA710A7C3C9201335730ED53F7994287D92A453F2C0A6FC35693| |19D04CE439822852E43D0D1FDB3E8FE5974FF2CBADF40F71B08A1874E794EF6D31C| |5C0D6B472F56BC61A94E36CDCE35598C26CBA926CBE9264BAEC952D0EA175A286C6| |9EBAA5FD6EA7E3BCDCA06556638A9AF0D93A2DCE26CB42B5CA52FFF8A332C3E6898| |5465878F31F00878C0D01E32B2517A4357FD0B339EF0D8| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
if you pop powerboost before using link mind you get that extra 3-5% def(cant remember the actual number) for the softcap but also will have all the powers worth taking from all 3 sets.
Its interesting because my current (but outdated) Fire/Fire Doms build is Scorpion Mastery for softcapped s/l. I've wanted to update him but didn't want to give up softcapped s/l for Fireball and RoF.
I couldn't get a build that was softcapped s/l with Fire Mastery that also had a level of recharge I was happy with. So this build is pretty cool. I think what I'm actually gonna do is just go full recharge for my Fire/Fire Dom, since Tough and Fire Shield with Cardiac and the Shield Wall +3% res IO nets you over 60% s/l resistance. That with the Rebirth Destiny should make him tough enough. Especially with how fast he'll kill stuff with Fire Mastery and Reactive 
Very interesting build though, thanks for sharing.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Here is a variation of my build with 46% S/L resistance and 32.8% S/L defense (so can be capped with 1 small luck). Non of the defense is dependent on Barrier.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Its interesting because my current (but outdated) Fire/Fire Doms build is Scorpion Mastery for softcapped s/l. I've wanted to update him but didn't want to give up softcapped s/l for Fireball and RoF.
I couldn't get a build that was softcapped s/l with Fire Mastery that also had a level of recharge I was happy with. So this build is pretty cool. I think what I'm actually gonna do is just go full recharge for my Fire/Fire Dom, since Tough and Fire Shield with Cardiac and the Shield Wall +3% res IO nets you over 60% s/l resistance. That with the Rebirth Destiny should make him tough enough. Especially with how fast he'll kill stuff with Fire Mastery and Reactive Very interesting build though, thanks for sharing. |
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1466;716;1432;HEX;| |78DA6593EB4E134114C767BB2D97426F20728752A02D2D9416D068D010E412406A4| |08C1ABF900A1BD8A4EC92EE6AE49B4F60143578790C35FA206A7C0911351AEFF5EC| |FF0C65139AB4BF993367CEFF5C3AF93BD3F542DC9D104A68AA58B0ACD569734B370| |AB659F2E50B1BFA5AC39C6947278DF5E805D3DED44A96B9A5550B21BA2A6EAB53A6| |6197CC6266562F69879BEEA3E349CB2ADC2ADA74AC95760E779179838269869D395| |CF8974C8AB1B2AD69EB112CE78DDBBAA5DFD48BBABD530FCBA256D8D68D8D0036B3| |FAC6A64DBBF6996D7D8DB5F305CB76342ADA2D94688ABEBDAA909FB24FE43C42E48| |4679E310D786718B3C08939E09BA7724B884E42427C27932203296978859340C30A| |1963A26109482C332E037D24AFCA5BEA63C571AF7904F8EF331E02F5BB8C07408CD| |AEC835859F1A5051263C42958359FF8AACF43FEE439C638D072967106681B274FAF| |2A7ED0AE96D3F0D63E473D6D7B40C713C653A0EB199020953AE95E77896BCD035D0| |B8C8B4074110850BA01D9AD40132AF8490721690A71EA490A1A61931A79EB71FA1A| |7D07F4BC677C007ED16FA36C59A3D33CD2F90D9D9E3F40EF5FC63F4699CBA71C9A6| |4CB9A3887441850E8A459EA365FE1A9F08CE23CA338CF4F25BF568E205A47A0EBC8| |B663EA65D17E8FFF27E4D52907D0C93A7D216020C80800A93A20E7074274AB5BB6A| |39B6FA5544794D38A7D45ECBE2FC0C00190FA0C38C5F6CB59F40FF14916181C6664| |188340905A9C94EEC9D3300D8D314618A3C0F0292044EE69E99E7E83390DBF66BC0| |2722F192F8030B967648F32CD8A33AE20959695A565B9B40E6FE5F5A8823B5EC51D| |AFE23752C38D8F397E1CAD9CF2BA5EDC10C4B2C74D39B7A907A6D1E35E63C74D8B6| |E938AD297BC95072D14FE8BD6862BAFB5FCD14FC7B25485837C3A3229CA82E2BC94| |E05554BCEF764EC2F9E0C8E451F67836BB403C0A8765BF1387C5AEB9D6D75DEB1BA| |EF5043D8A9C5CFF07288FD9D4| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Now that's really interesting. End use looks like it could be a problem though, even with the Cardiac Alpha. Toggles burn 1.4 end/sec, total end rec is 3.62, with permadom adding about another 1/sec. Have you played either of these builds to see how endurance is when in use? Using all the AoEs and all?
