I think the Empath badge should still be set at 1 billion HPs healed like it was before Issue 13.
I think the Immortal badge should still be set at 1 billion HPs damage like it was before Issue 16.
I think the Leader badge should still be set at 2 billion Influence like it was before Issue 16.
I think the Illusionist badge should still be set at 500 summoned Illusionists like it was before Issue 16.
I think the Zookeeper badge should still be set at 10,000 Rikti Monkeys like it was before Issue 5.
I think the Back from the Future badge should still be set at 1,000 Pillboxes like it was before Issue 16.
I think the Fabricator badge should still be set at 10,000 crafted items like it was before Issue 16.
I earned -all- of these badges back when they were set at their original values.
The point is that the Devs don't seem to have any problem with the idea of "devaluing" badges over time. All my effort to get those original badges doesn't really matter at this point. The game evolves and it is what it is.
Likewise I earned all the original no-death Master badges back before Issue 20. Obviously as time goes on and we get more powerful via Incarnate abilities those no-death Masters are going to become easier and easier. Sure on some level that kind of sucks, but at least you know when you got them for yourself. Ultimately I don't have a problem with older content getting easier as long as the Devs are able to continue giving us newer content that'll be even more challenging.
Basically, I would not hold my breath that your suggestion will be implemented. *shrugs*
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I'm still bitter about the Zookeeper badge 
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Out of all the badges I listed the nerfing of the Zookeeper badge from 10,000 down to 1,000 was probably the most "unnecessary" badge reduction ever made.|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
I'm still bitter about the Zookeeper badge
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To put it in perspective there was reasonable mathematical evidence to suggest that a 1 billion HP Empath would've taken the average player 10 YEARS of DAILY playing to earn without farming it. Clearly that was always set way too stupidly high. On the other hand killing 10,000 Rikti monkeys is by comparison very easy to do. Even at 10,000 it was far from being the hardest Defeat badge in the game. A dedicated badger can currently get 10,000 Rikti Monkeys in a few hours if you hunt them in the right places.
But like I said before the Devs in general don't seem to have any problem making many badges "easier" to get whether justified or not. I enjoy the fact that I earned the Master badges back when they were "hard" to get. Sure they are easier to get now, but that doesn't really upset me too much. I'm willing to have some badges devalued than to have a situation where a billion HP Empath never gets fixed.
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Oh, I agree entirely, it was only that they changed the requirements for Zookeeper changed about 2 weeks after I'd spent hours on Monkey Island with my Ice Tank to earn it 
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Weren't Immortal and Leader adjusted in ish 13 along with Empath and assorted other badges, or did my memory skip a beat? |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think the Empath badge should still be set at 1 billion HPs healed like it was before Issue 13.
I think the Immortal badge should still be set at 1 billion HPs damage like it was before Issue 16. I think the Leader badge should still be set at 2 billion Influence like it was before Issue 16. I think the Illusionist badge should still be set at 500 summoned Illusionists like it was before Issue 16. I think the Zookeeper badge should still be set at 10,000 Rikti Monkeys like it was before Issue 5. I think the Back from the Future badge should still be set at 1,000 Pillboxes like it was before Issue 16. I think the Fabricator badge should still be set at 10,000 crafted items like it was before Issue 16. I earned -all- of these badges back when they were set at their original values. The point is that the Devs don't seem to have any problem with the idea of "devaluing" badges over time. All my effort to get those original badges doesn't really matter at this point. The game evolves and it is what it is. Likewise I earned all the original no-death Master badges back before Issue 20. Obviously as time goes on and we get more powerful via Incarnate abilities those no-death Masters are going to become easier and easier. Sure on some level that kind of sucks, but at least you know when you got them for yourself. Ultimately I don't have a problem with older content getting easier as long as the Devs are able to continue giving us newer content that'll be even more challenging. Basically, I would not hold my breath that your suggestion will be implemented. *shrugs* |
Also, yes the No Death Mo runs can be easier with Incarnates on the team, but that does not in anyway guarantee a win. Things that can go wrong include but not limited to:
1. People on the team not following directions
2. Someone on the team suddenly has an attack of terminal stupidity and rushes into the AV's on their squishy non-tank/brute.
3. AV gets a lucky shot in that delivers two types of damage at once, thus getting past the "no one shot" code.
4. Someone lags and disconnects and comes back dead somehow (it's happened)
5. On STF GW nails someone with her mag 100000000000 level hold.
6. Someone on the team with unmitigated arrogance who would rather stand around and point fingers at other players over how he/she feels that the other players do not build their characters to his/her standards rather then respecting the fact that everyone pays for their own account and has the right to build their alts as they see fit.
