The inability to target yourself is probably a really basic code thing that would be a small piece of hell to change.
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Provably irrelevant; see recent thread on Incarnate Rewards in the Dev Digest. Participation metric does not count damage points.
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Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
If support classes could target ourselves, we might do enough damage in Incarnate trials to get the rewards we need.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Because quite a few Defender sets, if they could target themselves, would be absolute tank mages. An empath defender that can self-target would have the regen of a /regen with IH running, the defense of a /SR, and just shy of ranged blaster damage.
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Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
I would ask that the theory behind not allowing support classes to target themselves be rethought. If there are good reasons for it, feel free to tell me why.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Sounds like the "support" AT's aren't for you. It sounds like you would have more fun on a scrapper or blaster or even controller.
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Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
I like to play Defenders (my main is an FFer). I like to PUG and I like to solo.
In teams, I am the weakest member and I die first and often. When I solo, pre-Incarnate I had to use the lowest settings and it is still painfully slow for those below 40. Vigilance is a great help, but its still not very fun to solo. I know Defenders are meant to be on teams, but teams are not always available. So I HAVE to solo. In CoH, the ATs are given the ability to help each other, but the non-support classes are able to solo relatively easily. My point is, I don't think the support classes should be FORCED to rely on others. We should be able to target ourselves for buffs/heals. There is no logic to not allowing us to target ourselves. Just as the other classes still team, despite the ability to solo, the support classes will still get more benefit from teaming than soloing. If the support classes could target ourselves, quality of soloing would be improved and less frustrating. If support classes could target ourselves, we'd spend less time standing around trying not to get aggro in teams. If support classes could target ourselves, we could PARTICIPATE more in teams, instead of feeling like bots chasing people who are actually having fun. If support classes could target ourselves, we might do enough damage in Incarnate trials to get the rewards we need. It feels like support classes are being punished by not being allowed to use most of our own powers. In fact, that's the explanation the Defender forum gave for it's mythology of City of Heroes. I know there are other games, like the Industry Leader, who prefer the holy trinity of ATs. Maybe that's why the classic Dungeons and Dragons cleric was changed to pure supportive priest healers. But City of Heroes has a funner, more free-wheeling style of play. We don't need to hunt down a Stone tank for average missions. We can take whoever wants to play and work together. I would ask that the theory behind not allowing support classes to target themselves be rethought. If there are good reasons for it, feel free to tell me why. |
I think the only time I ever died on my Empath was when I'd sacrifice myself with Absorb Pain in order to save the Tank at the last second (and the rest of the team by default)
Though I generally only target through a tank or scrapper on him. To avoid the aggro.
My Blasters on the other hand...
I was actually shocked at how easy I'd survive on support toons. Controllers and Defenders mainly. For some reason, I never seem to generate enough aggro on myself to worry about. On the rare occasions I did I'd just run past the tank and let his aura take the mob from me.
The others are right though. Allowing support toons to target themselves would make Defenders the most overpowered toons ever.
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Sounds like you don't pay attention to what your "support classes" actually do. Self-buffing *would* make them overly powerful - it's part of the reason behind specialized groups like the Green Machine (empaths turning each other into regen blasters with great recharge and defense,) for instance.
Buffing only takes a few seconds. You also typically *have* self-buffs (Dispersion bubble, for instance, which *provides you with mez protection* as well as defense,) plus your powers have a secondary, debuffing effect... so you should actually be *using* your attacks.
Short form? I agree that it looks like support classes are just not for you.
Game balance. Each AT/powerset was designed to have weaknesses to balance their strengths.
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Exactly. Supports toons are balanced by what they do for others. IME, the OP is exaggerating the "plight" of support toons, like they are some "red shirts" from some sci-fi show another poster is complaining about. I have lots of supports toons, like my emp def which I have been playing nearly 7 years. She is not the weakest and she isn't the one the always dies first. She has no issues finding teams or participating. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Game balance. Each AT/powerset was designed to have weaknesses to balance their strengths.
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Self-buffing would be too powerful on support toons. And what of the other sets or ATs? What does my dark def get out of this change? What about a TA/ or /storm def? How about corruptors? I am sure my /PD MM would love to self buff. Controllers should self buff too? How is any of that balanced?
