We don't have enough information on how Threat is calculated to give you a solid answer on that.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
What level was the Scrapper? It should be pretty much impossible for a Defender to pull aggro off of a Scrapper who has Against All Odds running.
12 or 13 - it was before Against All Odds. Yeah, AAO is an aggro magnet.
Darn. Well, I think Area of effect plays a pretty decent factor in generating threat, but if we don't have the maths yet, we don't have the maths yet. Thanks.
We may not have the math, but debuffs *seriously* seem to annoy NPCs more than they should. Of course, they have for a while. (It's REALLY irritating with things like war wolves - debuff, and they take off across the map.)
Your -res aura should have been acting as an aggro aura on the Scrapper. However, Threat is calculated as such:
Threat = Damage * DebuffMod * AI Mod * AT Mod * RangeMod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000).
As such, if your Scrapper friend didn't have AAO running, you're basically comparing his damage, DebuffMod, AT Mod, and RangeMod against yours. He should have won on all of those, except for the DebuffMod, which you should be tied on. However, you may have hit many enemies that he hadn't hit. As such, while his threat is near zero (basically only the debuff from your aura), yours is now the damage times the debuff mod.
I'm betting that you got the aggro from the enemies he hadn't hit yet.
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That would be my assumption also Aett. Scrappers without an aggro aura tend to do a poor job of holding aggro off of ranged damage dealers. Now once that scrapper gets AAO it'll be a totally different story and he'll hold aggro nearly as well as a tanker.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Your -res aura should have been acting as an aggro aura on the Scrapper. However, Threat is calculated as such:
Threat = Damage * DebuffMod * AI Mod * AT Mod * RangeMod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000). As such, if your Scrapper friend didn't have AAO running, you're basically comparing his damage, DebuffMod, AT Mod, and RangeMod against yours. He should have won on all of those, except for the DebuffMod, which you should be tied on. However, you may have hit many enemies that he hadn't hit. As such, while his threat is near zero (basically only the debuff from your aura), yours is now the damage times the debuff mod. I'm betting that you got the aggro from the enemies he hadn't hit yet. |
As an example my BS/Regen scrapper at 50 has good damage output but if I'm first into the group and nail several with my attacks before a blaster tosses an AOE I'll STILL tend to loose aggro to the blaster. No taunt aura means I'm competing with pure damage... therefore I loose some aggro to a higher damage blaster. Yeah, I usually keep stuff I've hit with headsplitter or disembowel but I tend to loose the stuff whirling sword hit.
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Disruption Field (Sonic Disruption's -res aura) doesn't generate aggro.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Your -res aura should have been acting as an aggro aura on the Scrapper.
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There were only 3, I hit the same 3 he had just hit - but the "Enemies will not notice this attack" tips it to me. My debuff won over his damage.
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... for the caster. It's supposed to generate aggro for the anchor (in this case, the scrapper).
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Originally Posted by StarGeek
Disruption Field (Sonic Disruption's -res aura) doesn't generate aggro.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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So, if I have a character stand in a bunch of grey enemies and use it on him, then Aggro from the greys onto the anchor should be generated, right?|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
... for the caster. It's supposed to generate aggro for the anchor (in this case, the scrapper).
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That doesn't happen. No aggro is generated on either the caster or the anchor.
As you can see in this screenshot. The Luddites are debuffed by the Disruption Field, yet no aggro is generated on either character.
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There was a dev comment long ago when people were discussing threat modifiers that debuffs actually have a pretty high modifier. Like Radiation Infection is something like 80% of Fireball. Unfortunately I don't have specific numbers or a link to it, but I remember people were surprised the modifier was that high. That plus your AoE damage may have pulled the trick.
Plus, as a note, there is some "spawn AI" which can cause part of a spawn to go after anyone on a team if someone on a team generates aggro. Thats how that one guy in the spawn can come running around the corner to hit your invisible squishy (note that mobs don't use perception once they have aggro) who hasn't even seen the spawn yet after the scrapper runs in and triggers the spawn. I doubt this is the explanation for all three of them running at you, but its helpful to know.
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I've seen a similar thing in reverse with MM pets on the BAF trial. When doing the "Gotta Keep Em Separate" badge on my MM I was part of the group taking out the adds and I noticed that once the adds were down my pets would go charging off to attack one or other of the AVs despite the AVs being well out of normal aggro range for pets and my pets being on defensive. I eventually ended up putting them on passive and manually targeting them just to keep them stationary.
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Originally Posted by Scientist
Plus, as a note, there is some "spawn AI" which can cause part of a spawn to go after anyone on a team if someone on a team generates aggro. Thats how that one guy in the spawn can come running around the corner to hit your invisible squishy (note that mobs don't use perception once they have aggro) who hasn't even seen the spawn yet after the scrapper runs in and triggers the spawn. I doubt this is the explanation for all three of them running at you, but its helpful to know.