One thing I'd change is put Invis where Bonfire is, then take Consume at 49. I'd also swap around the placement of some of the sets, but that wouldn't change anything but the stats on individual attacks.
Very very interesting though, might have to steal this and tweak it for my Dom!
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
I haven't tried out this build yet. My Fire^3 is still a baby (I do have lots of experience with fire blast set and fire control set from other toons), I just like planning early 8-).|
Originally Posted by Silas
Now that's really interesting. End use looks like it could be a problem though, even with the Cardiac Alpha. Toggles burn 1.4 end/sec, total end rec is 3.62, with permadom adding about another 1/sec. Have you played either of these builds to see how endurance is when in use? Using all the AoEs and all?
One thing I'd change is put Invis where Bonfire is, then take Consume at 49. I'd also swap around the placement of some of the sets, but that wouldn't change anything but the stats on individual attacks. Very very interesting though, might have to steal this and tweak it for my Dom! |
Like I said in my original post, depending on testing I'd probably swap bonfire for consume. I'm guessing in a team run you'd probably have enough extra buffs that it won't be a problem and when running solo, just the time moving from spawn to spawn will be enough to gain back enough endurance. It's a tough choice, I really love both powers. On all my other high level toons, I almost always go with radial musculature, so not a lot of experience with cardiac. The numbers look promising though.
I'm also guessing that endurance consumption will depend a lot on play style. If you do your opening sequence and let the pets and hot feet finish off most things I'm guessing you'll be just fine. If you find the need to be constantly spamming your biggest attacks, you might be better off with consume.
Also, if you can live with 60% rather than 63% S/L, you can replace the PvP resistance IO with the PvP defensive IO and then you can turn off Stealth, saving quite a bit of endurance and increasing your run speed substantially. Actually, I think I'll update the build in a bit to do just that.
This is what I've come up with. Still not totally happy with it, its a WIP 
Code:
Same deal, 32% def but without needing to run Stealth. Has a travel power as well as CJ. Moved the purple sets around to make the most of the powers. Only thing I don't like is needing the Glad Def IO, but that's not a huge deal for this kind of performance. | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1446;684;1368;HEX;| |78DA6593FB4E134114C667BA5B4A4B4BA9502E221428378BB45DC13B4A0C502D520| |392A8F11F5271039BD496B4AB91FF7C04AFC1CB63A8D10751E34BA8A8D16850EBD9| |F34D2FB11BC86FE69B3367CEF9A693B933EF17E2EEAC90C1B95CB6545A9B2FDCB4F| |259BB507467B21BD6BAF00821FAABE2DA5C216F170BB978CA2A9A9549A4B67CB654| |CADECAD9B46C16B72BB3503ABF6916CDBC1DAF0C7CCB05CAB1BA659A37FC3C5C32B| |35B567E23C09394B5B169D32CC4B374FEB655B2AE5B39CBDEEE5DD8B2D67176265B| |B29D33AA677753A113F41FD584FACABA48BB843044DB79C6BE0520C5E838C7F8EEA| |A86D31F7D62981248286EF9403A41AEFBC04386FE18B8C7687AC4F84179707259D3| |560843C277095865F897194364A89BD397A5DBA9D71083C0286DF760C5ED39CDC50| |DCF00271863C781930CE31445EA9AF84933AFEAD7FB9430263A9E31F63F01761883| |CF1963744A8B0A6FB9C899FC8B8CD60BC0123CCB30A2546E40D913607B7E911E544| |A10958F53CE90EA3DF49ED6FBC4E03B46F42DF081D149C9DAD1A1680FB36D92A4B0| |DA1A866D9DB0AD137E75C33D8DE2BAB0D5D575069D772B1A87352E9C427A54613DC| |8AE93D4AB2CED8574A015F031FA83400B1060EC71B19277F595D98698E023627B3C| |9BFC0DFC6124FE22842222AA93C82E4B035F806FC05746D0E3F4833287509393674| |4DDC988C151A349601288E3E613B821F27A5C858FBFE21B38F8127803BC60C45E33| |82213C0C277CE2086738340D1C03A6D0CE515C3C85C795D371C7F23E9150465718A| |01692AA85A4B255AF3E234DE01E9B708FCDB8C066F5F3AFC59563FAFF4F2FD9A018| |0DCA548332DDA02C3528CB7AF5510BC98AB7ADFA60CB1F7DB42AEB573FD714292F7| |38BC38BD279409F1A62776B8A4BEEE0D90CB0F506B0E273D2E028FEAED40957EBC6| |D7EAC633EDB4558DFF016C5EFE56| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
What do you guys think? Ideas, improvements, tweaks?