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Not really that simple. The defense would be well shy of an SR, although still very good. The HP would be significantly less than a scrapper so that regen isn't that hot. And the damage would be only close to a blaster until defiance starts supercharging the blaster's damage.|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
Because quite a few Defender sets, if they could target themselves, would be absolute tank mages. An empath defender that can self-target would have the regen of a /regen with IH running, the defense of a /SR, and just shy of ranged blaster damage.
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Empathy is the best example of any balance problems and it's not that impressive post inventions and post incarnates. The "overpowered" argument is old and all but moot. That said my Incarnate defender is a cold who is already soft-capped so she wouldn't get much from this idea other than some HP.
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When someone doesnt' need to **** around with IOs, dump a bunch of money into them or "play the market" and could, if able to self buff, reach those levels WELL before being able to join the Incarnate Farms, no, it's not old or moot.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Empathy is the best example of any balance problems and it's not that impressive post inventions and post incarnates. The "overpowered" argument is old and all but moot.
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No it's still moot. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
When someone doesnt' need to **** around with IOs, dump a bunch of money into them or "play the market" and could, if able to self buff, reach those levels WELL before being able to join the Incarnate Farms, no, it's not old or moot.
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Trying to wave away Inventions is beyond silly. But they SUPPORT this suggestion they don't detract from it. Allowing defenders the ability to aid themselves evens the playing field with those who have used Inventions to do the same thing.
For example, everyone likes to toss out Empathy, but let's take poor Force Field as an example.
A Force Field defender gets 23.4% defense to all but psi from being able to buff themselves. That's it. Everything else is either already available to them solo. Yes, that 23.4% gets them very close to being soft-capped, but so what? Everybody and their uncle is soft-capped these days. Ask Arcanaville how powerful being soft-capped is without some sort of heal. Given the obvious low numbers of people that use that powerset in normal play, why not give it more incentives.
Saying, "well they can do that with SOs" I still say, "So what?" The fact is a blaster can do it with a few hundred million of influence (supplemented by selective A-merits purchases) but will do conservatively 2x as much damage. The defender will NEVER do as much damage as that blaster. There's no amount of damage buffs in the system that's going to get them beyond the average buff of Defiance.
Another reason to allow this is simply fairness. Defenders aren't equal in the lack of ability in using their powers. Several defenders get full benefit from every power their have including Traps and Trick Arrow. Others get the full benefit from every power except one: Radiation (just the rez), Dark (just the rez), Storm. Among those remaining, it's not clear at all how overpowered it would be except for Empathy.
Force Field - See above
Kinetics - They get speed boost and increase density
Cold - They get the shields and Frostworks
Sonic - They get the shields, better mez protection and the -res aura
Empathy - Gets Fort, their heals, Clear Mind and Adrenalin Boost
Yeah, so there's some nice benefit there for a few sets. But that's corrective IMO. Traps, Radiation and Dark are well known to be extremely powerful solo and only missing the rez at worst is hardly a great burden.
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EG, what point are you trying to make here? Why does the playing field have to be even?
Defenders solo just fine, some more easily than others. Just like every other AT. I see more broadcast for support toons, not we need more scrappers or more khelds, etc. Plus the devs changed the defender inherent. So defenders are pretty well off in my book. If you can proove defenders can't do the content of the game on normal settings, then I agree with you 1000% something like this should be considered. If you are thinking that my emp def should solo +4\+8 like my MM's, I disagree. IME, people ask for one of my def (or corr) before any of my MM's.
Plus two more points, players would be screaming for self buffing on the other AT's like controllers, MM's, and corruptors. How would that be balanced?
And status protection would be completely unfair. My emp or kin defenders would be running around laughing while my dark or cold defenders would be held/immob/etc.
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That the stated idea would have many positive effects and not nearly as many negatives as its made out to have. I don't even particularly care whether its implemented but I feel the arguments here don't adequately address the issue.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
EG, what point are you trying to make here?