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Who is the bigger threat? The guy who just made your entire group much easier to kill or the guy hitting your buddy?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
We may not have the math, but debuffs *seriously* seem to annoy NPCs more than they should. Of course, they have for a while. (It's REALLY irritating with things like war wolves - debuff, and they take off across the map.)
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Seems about right to me.
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You ain't kidding about long ago it was about I5 iirc and they listed AT threat order as well - in the absence of anything else - 'trollers had the highest threat, followed by defenders, scrappers were at the bottom of the list. However bear in mind this was at the time that the devs had still to find the document detailing how Threat really worked so they got a lot of it wrong. Oh the joys of trying to maintain complex code without proper documentation.|
Originally Posted by Scientist
There was a dev comment long ago when people were discussing threat modifiers that debuffs actually have a pretty high modifier. Like Radiation Infection is something like 80% of Fireball. Unfortunately I don't have specific numbers or a link to it, but I remember people were surprised the modifier was that high. That plus your AoE damage may have pulled the trick.
Plus, as a note, there is some "spawn AI" which can cause part of a spawn to go after anyone on a team if someone on a team generates aggro. Thats how that one guy in the spawn can come running around the corner to hit your invisible squishy (note that mobs don't use perception once they have aggro) who hasn't even seen the spawn yet after the scrapper runs in and triggers the spawn. I doubt this is the explanation for all three of them running at you, but its helpful to know. |
Also by any chance did the scrapper have superspeed running - that has a -1 mag threat level
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I had to remove the cone attack from my FF/Energy Defender all together. Every other attack I used would let mobs ignore me. But as soon as my Cone energy wave knockdown doo da hit mobs, I was the center of attention and would quickly get a beat down. Single attacks, and even my PBAoE didn't get the attention of the cone.
I am not saying there's a link to the cones, but I'm saying if anyone would like a REAL challenge, then put any AT w/ aggro up against some mobs, and I can pull 'em w/ one push of a button. 
Pretty sad. I could see this making sense if I were doing moderate dmg even, but it's so insignifigant it boggles the mind.
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I once read long ago that the Devs were wrong when they tried to figure out how Taunt and Threat worked. But once they found out they were wrong they decided to keep what they had bumbled into rather than try and make it what they THOUGHT it was.
On a lvl 46ish team a buddy of mine caught a beat down from a spawn because he ran into the middle of the group of us and hit Heal Aura. No attacks and we were laying out the damage. He and I watched for a while and as a test he threw NO attacks for the next 3 spawns. Next one he hit HA again and again came under fire. Yet Castle used to maintain that there was no 'Healing Taunt' code in the game or at least there was but they had not 'turned it on.'
Taunt, Threat and Aggro are a group of things that the Devs stumbled into, got wrong, liked it, decided to keep and don't understand. It makes no sense sometimes but without a really clever AI for the enemy a quirky system is the closest thing we'll ever get to unexpected behavior.
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When Willpower was new, people were complaining about losing aggro despite using Rise to the Challenge. Then, Castle and Ghost Widow eventually sifted through the code and discovered exactly how Taunt worked - as a multiplier to Threat, based on the remaining duration of the Taunt. This explained the problem with RttC, since its duration is short compared to other Taunt auras.|
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
I once read long ago that the Devs were wrong when they tried to figure out how Taunt and Threat worked. But once they found out they were wrong they decided to keep what they had bumbled into rather than try and make it what they THOUGHT it was.
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Previously, everyone (except, presumably, whoever originally wrote the Threat code) thought that Taunt was a binary thing. Now we know it's not. There was never any intent to change it.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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This is kinda-sorta true, but not exact.|
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
I once read long ago that the Devs were wrong when they tried to figure out how Taunt and Threat worked. But once they found out they were wrong they decided to keep what they had bumbled into rather than try and make it what they THOUGHT it was.
On a lvl 46ish team a buddy of mine caught a beat down from a spawn because he ran into the middle of the group of us and hit Heal Aura. No attacks and we were laying out the damage. He and I watched for a while and as a test he threw NO attacks for the next 3 spawns. Next one he hit HA again and again came under fire. Yet Castle used to maintain that there was no 'Healing Taunt' code in the game or at least there was but they had not 'turned it on.' Taunt, Threat and Aggro are a group of things that the Devs stumbled into, got wrong, liked it, decided to keep and don't understand. It makes no sense sometimes but without a really clever AI for the enemy a quirky system is the closest thing we'll ever get to unexpected behavior. |
Basically, Castle and Ghost Widow went into the files upon the request of the players, who were noticing things with aggro that shouldn't be happening, based on how the players thought that aggro worked in the game. At the time, the original aggro coder had left, and so nobody on the staff or in the player community knew how aggro really worked in this game, though we had some ideas. In short, the common idea at the time was that in order to steal aggro from somebody, you needed to have twice the level of Taunt as them, and that other factors weren't really involved.