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They reduced Empath about a month after I finally got the original 1 billion HP version. For a long time I jokingly suspected that Positron did that specifically to spite me because I had given him a lot of direct personal grief about it here in these forums. I guess I'll never know the actual truth behind the timing of that. |
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Oh, I agree entirely, it was only that they changed the requirements for Zookeeper changed about 2 weeks after I'd spent hours on Monkey Island with my Ice Tank to earn it
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Chalk it up as an "intriguing coincidence" |
Originally Posted by Lothic
They reduced Empath about a month after I finally got the original 1 billion HP version. For a long time I jokingly suspected that Positron did that specifically to spite me because I had given him a lot of direct personal grief about it here in these forums. I guess I'll never know the actual truth behind the timing of that.
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A couple of those badges were actually nerfed TWICE in separate issues.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Weren't Immortal and Leader adjusted in ish 13 along with Empath and assorted other badges, or did my memory skip a beat?
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Their current values reflect the multiple reductions.
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Hm, odd. I remember ish 13 as the "badge readjustment" issue. My MM logged in and dinged Empath immediately after the servers came up and about six alts dinged immortal that day. Can't recall a second adjustment, but ah well.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
A couple of those badges were actually nerfed TWICE in separate issues.
Their current values reflect the multiple reductions. |
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Well for example the Empath badge was first reduced to 100 million from 1 billion in Issue 13 then finally reduced down to 10 million in Issue 16. Ultimately it doesn't matter that much for the purposes of this thread but there have been badges which have been reduced more than once.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Hm, odd. I remember ish 13 as the "badge readjustment" issue. My MM logged in and dinged Empath immediately after the servers came up and about six alts dinged immortal that day. Can't recall a second adjustment, but ah well.
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Very true. Today, I was on a team that attempted a MoSTF. The team mostly had incarnates. | Also, yes the No Death Mo runs can be easier with Incarnates on the team, but that does not in anyway guarantee a win. Things that can go wrong include but not limited to: |
We were doing very well ... I was the lead tanker ... until we got to the Dr. Aeon room. I fired off the temp power. He became vulnerable. We poured in ... and he suddenly became non-vulnerable and resistant to everything! Amidst this chaos, a controller died. Had this not happened, Dr. Aeon would've died before the controller did.
(Ultimately, it ended up not mattering, as there was another death when we pulled Mako and Scirroco at the same time. The attempt ended with 2 deaths.)
So easier? Yes. But that's still no guarantee. On the plus side, it now opens up those badges to a wider variety of ATs and powersets.
Don't worry, I'm pretty sure that the devs will nerf the "Master of" requirements in i21 so that you can't use any incarnate powers.
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To be honest, I would view such an action as.......a mistake. These are not "temp powers" but powers that we are earning via the trials. |
Originally Posted by Citizen_Razor
Don't worry, I'm pretty sure that the devs will nerf the "Master of" requirements in i21 so that you can't use any incarnate powers.
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It was one thing to remove the nukes from CoP, and it sets a bad precedent for future power nerfing during events but to say that we can't get Mo badges unless we don't use the incarnate powers will likely not go over that well.
They didn't nerf the benefit of having the Alpha Incarnate unlocked for Master runs after Issue 19.
I really don't see why they would nerf other Incarnate powers during Mo-runs either.
I think it's clear that the Devs are simply going to allow previous content to become "easier" for Incarnates to do. They are going to be giving us other new Incarnate content that will challenge us in the future. They no longer need the original no-death Master runs to serve as the "top-end" challenge of the game.
The fact that the latest Master badges have moved away from the no-death format shows us that the Devs have decided that was a little too harsh a requirement to begin with. I suspect that instead of removing the no-death requirement completely from the game they decided to simply let those runs be easier with Incarnate powers as a reasonable compromise.
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I think you should remember this is a game.
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Originally Posted by Willow21
I think Incarnate ablitlies should be turned off when running any Master Runs that arent assoicated with incarnate abilitys just like temps. This is telling those of us who worked extra hard to get these badges that our efforts werent worth it.
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I would be in favor of the devs changing the TFs that award the classic Mo badges so that they are in line with the new Mo Badges. Not sure how many changes would be required. One badge could be awarded by defeating the Phalanx without killing any of the bots. Another could be don't defeat the Flyer in the STF. Another could be defeat the Future Phalanx on the ground in the LRSF. No deaths make for very irritable TFs.