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
I'm completely mystified why you'd swap Ragnarok in RoF with Positron's in Fireball. Fireball gets cast more often so will get much better effect from the damage proc and since it casts faster at base level, the extra recharge from Ragnarok will have a much more significant effect on RoF.|
Originally Posted by Silas
This is what I've come up with. Still not totally happy with it, its a WIP
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1446;684;1368;HEX;| |78DA6593FB4E134114C667BA5B4A4B4BA9502E221428378BB45DC13B4A0C502D520| |392A8F11F5271039BD496B4AB91FF7C04AFC1CB63A8D10751E34BA8A8D16850EBD9| |F34D2FB11BC86FE69B3367CEF9A693B933EF17E2EEAC90C1B95CB6545A9B2FDCB4F| |259BB507467B21BD6BAF00821FAABE2DA5C216F170BB978CA2A9A9549A4B67CB654| |CADECAD9B46C16B72BB3503ABF6916CDBC1DAF0C7CCB05CAB1BA659A37FC3C5C32B| |35B567E23C09394B5B169D32CC4B374FEB655B2AE5B39CBDEEE5DD8B2D67176265B| |B29D33AA677753A113F41FD584FACABA48BB843044DB79C6BE0520C5E838C7F8EEA| |A86D31F7D62981248286EF9403A41AEFBC04386FE18B8C7687AC4F84179707259D3| |560843C277095865F897194364A89BD397A5DBA9D71083C0286DF760C5ED39CDC50| |DCF00271863C781930CE31445EA9AF84933AFEAD7FB9430263A9E31F63F01761883| |CF1963744A8B0A6FB9C899FC8B8CD60BC0123CCB30A2546E40D913607B7E911E544| |A10958F53CE90EA3DF49ED6FBC4E03B46F42DF081D149C9DAD1A1680FB36D92A4B0| |DA1A866D9DB0AD137E75C33D8DE2BAB0D5D575069D772B1A87352E9C427A54613DC| |8AE93D4AB2CED8574A015F031FA83400B1060EC71B19277F595D98698E023627B3C| |9BFC0DFC6124FE22842222AA93C82E4B035F806FC05746D0E3F4833287509393674| |4DDC988C151A349601288E3E613B821F27A5C858FBFE21B38F8127803BC60C45E33| |82213C0C277CE2086738340D1C03A6D0CE515C3C85C795D371C7F23E9150465718A| |01692AA85A4B255AF3E234DE01E9B708FCDB8C066F5F3AFC59563FAFF4F2FD9A018| |0DCA548332DDA02C3528CB7AF5510BC98AB7ADFA60CB1F7DB42AEB573FD714292F7| |38BC38BD279409F1A62776B8A4BEEE0D90CB0F506B0E273D2E028FEAED40957EBC6| |D7EAC633EDB4558DFF016C5EFE56| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| What do you guys think? Ideas, improvements, tweaks? |
Also, Char does significant damage when slotted for damage (I wish my build had an extra slot for hold) but fully slotting Char with a hold set seems a waste. I think the damage bonus you got for blaze is smaller than the decrease in damage in Char and since Char gets cast more often, the effect will be even bigger.
Super speed needs a stealth IO.
I like the fact that you squeezed out a percent of recharge and the +end proc.
You should put in the performance shifter end IO for +5% run speed.
have you guys ever considered just using smoke? you can slot it for a little s/l def and its a non agro to-hit debuff too.
Quote:
Fire builds have enough setup time with Flashfire and Fire Cages that adding another step would be painful.
|
Originally Posted by Solo_One
have you guys ever considered just using smoke? you can slot it for a little s/l def and its a non agro to-hit debuff too.
|
That is one hell of an interesting build. I've been lazy, running /Mace for Scorpion Shield and PFF ... love me some PFF ... but that's really nice work.
I especially liked the Apoc Dam IO in Flares. That was a nice little ... "Didn't you hear me, I SAID *cost-no-object*!!!!!"
Quote:
Looking at the numbers, I might actually swap the RoF and Fireball slotting. Putting the Ragnaroks in RoF drops the recharge by a few seconds, which is more important than on Fireball. |
Originally Posted by Dr_Dismemberment
I'm completely mystified why you'd swap Ragnarok in RoF with Positron's in Fireball. Fireball gets cast more often so will get much better effect from the damage proc and since it casts faster at base level, the extra recharge from Ragnarok will have a much more significant effect on RoF.