However, Ghost Widow found the Threat files buried within the system, and after looking through them, her and Castle gave us the very simplified formula that you'll see being thrown around today. As part of this, they disclosed through a series of PMs what some of the values are (e.g., the AT Mods, Damage, and TauntDurationRemaining *1,000), or at least close approximations of them (DebuffMod is usually around 2 per debuff effect). Then there are others that were too complicated to really boil down simply (RangeMod, AI Mod). What they did tell us was that they discovered that while they could create the AI mod to "Kill the Healer," there was no AI coded with that at that time. This means that "Healer Aggro" should not exist. However, that doesn't mean that spawn aggro doesn't exist, or that using a heal doesn't create some minor level of threat.
But if you're really seeing mobs that are being damaged by others, and they still attack the person who throws out a single PBAoE heal, then you should bug that, or at the very least get a video and see if other people can replicate the situation so that we can see what is going on, whether it's just certain enemy groups, or what have you. It could be all AoE damage that he is taking, if he's close enough to hit the meleers with his own PBAoE, but I'd want to see it to be sure.
I think that castle and Ghost Widow now have a good understanding of how it works, it's just very, very complicated, and gets easily broken because of its complexity. It doesn't mean that it was broken and they decided to keep it, it just didn't work how the documentation at the time said that it worked.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Ummm...Willpower was released in I11. I have e-mails from Castle discussing Threat from well before that.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
When Willpower was new, people were complaining about losing aggro despite using Rise to the Challenge. Then, Castle and Ghost Widow eventually sifted through the code and discovered exactly how Taunt worked - as a multiplier to Threat, based on the remaining duration of the Taunt. This explained the problem with RttC, since its duration is short compared to other Taunt auras.
Previously, everyone (except, presumably, whoever originally wrote the Threat code) thought that Taunt was a binary thing. Now we know it's not. There was never any intent to change it. |
Edit -> Or my memory is going. I have some e-mails from just before I11 came out, but others from slightly before that, and the others were deleted. So maybe I just think that I11 came out more recently than I remember. I am an old fart, after all.
However, in checking through my e-mails from Castle on the subject, I did find out that I was wrong on something else, too. DebuffMod is actually around 50, not 2. That might explain a lot.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
I believe that has to do with the knockdown part of it. Doing things that prevent the AI from doing what it wants generates pretty significant aggro. Thats why the temptingly early AoE immob controllers get is sometimes called the "aggro bomb". |
Originally Posted by Tourettes
I had to remove the cone attack from my FF/Energy Defender all together. Every other attack I used would let mobs ignore me. But as soon as my Cone energy wave knockdown doo da hit mobs, I was the center of attention and would quickly get a beat down. Single attacks, and even my PBAoE didn't get the attention of the cone.
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My impression as well is that knockdown/knockback generates an "aggro pulse" in addition to any damage from an attack. I know its pretty hard to do a safe single pull with a knockback attack, relative to an equal damage attack which doesn't do knockback.
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Which is why its MUCH better to Pull with the Blackwand than the Nem staff.
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Originally Posted by Scientist
I believe that has to do with the knockdown part of it. Doing things that prevent the AI from doing what it wants generates pretty significant aggro. Thats why the temptingly early AoE immob controllers get is sometimes called the "aggro bomb".
My impression as well is that knockdown/knockback generates an "aggro pulse" in addition to any damage from an attack. I know its pretty hard to do a safe single pull with a knockback attack, relative to an equal damage attack which doesn't do knockback. |
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No Superspeed, must just be the debuff plus the cone of hate.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
Also by any chance did the scrapper have superspeed running - that has a -1 mag threat level
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So I was duo teaming with a SG-mate of mine and he was playing a Sword & Shield Scrapper, myself a Sonic/Sonic Defender. I had the resistance debuff aura on my Scrapper friend who was front lining. Right after he Sliced 3 baddies for nearly half their life, I hit Howl and all 3 minions rushed past the scrapper that just cut them for half their life and had the -resistance aura on screwing with them to beat up on my Defender who barely damaged them at all. Granted, I also just stacked the -resistance debuff on all of them too, and I used a cone. I'm just wondering, what was the more annoying factor, the cone or the -resistance? I've noticed my Crab Spider's attacks punching through taunted foes when I step up for the 3-cone chain. Do Area attacks cause more aggro, even if they do squat for damage? Does debuff trump area for annoyance? Was it just a random event? Any data would be cool.