Help with IO sets and game mechanics
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-15 14:24 in Player Questions
http://www.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
http://www.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defense
http://www.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Resistance_(Mechanics)
http://www.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
1. 45% defense is the soft-cap against even-level enemies. You may want more defense if you are fighting higher level enemies (they have a higher base tohit), and you may want more if you are facing enemies that debuff defense.
Don't look at the set bonus listing for your total details. There's another window called "View Totals", the button is near the powerset list, near "X slots left". There's two tabs there with all your details.
In-game you can look at your combat attributes for your total details. On your enhancement tray, click Powers, then click Combat Attributes. You can open and close each section, and if you right click on an attribute, you can monitor it, which opens up a little window with up to ten details at a time. I like to monitor current HP/end, inf, last hit chance, and then various applicable little stats (damage buff, recharge bonuses, resistance/defense amounts on characters with resistance or defense, etc.)
2. Resistance and defense types do not mix. Resistance types only resist that particular type (smashing resistance resists smashing damage, but not lethal damage, etc.) Defense types only resist that particular type (smashing defense deflects smashing attacks; if an attack is flagged "fire, smashing", YES, it DOES apply; if an attack is flagged "fire, lethal", no, it does not apply). Defense uses the highest applicable number---if you have 5% smashing defense, 25% fire defense, and 2% AoE defense and are hit by a Fireball (Fire, Smashing, AoE), it uses the 25% fire defense.
3. Damage resistance is just that: you are reducing the amount of damage you take, but you are actually hit. Defense deflects the damage; you aren't hit at all.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
Quote:
Mids does not always have toggle powers on so I suspect when you looked at the builds in question certain key powers were turned off. It's hard to say for sure without knowing the build in question however.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
1.) I understand the concept behind the soft-cap in theory, but sometimes I have trouble with it in practice. For instance, +45 defense is supposed to be the vs attack soft cap but I have seen builds posted that were supposedly soft-capped to smashing and lethal damage, but when I look at the bonuses in mid's it says just over 10% bonus for each. Is there something else that goes into it that I'm missing out on?
|
Quote:
| 2.) I am having trouble figuring out how to know what a builds' overall resistance/defense is actually at, with some sets giving specific bonuses (smashing, toxic, etc) and other sets giving general bonuses (aoe, ranged, melee.) How would I go about calculating the totals? Is one taken into account while the other is calculated, and either way what is the best way to make a well-rounded and properly functional build with all these factors taken into account? Obviously priority depends on extenuating circumstances/personal preference, but what is the best way to determine what direction to take these bonuses in and how to calculate their final value in relevance to one another? |
1. Softcap all positional defenses (popular with Super Reflexes and Shield Defense)
2. Softcap all typed defenses except for psi (popular with Stone Armor and Invulnerability)
3. Softcap one positional defense, usually ranged (popular with ranged characters lacking defense powers)
4. Softcap two typed defenses, generally smashing and lethal (popular with resistance based armor sets and ranged characters who have a S/L defense epic power)
Softcapping all 10 defenses is technically possible for a few characters (a Traps Defender is a good example) but is very rarely done.
Quote:
| 3.) I have trouble understanding the mechanical difference between damage resistance and defense. Try as I might, I just can't wrap my head around it. I just know that when my Warshade is fully eclipsed, his health will still sometimes go down until I eat a couple of purple inspirations, and then it will stay perfectly full. |
The basic version is that 1% defense will reduce your chances of getting hit between 1% (against a +0 minion) to 1.7% (against a +4 boss) if it matches the vector of the attack. Conversely 1% resistance will reduce the damage you take by 1% if the attack uses that damage type.