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As I implied before I suspect that the Devs have decided not to give us any more no-death Masters because they've also come to the conclusion that they tend to make players "irritable".|
Originally Posted by starphoenix
I would be in favor of the devs changing the TFs that award the classic Mo badges so that they are in line with the new Mo Badges. Not sure how many changes would be required. One badge could be awarded by defeating the Phalanx without killing any of the bots. Another could be don't defeat the Flyer in the STF. Another could be defeat the Future Phalanx on the ground in the LRSF. No deaths make for very irritable TFs.
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But by the same token I think that instead of getting rid of that requirement completely they've decided on a compromise solution which directly involves the Incarnate powers. With Incarnate powers those original no-death Master runs are going to be arguably easier to accomplish in the long run. What's the point of getting rid of the "no-death" requirement if that requirement is no longer quite so annoying as it used to be? I consider this a fairly reasonable solution for those on both sides of the love/hate no-death Masters requirement issue.
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I think everyone who got Master of Statesman or Recluse in the first roughly one month should have theirs removed because they had a number of easy-mode abilities available at the time. Soft-loading the maps, starting with an already-dead teammate for Vengeance bait, and an Ouro portal that could tank for the team because it generated hate from mobs that were near it. These things were each as much of a reduction in difficulty as the Alpha level shift and the minor debuffs from Interface put together. The Ouro portal one was probably more effective than the Alpha shift and all of the other Incarnate powers thus far put together.|
Originally Posted by Willow21
I think Incarnate ablitlies should be turned off when running any Master Runs that arent assoicated with incarnate abilitys just like temps. This is telling those of us who worked extra hard to get these badges that our efforts werent worth it.
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(That was for humor's sake. I don't actually think that.)
The majority of my classic Master ofs, and Apex and Tin Mage, were done without the level shift, mind you, so it was only a factor in Lady Grey and Barracuda. I'm not even certain how much of a factor, but it certainly didn't hurt our chances. I just wanted to point out that those earliest runs were able to be done easier, as well. I don't begrudge those who used any of those techniques, and I won't begrudge anyone who got any of them with the Alpha level shift, or any of the new Incarnate abilities. I know exactly how difficult my runs of these were, and that's enough of a sense of accomplishment to me that I don't have to worry about if someone else had an easier time of it.
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Wasn't there also a short period of time when people could make Master runs at the -1 level Difficulty setting (thus setting the AVs to -1) and still get the Mo badges before it was fixed? That's yet another "reason" why some peoples' Master badges should be stripped... (Also for the same humor's sake your post was written.)|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
I think everyone who got Master of Statesman or Recluse in the first roughly one month should have theirs removed because they had a number of easy-mode abilities available at the time. Soft-loading the maps, starting with an already-dead teammate for Vengeance bait, and an Ouro portal that could tank for the team because it generated hate from mobs that were near it. These things were each as much of a reduction in difficulty as the Alpha level shift and the minor debuffs from Interface put together. The Ouro portal one was probably more effective than the Alpha shift and all of the other Incarnate powers thus far put together.
(That was for humor's sake. I don't actually think that.) The majority of my classic Master ofs, and Apex and Tin Mage, were done without the level shift, mind you, so it was only a factor in Lady Grey and Barracuda. I'm not even certain how much of a factor, but it certainly didn't hurt our chances. I just wanted to point out that those earliest runs were able to be done easier, as well. I don't begrudge those who used any of those techniques, and I won't begrudge anyone who got any of them with the Alpha level shift, or any of the new Incarnate abilities. I know exactly how difficult my runs of these were, and that's enough of a sense of accomplishment to me that I don't have to worry about if someone else had an easier time of it. |
Basically I tend to think those who dwell on the idea that certain badges are being "devalued" need to take a step back and get a bigger-picture perspective on the matter. The game is always going to evolve regardless. *shrugs*
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Yes there was the -1 bug, plus the Ouro portal, starting with a dead teammate for Veng, and low spawning the maps. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Wasn't there also a short period of time when people could make Master runs at the -1 level Difficulty setting (thus setting the AVs to -1) and still get the Mo badges before it was fixed? That's yet another "reason" why some peoples' Master badges should be stripped... (Also for the same humor's sake your post was written.)
Basically I tend to think those who dwell on the idea that certain badges are being "devalued" need to take a step back and get a bigger-picture perspective on the matter. The game is always going to evolve regardless. *shrugs* |
I always laughed about the -1 bug since you are still fighting some amped up AV's even at -1. A -1 Reichsman in Khan/Cuda doesn't strike me as much easier then normal setting Reichsman, but that's just me.