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| Why does the playing field have to be even? |
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| Defenders solo just fine, some more easily than others. Just like every other AT. |
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| I see more broadcast for support toons, not we need more scrappers or more khelds, etc. Plus the devs changed the defender inherent. So defenders are pretty well off in my book. If you can proove defenders can't do the content of the game on normal settings, then I agree with you 1000% something like this should be considered. If you are thinking that my emp def should solo +4\+8 like my MM's, I disagree. IME, people ask for one of my def (or corr) before any of my MM's. |
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| Plus two more points, players would be screaming for self buffing on the other AT's like controllers, MM's, and corruptors. How would that be balanced? |
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| And status protection would be completely unfair. My emp or kin defenders would be running around laughing while my dark or cold defenders would be held/immob/etc. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
EG, I still don't think we are talking the same thing.
I think that those few negatives would greatly outweigh the positives. And you brought up an even playing field, so asking for more details.
As for just like every other AT, my point was that within every AT, there are powersets on both ends of the spectrum. My ice tanks solos differently from a stone or fire tank. My WP brute was vastly different than my EA brute. My dark def was more powerful than my emp defender, but both could solo.
And this applies to level speed too.
Well, I guess we will see this differently.
The OP needs to change tactics on teams so that they're actually supporting rather than trying to mix it up over their heads and die a lot.
Soloing, the OP needs a second build which ignores the other-only buffs and focus on the self buff, foe debuffs, and damage.
Or, the OP needs to switch to Corrupters.
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I've heard that the tank-mage justification for no self-buffing or healing many times, but I can't put any credence in it. If defender self-buffing were that overwhelming, we'd be prohibited from making teams of 3 or more defenders. If defenders buffing defenders is working-as-intended, defenders buffing themselves can't be so terrible.
The whole game though, as far as I know, contains no instance of single-target buff that can be applied to allies or to oneself. So I suspect the true, underlying reason for the lack of self-buffs of this sort is purely code related. Changing it probably would entail more work than can be justified. Of course, there are excellent non-single target buffs and heals that some defenders enjoy right now. This does relate too, of course, to the long-standing debate about click buffs versus some hypothetical PBAoE-style replacement.
Now with the incarnate destiny buffs providing superb self (and team!) bonuses, there is even less weight for the balance argument.
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Having to rely on *others* for those buffs isn't an issue. It's part of the point of teaming. Making each other stronger, covering weaknesses and the like. |
Originally Posted by halfflat
I've heard that the tank-mage justification for no self-buffing or healing many times, but I can't put any credence in it. If defender self-buffing were that overwhelming, we'd be prohibited from making teams of 3 or more defenders.
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And yes, the incarnate buffs are powerful, etc, etc, etc. And you can only get them after you've hit 50, run trials and jumped through the required hoops to get them - and they don't exemplar down very far, *and* there's specific content designed around them.
I like to play Defenders (my main is an FFer). I like to PUG and I like to solo.
In teams, I am the weakest member and I die first and often.
When I solo, pre-Incarnate I had to use the lowest settings and it is still painfully slow for those below 40.
Vigilance is a great help, but its still not very fun to solo. I know Defenders are meant to be on teams, but teams are not always available. So I HAVE to solo.
In CoH, the ATs are given the ability to help each other, but the non-support classes are able to solo relatively easily.
My point is, I don't think the support classes should be FORCED to rely on others. We should be able to target ourselves for buffs/heals.
There is no logic to not allowing us to target ourselves. Just as the other classes still team, despite the ability to solo, the support classes will still get more benefit from teaming than soloing.
If the support classes could target ourselves, quality of soloing would be improved and less frustrating.
If support classes could target ourselves, we'd spend less time standing around trying not to get aggro in teams.
If support classes could target ourselves, we could PARTICIPATE more in teams, instead of feeling like bots chasing people who are actually having fun.
If support classes could target ourselves, we might do enough damage in Incarnate trials to get the rewards we need.
It feels like support classes are being punished by not being allowed to use most of our own powers. In fact, that's the explanation the Defender forum gave for it's mythology of City of Heroes.
I know there are other games, like the Industry Leader, who prefer the holy trinity of ATs. Maybe that's why the classic Dungeons and Dragons cleric was changed to pure supportive priest healers. But City of Heroes has a funner, more free-wheeling style of play. We don't need to hunt down a Stone tank for average missions. We can take whoever wants to play and work together.
I would ask that the theory behind not allowing support classes to target themselves be rethought. If there are good reasons for it, feel free to tell me why.
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