For more information see the wiki:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Resist...28Mechanics%29
Quote:
I'm right with you on a lot of these. If you want to get a headache, track down the Arcannaville explanation of defense. I know it is amazing and awesome, but just way over my head.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I've been playing for just over 3 months and I'd like to think that I'm picking up on most things at a pretty decent rate, but sometimes I still find myself puzzled by the more 'technical' side of the game. I am a professional forum lurker which may (or may not
 ) be working in my favor, but I still have some specific questions that might require you to speak to me as if I am a child. |
Quote:
| 1.) I understand the concept behind the soft-cap in theory, but sometimes I have trouble with it in practice. For instance, +45 defense is supposed to be the vs attack soft cap but I have seen builds posted that were supposedly soft-capped to smashing and lethal damage, but when I look at the bonuses in mid's it says just over 10% bonus for each. Is there something else that goes into it that I'm missing out on? |
Also there are two kinds of bonus: Positional (AoE, Melee, Ranged) and Typed (Fire, Smashing, Lethal, Cold, Psi, etc). In general positional is harder to achieve and smashing/lethal (S/L) accounts for about 70% of all attacks in the game. So when people have a build that just can't make it 45% to all positions, instead going just s/l (equal to only melee or only ranged in difficulty) gets the most bang for the buck.
Quote:
| 2.) I am having trouble figuring out how to know what a builds' overall resistance/defense is actually at, with some sets giving specific bonuses (smashing, toxic, etc) and other sets giving general bonuses (aoe, ranged, melee.) How would I go about calculating the totals? Is one taken into account while the other is calculated, and either way what is the best way to make a well-rounded and properly functional build with all these factors taken into account? Obviously priority depends on extenuating circumstances/personal preference, but what is the best way to determine what direction to take these bonuses in and how to calculate their final value in relevance to one another? |
Quote:
| 3.) I have trouble understanding the mechanical difference between damage resistance and defense. Try as I might, I just can't wrap my head around it. I just know that when my Warshade is fully eclipsed, his health will still sometimes go down until I eat a couple of purple inspirations, and then it will stay perfectly full. |
Resistance is reducing the damage a hit will cause.
Similar end result in terms of survivability, but massively different experience in play.
So lets say you have 500 hit points. And there are 5 enemies that are attacking you. Each hit will cause 100 damage and they attack every 5 seconds.
First off, 50% of all enemy attacks miss if you have no defense at all. So at a base, before any of your own stats come into play, you are looking at 250 damage every 5 seconds, and so you are dead in 10 seconds if you have no defense and no resistance.
Let's say you have 25% defense. Instead of 50% of attacks missing, 75% will. Now you're only taking 125 damage per 5 seconds and you'll last 20 seconds.
If you have 25% resistance those hits only land for 75 damage, not 100. But you still get hit 50% of the time. So you're taking 187 damage per 5 seconds. Better than nothing, but not as good as 25% defense.
Some people say 2 points of resistance=1 point of defense. that's total BS, but it is true defense mitigates more damage than resistance in general. There are subtle factors at play:
nearly every lethal attack in the game debuffs defense, so it can be taken away. Fight the romans to see this in action brutally. All mez powers (holds, sleeps, stuns) have to hit to mez you, so a resist-based character has no protection against them and a high defense character is nearly immune. When a defense character gets hit, they get hit for the full damage, sometimes resulting in an insta-kill. resitance-based characters usually have time to pop a heal of some kind. This comes up a lot with toxic and psi damage. Some attacks are not positional and still hit for a lot of damage. A pure defense build is in a lot of trouble against those.
So the ideal is layered protection blending both of them at once. This is one of the secrets to how many tankers are so awesomely survivable.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Wow thanks everyone for the great replies!