Also, Char does significant damage when slotted for damage (I wish my build had an extra slot for hold) but fully slotting Char with a hold set seems a waste. I think the damage bonus you got for blaze is smaller than the decrease in damage in Char and since Char gets cast more often, the effect will be even bigger. Super speed needs a stealth IO. I like the fact that you squeezed out a percent of recharge and the +end proc. You should put in the performance shifter end IO for +5% run speed. |
Slotting Char for Hold isn't a waste. You've got Blaze and Blast for damage. Slotting char properly means you can permahold AVs right through the purple triangles. Blaze is by far the best attack in either set, so it makes the most out of the Apoc set. Even slotted for damage Char does 100 points of damage less than Fire Blast, and all DoT.
One of the best things about Fire/ is how fast activating the hold is. You've got plenty of ST damage in your secondary, slot your holds for holds. The reason I put Basilisks in Cinders was because Cinders has such bad hold/recharge numbers that it doesn't make a big difference anyway. FF+Cages is your main control. The damage proc is also going to go off way more often in Char.
Aside from the fact that I don't bother putting anything in stuff like Hurdle/Swift and travel powers in Mids, I don't put Stealth procs in Superspeed. I put them in one of the Stealth powers, so SS can be slotted for runspeed. Superspeed, Swift and Sprint won't cap your runspeed alone. Putting a Run Speed IO in Swift still leaves you 5-7 mph from the cap. When you love speed as much as I do, capping runspeed is important. Even the run speed bonus from the P.Shifters won't cap you.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
The default slotting with no hold enhancers in my build will permahold AVs through purple triangles (assuming 50 magnitude). I guess if you care more about big numbers than overall DPS, then that is a good argument. The difference is rather small though, so probably not worth worrying about and sometimes finishing off something extremely quickly is important. Another positive point for putting Decimation in Blaze is that it has higher endurance reduction than the purple set and Blaze uses significantly more endurance than Char.
|
Originally Posted by Silas
Slotting Char for Hold isn't a waste. You've got Blaze and Blast for damage. Slotting char properly means you can permahold AVs right through the purple triangles. Blaze is by far the best attack in either set, so it makes the most out of the Apoc set. Even slotted for damage Char does 100 points of damage less than Fire Blast, and all DoT.
|
Can you show the math for stacking enough mag to per ahold an AV with your slotting? I'm at work so I don't have access to the numbers.
It's not about "caring about big numbers" it's about slotting to make the most of your various powers. Blaze and Fire Blast both do way, way more damage than Char and all up front, unlike Char which is DoT. Char has very low base damage so it doesn't make good use of the Apoc set. If one wanted the best of both worlds, I'd say slot Blaze with 5 Apocs (all but the Dam) and 6 slot Char, 5 Unbreaks and the Apoc Dam.
The difference in end rdx for Blaze is a good point. Personally, I'd rather have my best ranged blast set in my best ranged blast.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Dom +3 extra magnitude for unenhanceable 17.9 secs at a recharge time of 2.1s means the most anyone can get from the domination portion of Char is roughly 24 magnitude (at most 8 casts can stack). The regular enhanced duration portion of the power lasts 26.82 for an extra possible 36 magnitude (at most 12 casts can stack) for a max total magnitude of 60 hold doing nothing but casting Char.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Can you show the math for stacking enough mag to per ahold an AV with your slotting? I'm at work so I don't have access to the numbers.
|
Thinking about the the overall DPS, I'm not so sure that Apocalypse is better in Char since it has better recharge time which affects the entire damage of the power so would have better effect in a higher damage power. You'd really need to do a calculation on the entire attack chain, I'm guessing it would be pretty close.
Update: The math for hold above is incorrect because it doesn't take cast time into account. See post below.
Quote:
That's kind of a Catch-22 though. When you're trying to figure out your endurance sustainability, the amount of endurance each power costs is obviously important, but what's more important is how often you use each power.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Dismemberment
Another positive point for putting Decimation in Blaze is that it has higher endurance reduction than the purple set and Blaze uses significantly more endurance than Char.
|
In this case, you're saying that you want to put more end enhancement in Blaze because it uses more end per cast, but in switching out the Apocalypse set, you're also making Blaze recharge slower, which means that the end cost you're improving won't come up as often. At the heights of global recharge we're discussing, that's not going to be a huge factor for single-target attacks, but it is worth considering. For instance, using Silas' build above, the switch you advocate results in the following difference:
Blaze Before: 7.137 Endurance, 3.097 seconds recharge.
Blaze After: 6.72 Endurance (-0.417), 3.331 seconds recharge (+0.234).