Quote:
Granted the -1 versions of many AVs aren't really all that much easier than the +0 versions. Still it's yet another point to quibble about as to whether one person's Master badge is more "valuable" than another person's. That was the key question of this thread despite the fact I still argue it's -not- a reasonable point to worry about in the long run. |
Originally Posted by Nericus
Yes there was the -1 bug, plus the Ouro portal, starting with a dead teammate for Veng, and low spawning the maps.
I always laughed about the -1 bug since you are still fighting some amped up AV's even at -1. A -1 Reichsman in Khan/Cuda doesn't strike me as much easier then normal setting Reichsman, but that's just me. |
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Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think the Empath badge should still be set at 1 billion HPs healed like it was before Issue 13.
I think the Immortal badge should still be set at 1 billion HPs damage like it was before Issue 16. I think the Leader badge should still be set at 2 billion Influence like it was before Issue 16. I think the Illusionist badge should still be set at 500 summoned Illusionists like it was before Issue 16. I think the Zookeeper badge should still be set at 10,000 Rikti Monkeys like it was before Issue 5. I think the Back from the Future badge should still be set at 1,000 Pillboxes like it was before Issue 16. I think the Fabricator badge should still be set at 10,000 crafted items like it was before Issue 16. I earned -all- of these badges back when they were set at their original values. The point is that the Devs don't seem to have any problem with the idea of "devaluing" badges over time. All my effort to get those original badges doesn't really matter at this point. The game evolves and it is what it is. Likewise I earned all the original no-death Master badges back before Issue 20. Obviously as time goes on and we get more powerful via Incarnate abilities those no-death Masters are going to become easier and easier. Sure on some level that kind of sucks, but at least you know when you got them for yourself. Ultimately I don't have a problem with older content getting easier as long as the Devs are able to continue giving us newer content that'll be even more challenging. Basically, I would not hold my breath that your suggestion will be implemented. *shrugs* |
Have to agree with Lothic on this one. Fact is if the Devs lowered a badge requirement it was either because they realized how difficult it was to obtain OR someone here complained enough to get it changed... My vote would be on the 2nd of those options.
Sure Masters of runs will get easier as our powers grow but that's the nature of the game. I have numerous character I WANTED TF Commander on and so I suffered through the 2+ hours of the Old Positron TF before it was changed. I'm not asking them to do away with the new TF and force everyone to do the old one.. Fact is I'm happy my newer characters can get the badge and work toward TF Commander without that long drawn out boring nightmare (Now fix Doc Q lol).
There are countless other advantages we have now that anyone leveling a few years ago would have kilked to have. Players leveling prior to May 2007 would have loved to have the added advantages of the IO system.. not just for the added power but the increase in wealth that resulted from Wentworth and the Black Market becoming a part of the game. And tghen in November of that same year we got our first taste of Purple recipe drops... Back in January 2007 just how many people were soloing GMs? I know Blasters that do it now. Hey I earned the right to create Hero and Villain Epics by taking a character to 50 level NOT 20.. still think it was more of a reward that when than it is now but I don't begrudge anyone that has a VEAT now simply by getting a character to 20 level.
With 4 new powers to use I am wondering how easy the APEX and Tin Mage TFs have become to accomplish and even to get the MO badges on. My badger still needs the Dodger badge to complete both of those. As new issues unfold things will continue to change and sure those older 45-50 level Tf will get easier and easier. WHY do you think they are creating new content with 54 level opponents standard? Face the fact we are incarnates and every power we earn is one step closer to making us Demi-Gods .. Stuff should get easier for us. If not the question is.. WHAT are those villains taking cause I want some of THAT!
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Quote:
Wasn't that the 50,000 kills in AE test mode badge?
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Originally Posted by Ullikummis
All the Ulli ever wanted was his Virtual Slayer badge back.... (and all the cookies in the world)
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Quote:
Yep, it was one of those "evil grindy AE" badges that I had done just a couple of weeks after it was introduced. Yep, a badge that only took a couple of weeks to finish was definitely far too "grindy" to be left in the game. Oh well, that's a tangent better left for another thread. |
Originally Posted by Nericus
Wasn't that the 50,000 kills in AE test mode badge?
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I think Incarnate ablitlies should be turned off when running any Master Runs that arent assoicated with incarnate abilitys just like temps. This is telling those of us who worked extra hard to get these badges that our efforts werent worth it.