Assuming you use Blaze every time it's available (which won't always be possible, but which you generally should try to do), the former slotting yields an end consumption of 7.137 / (3.097 + 1.188) = ~1.66 EPS. The latter slotting yields an end consumption of 6.72 / (3.331 + 1.188) = ~1.48 EPS.
That's a savings of 0.18 EPS, which is pretty good, but wait: you're also losing end reduction in a different attack. You mentioned Char, but I'll use Fire Blast since it has the same cooldown and endurance cost as Char --and because slotting Char as an attack would cost me a little global recharge in my copy of Silas' build. Let's assume that you use Blast at roughly the same rate that you use Blaze: (4.834 Decimation end cost - 5.133 Apocalypse end cost) / (~4 seconds) = -0.07 EPS.
So our net savings is about 0.11 EPS. Again, that's not terrible, but not quite as impressive as we might at first have thought. In practice, I'd be tempted to say that Blaze will probably be used more than the other ST attacks, because you're gonna have other stuff going on -- mezzes, utility powers, AoE attacks, etc -- and when you're only attacking sporadically, chances are you're going to lean on your heaviest hitter. I know that on my Dom I'll frequently wait out the latter part of Blaze's cooldown rather than use a different ST attack because I know that one Blaze will kill the target. But that brings up another point: If you're going to be using Blaze more often in practice than your other ST attacks, then you will use more endurance with the Apocalypse set, but you will also do less damage with the Decimation set (no purple damage proc).
The fact is that the best theoretical Fire/Fire ranged ST attack chain -- Blaze-Blast-Char (or Blaze-Blast-Ring) -- is all but impossible to run seamlessly, because of the cooldown on Blaze (12 seconds, versus Blasters' 10, a small wrinkle that tripped me up when I first started playing Doms). You need to get it down to about 2.77 seconds. Silas' build has obscene recharge, and yet his Blaze only clocks in at ~3.1 seconds.
Blaze is so freaking good that it's hard to make a credible argument for not reducing its recharge as much as you possible can, honestly.
FWIW, I'd lean towards the same approach with Fireball. Rain of Fire has a longer base cooldown, and thus will superficially benefit more from the extra recharge enhancement in the Ragnarok set, but I regard Fireball as more generally useful/spammable. Ball animates much faster, and doesn't require the targets to remain in a given area for 15 seconds to deliver its full damage. Given the duration of Rain's DoT, changing the slotting to gain 3 or 4 seconds isn't gonna suddenly turn it into a more than once-per-spawn power.
(The present state of the Reactive Interface proc might make Rain more attractive to use on a near permanent basis, but even then you're looking at a few comparatively rare situations -- AV fights -- in which you'd want literally spam Rain as soon as it expires, and frankly I expect that Reactive's interaction with Rain powers is gonna be fixed sooner rather than later. YMMV.)
Quote:
| Dom +3 extra magnitude for unenhanceable 17.9 secs at a recharge time of 2.1s means the most anyone can get from the domination portion of Char is roughly 24 magnitude (at most 8 casts can stack). The regular enhanced duration portion of the power lasts 26.82 for an extra possible 36 magnitude (at most 12 casts can stack) for a max total magnitude of 60 hold doing nothing but casting Char. |
So 17.9 seconds allows 5 hold effects to stack, for 15 mags. 26.82 seconds allows 7 holds to stack, for 21 mags. 21 + 15 = 36, which is way short of the 50+ you're gonna need. If you pick up the Meglomaniac Accolade, you can brute force your way through a +0 AV's protection for a little while -- and generally I tend to agree with your approach of slotting Char as an attack, but then again I'm rather burnt out on solo escapades like soloing AVs.
Don't expect your slotting to hold AVs consistently.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
The reason I first swapped the Rags into Fireball was force of habit. On my Corrs, I use Fireball so much more because of how spammable it is. Plus, the KD from throwing Fireballs around is decentish mitigation since they don't have AoE -KB.
On this build...I'm still debating it. Lot of tough calls like that for this. I'm also leaning towards Ragnaroks in Fireball because Posi Blast gives such crap accuracy, whereas RoF has higher accuracy. The extra 3-4 seconds not changing it from a once-per-spawn power is a very good point. It'll only sorta matter in AV fights, but there this build will be pumping out so much damage its not a big deal. Hrmmmm.
Apocs in Blaze is something I'm definitely leaving as is. Slotting my best attack with my best set is a no-brainer for me.
Cheers for the Char math Obitus, I didn't think it was possible to keep an AV perma-held without hold slotting. Whether or not its worth it is another question I'd personally prefer to make the most of my individual powers and since Blast/Blaze do way more damage, DPA and DPS than Char but can't mez anything, I'll slot Char for the mez. The damage in Char is a nice bonus but I'm not going to slot it as an attack.
I have permaheld several AVs on my Fire/Fire Dom and I've always had Unbreaks in Char.
I've got a lot of toying to do with this build. Very good to know that the kind of things I want with it can be done, just gotta tweak it till I've got something I really like. Not terribly happy about the Hot Feet slotting, or end use in general.
Obitus, how good are you with Dom builds? Care to take a crack at this?
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Ah, thanks for the correction there.
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
A 2.1 second recharge timer gives you a 2.1 + 1.32 = 3.42 second total cycle time. Char doesn't cast instantly, after all.
So 17.9 seconds allows 5 hold effects to stack, for 15 mags. 26.82 seconds allows 7 holds to stack, for 21 mags. 21 + 15 = 36, which is way short of the 50+ you're gonna need. If you pick up the Meglomaniac Accolade, you can brute force your way through a +0 AV's protection for a little while -- and generally I tend to agree with your approach of slotting Char as an attack, but then again I'm rather burnt out on solo escapades like soloing AVs. Don't expect your slotting to hold AVs consistently. |
Quote:
Moreover, Rain is not a terribly good single-target attack on its own merits. It has a longish activation and the damage isn't really anything special when compared with the various alternatives you have at your disposal. The only reason you'd really want to spam Rain against AVs is that the Reactive Interface proc turns Rain into a near-nuke-level power. That's only been true since the most recent patch, and I don't expect it to last. (It is hilarious right now, though |
Originally Posted by Silas
On this build...I'm still debating it. Lot of tough calls like that for this. I'm also leaning towards Ragnaroks in Fireball because Posi Blast gives such crap accuracy, whereas RoF has higher accuracy. The extra 3-4 seconds not changing it from a once-per-spawn power is a very good point. It'll only sorta matter in AV fights, but there this build will be pumping out so much damage its not a big deal. Hrmmmm.
|
)Oh, and just to clarify: Rain doesn't have higher innate accuracy than Fireball. Or it didn't, the last time I paid attention. The real numbers display (and IIRC, Mids') is misleading; it shows you the accuracy of the power that summons the rain, at 100%, not the accuracy of each individual attack the pseudo-pet Rain directs at its targets.
Quote:
|
Cheers for the Char math Obitus, I didn't think it was possible to keep an AV perma-held without hold slotting. Whether or not its worth it is another question I'd personally prefer to make the most of my individual powers and since Blast/Blaze do way more damage, DPA and DPS than Char but can't mez anything, I'll slot Char for the mez. The damage in Char is a nice bonus but I'm not going to slot it as an attack.
|
As for whether it's worthwhile to slot Char as a hold, that's a matter of preference. I'm biased because I prefer a ranged playstyle. The character I've spent the most time on recently is a Mind/Fire/Fire Dom with soft-capped ranged DEF. For her, slotting Dominate as an attack is a no-brainer, because Dominate's 1/3rd of her ST attack chain. Even if I do come up against an AV that I want to permanently control, I can switch to Confuse stacking.
A Fire/Fire would have a more up-close-and-personal play style, and more damage overall. The fact that you can slot a relatively cheap purple set in Char is another factor. To make a long story short, it wasn't my intent to second guess you. There's no right or wrong answer.
Quote:
|
I've got a lot of toying to do with this build. Very good to know that the kind of things I want with it can be done, just gotta tweak it till I've got something I really like. Not terribly happy about the Hot Feet slotting, or end use in general. Obitus, how good are you with Dom builds? Care to take a crack at this? |
I'm probably a little less recharge-hungry than most Dom players, so I don't know that what I'd come up with would suit you, but I'm happy to give it a shot if you like.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
This is very rough; I doubt I'd play it, but as a proof-of-concept I thought it was kinda interesting:
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Code:
32% melee, 32.6% ranged, and within two small Lucks of the soft cap to everything else. Lost 24% recharge from Silas' build, which may or may not be a deal breaker depending on how apt you are to juggle Hasten/Domination. Personally I use a bind to alternate them more or less automatically.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1457;693;1386;HEX;| |78DA6593E96E525110C7CF858B2D140A48572B656DA9D402D756FBB131AD4D6A4AD| |2DA448D5F1AD25EE12A02E1E2F6C9BA3C806BEAF2186AF441DC5E425BD768AAE2DC| |FF1C96C80DE477CECC9C3933FFC9C95E5B700BB1352714EF7C31679AEB0BE54B462| |9572B571DD95CDED8F0AC19640E9FD2AF18A6BED92584186D46ACCF974BB56AB998| |5A34AA7A63136AB98F9B66EE72B1466EBD7ABDB1F32F950A7A552FD5528D856BA54| |C39D62ABABEE9C67259CF558C52DE83CDA2912FD468E76DB836F5AA59302A23272A| |C606DF9CCD9935EB86E6CD4354E624FD637621BFBA437CB0091114DDEF01DF3B60F| |F1BC6224113034BC0775BF314FDE81371CAA3C83CCA7DC50AB2DD633C00D4478CBB| |C0BE87C00FCA6397A7ECE7053C79A0BB00B80CC605C07D118892C60E5C56571C933| |04518E394AC8B3D8EAE3D943AFA1B88FF61FC0512758675B9267ED2C6C955A8CE27| |8484E87BCA78061C78CCD8061274A84716DD73037DB8B780DE5B8C9B80EF3630700| |78851D11E29990792FDA26BBDD2E2E5FA2728B59F4D763FEB1F790BC4780C311ED1| |00250B480502FDC8AFCDD24EB50B1BB9FA65D6FEAB141D1076320D72B46D30AE583| |D0C25184720809F028665C030A71B95E91A54296444868C70C841B844937B284D81| |2E411638C902277914533C8A291E459A4791A488905433B40B53F833E32BE30B10D| |901B46F4080CA89CA2EA3116867651D93531CD310359E614C31523CF434D04B3A4F| |C8F08997C870E805E335E339907C0578FDFC5EACF0C9A3C870788631CB98E6E68E0| |13E0A4F49B95296F6419166E5D3AC7C1F3590910D64A49E6ADBA35A15568351CBC4| |69EA49F5FF3797E9B0681D96E90ECB4C8765B9C3B2A2365FB3506071FA9A2FB5FED| |1455EA5DDBBD3B228CA6974133F893E3F75C4EEB62C36651B6AC5C2D05863ACBAAC| |347CD599B6F5D9B6F5B9B635BEB9001D95867F85A30BF0| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
End use is high; I'd have to run some numbers to see how long it's sustainable under various circumstances. In big crowds, that shouldn't be a problem because of Consume.
Will have to revisit this later.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
Quote:
Damnit haha, that's what I get for posting on 2 hours sleep. As I was writing it I was thinking "wasn't there some screwiness with the 2.0 accuracy not being the real accuracy?" but thought fuggit. I think it also just seems like RoF is very accurate even though its got standard accuracy because of all the tick spam. Can't really tell when it misses. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
Moreover, Rain is not a terribly good single-target attack on its own merits. It has a longish activation and the damage isn't really anything special when compared with the various alternatives you have at your disposal. The only reason you'd really want to spam Rain against AVs is that the Reactive Interface proc turns Rain into a near-nuke-level power. That's only been true since the most recent patch, and I don't expect it to last. (It is hilarious right now, though
)Oh, and just to clarify: Rain doesn't have higher innate accuracy than Fireball. Or it didn't, the last time I paid attention. The real numbers display (and IIRC, Mids') is misleading; it shows you the accuracy of the power that summons the rain, at 100%, not the accuracy of each individual attack the pseudo-pet Rain directs at its targets. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
As for whether it's worthwhile to slot Char as a hold, that's a matter of preference. I'm biased because I prefer a ranged playstyle. The character I've spent the most time on recently is a Mind/Fire/Fire Dom with soft-capped ranged DEF. For her, slotting Dominate as an attack is a no-brainer, because Dominate's 1/3rd of her ST attack chain. Even if I do come up against an AV that I want to permanently control, I can switch to Confuse stacking.
A Fire/Fire would have a more up-close-and-personal play style, and more damage overall. The fact that you can slot a relatively cheap purple set in Char is another factor. To make a long story short, it wasn't my intent to second guess you. There's no right or wrong answer. |
Another thing is that Dominate is kindof a different case. While yeah, they're both ST holds, Dominate has several advantages as an attack that Char lacks. One, its Psy damage so it'll hit Unstoppable AVs for full damage. Two, its damage is all up front whereas Char is DoT. Finally, three, it doesn't have a positional vector, only psy typed, so it'll punch right through stuff like Elude.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Heh, well I'm pretty good at Mind/Fire Dom builds.
I'm probably a little less recharge-hungry than most Dom players, so I don't know that what I'd come up with would suit you, but I'm happy to give it a shot if you like. |
I suppose what I should do is come up with some builds that have 32-45% s/l defense and enough recharge for permadom and compare it with what I've got so far (the 32% def 126% rech build) and see which one I like more. Either way the build will have stupid amounts of recharge, so I may just have to get over my craziness
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Out of curiosity, I decided to see if I could make a non-gimped, defensively soft-capped for S/L, cost-no-object Fire^3 build taking into consideration new incarnate powers. I tried this once a while ago without taking incarnates into consideration and was completely unable to make anything worth using. This build assumes you are running T4 Cardiac and T4 Barrier. I think I've mostly succeeded.
This build has:
1. All the "must have" powers from all three sets, with the exception of Fire Imps, I just couldn't fit that in the build and they are fairly situational so I dropped them. All attack powers are decently slotted (and most are close to ideally slotted except Char which I'd love to add a sixth slot for extra damage).
2. Perma-Hasten, perma-Domination, perma-Domination without Hasten.
3. Defense soft-capped for S/L (45.4%) with the 5% minimum defense from Barrier.
4. A sustainable attack chain of Blaze, Incinerate, Fire Blast (with a .06s gap). The build is perfectly viable to run without Tough which makes endurance regen issues much better especially with heavy AoE usage.
I wish I had about 8 more slots, this build is *extremely* tight. Just 3 more slots and it would have capped S/L without needing Stealth (1 extra Enzyme in Weave and 2 Enzymes in Maneuvers -- after replacing CJ with Manuevers) but I haven't figured out how to work that in yet -- it might not be possible without losing perma-Dom without Hasten.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.94
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Hot And Bothersome: Level 50 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Assault
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Char
- (A) Unbreakable Constraint - Hold
- (3) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (3) Unbreakable Constraint - Endurance/Hold
- (5) Unbreakable Constraint - Hold/Recharge
- (5) Unbreakable Constraint - Accuracy/Hold/Recharge
Level 1: Flares- (A) Damage Increase IO
Level 2: Fire Cages- (A) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Immobilize
- (9) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Immobilize/Recharge
- (11) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Recharge
- (11) Enfeebled Operation - Immobilize/Range
- (13) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Endurance
- (13) Enfeebled Operation - Endurance/Immobilize
Level 4: Incinerate- (A) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (15) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
- (15) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (17) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (17) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (19) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
Level 6: Hasten- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (19) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 8: Hot Feet- (A) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
- (21) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
- (21) Armageddon - Damage
- (23) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (23) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
- (25) HamiO:Microfilament Exposure
Level 10: Fire Blast- (A) Decimation - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (25) Decimation - Accuracy/Damage
- (27) Decimation - Damage/Endurance
- (27) Decimation - Damage/Recharge
- (29) Decimation - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
Level 12: Flashfire- (A) Absolute Amazement - Endurance/Stun
- (29) Absolute Amazement - Stun
- (31) Absolute Amazement - Stun/Recharge
- (31) Absolute Amazement - Accuracy/Stun/Recharge
- (31) Absolute Amazement - Accuracy/Recharge
Level 14: Stealth- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
Level 16: Embrace of Fire- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 18: Cinders- (A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
- (33) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
- (33) Basilisk's Gaze - Recharge/Hold
- (33) Basilisk's Gaze - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
Level 20: Combustion- (A) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (34) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (36) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (36) Obliteration - Damage
Level 22: Boxing- (A) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
- (36) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (37) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (37) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
Level 24: Tough- (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
Level 26: Weave- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (37) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
Level 28: Consume- (A) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (39) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (39) Obliteration - Damage
- (39) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (40) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
Level 30: Combat Jumping- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
Level 32: Ring of Fire- (A) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Immobilize
- (40) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Immobilize/Recharge
- (42) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Recharge
- (42) Enfeebled Operation - Endurance/Immobilize
- (42) Enfeebled Operation - Accuracy/Endurance
- (50) Enfeebled Operation - Immobilize/Range
Level 35: Grant Invisibility- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
Level 38: Blaze- (A) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (43) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
- (43) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (45) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Recharge
- (45) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
Level 41: Rain of Fire- (A) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
- (45) Ragnarok - Damage
- (46) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
- (46) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (46) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Recharge
Level 44: Fire Ball- (A) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (48) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (48) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (48) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (50) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
Level 47: Fire Shield- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
Level 49: Invisibility- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
Level 0: Born In BattleLevel 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
- (7) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (7) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (9) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Level 1: DominationLevel 1: Sprint
- (A) Unbounded Leap - +Stealth
Level 2: Rest- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 4: Ninja RunLevel 2: Swift
- (A) Run Speed IO
Level 2: Health- (A) Miracle - +Recovery
- (43) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
Level 2: Hurdle- (A) Jumping IO
Level 2: Stamina- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (50) Endurance Modification IO
------------Set Bonus Totals:
/bind w "+forward$$powexecname Hasten"
/bind up "+forward$$powexecname Hasten"
/bind s "+backward$$powexecname Hasten"
/bind down "+backward$$powexecname Hasten"
/bind a "+left$$powexecname Barrier Core Epiphany"
/bind left "+left$$powexecname Barrier Core Epiphany"
/bind d "+right$$powexecname Barrier Core Epiphany"
/bind right "+right$$powexecname Barrier Core Epiphany"
/bind shift+lbutton "powexecname Rain of Fire"