Quote:
This I was not aware of, thanks for bring it to my attention. | Don't look at the set bonus listing for your total details. There's another window called "View Totals", the button is near the powerset list, near "X slots left". There's two tabs there with all your details. |
I do use the combat attributes to monitor several things already but that won't help me when making a build ahead of time. Quote:
| Defense uses the highest applicable number---if you have 5% smashing defense, 25% fire defense, and 2% AoE defense and are hit by a Fireball (Fire, Smashing, AoE), it uses the 25% fire defense. |
Quote:
| Mids does not always have toggle powers on so I suspect when you looked at the builds in question certain key powers were turned off. It's hard to say for sure without knowing the build in question however. |
Quote:
|
1. Softcap all positional defenses (popular with Super Reflexes and Shield Defense) 2. Softcap all typed defenses except for psi (popular with Stone Armor and Invulnerability) 3. Softcap one positional defense, usually ranged (popular with ranged characters lacking defense powers) 4. Softcap two typed defenses, generally smashing and lethal (popular with resistance based armor sets and ranged characters who have a S/L defense epic power) |
Quote:
Actually my advice there would be to build for Smashing and Lethal Defense. Smashing and Lethal defense will protect against the majority of melee attacks as well as a decent number of non-melee attacks. The problem with melee defense alone is that most enemies will open with a ranged or AoE attack which it is useless against. S/L defense isn't perfect, you might get a Jekyll and Hyde feeling where you find yourself really tough against some groups (such as Council) but really vulnerable to others (such as Carnival). However for a character with no natural defenses in melee range it is generally the best option. The other advantage is that you can, if you want, pick up Mace mastery for a S/L defense shield (this will require you to switch sides and run a patron arc to unlock it though).
|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The build I'm working on specifically right now is one for a Rad/Son defender to be used almost strictly for soloing. Most people's builds seem to favor ranged defense, but being solo I need to keep the groups close to the anchor and the best way to do that is to stand right next to him... So, I'm assuming I should build for melee defense? I tried building for AOE AND Melee on top of the recharge bonuses I needed for perma hasten>AM and the set bonus numbers were not where I wanted them. Then again, at the time I was under the impression that in order to be soft capped I needed to get the set bonuses to 45%, so I'm glad I posted this.
|
I was planning on going with electricity mastery and taking charged armor which is +res to smashing,lethal, and energy. Another thing I like about it is power sink as a means to gain end since AM doesn't always sustain toggles optimally. Thunderstrike is a good perk, too.
Would it be possible to 'layer' the protection in this scenario as Gavin suggested earlier in the thread? I would prefer to be able to survive just as well against most enemy groups. Another thing-- I'm not sure if it would make sense to plan ahead of time for incarnate powers, since I don't want to be gimped while I work towards them. This is sort of off-topic since it's more relevant to general strategy than game mechanics but it will ultimately effect what set bonuses I aim for, ie: Planning around Destiny and Alpha buffs.
Quote:
It's hard to do with your style of play if you want the softcap. The problem is that if you want even survivability against most groups then you really need to either softcap all defenses of one category (either all positionals or all types) or softcap Ranged defense (with decent AoE defense) and stay out of melee.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Would it be possible to 'layer' the protection in this scenario as Gavin suggested earlier in the thread? I would prefer to be able to survive just as well against most enemy groups. Another thing-- I'm not sure if it would make sense to plan ahead of time for incarnate powers, since I don't want to be gimped while I work towards them. This is sort of off-topic since it's more relevant to general strategy than game mechanics but it will ultimately effect what set bonuses I aim for, ie: Planning around Destiny and Alpha buffs.
|
The former is very hard to do without any defense in your primary/secondary and the latter is against your playstyle.
The alternative is to build up your defenses relatively evenly and accept less than the softcap.
Here's the math. We'll assume you start by taking Weave, Maneuvers and Combat Jumping. That is somewhere between 15% and 17% depending on slotting, let's assume the high end for now. Add in a Steadfast 3% and a Gaussian's set somewhere (Tactics or Aim) and you're at 22.5% to all positions. Beyond that it's hard to say without a specific build. You can probably fit in 3 Thunderstikes (3.75% ranged each) and maybe a pair of Aegis sets for 4.6% AoE each. Lockdown also gives both Ranged and AoE so one or two of those. That'll get you somewhere in the 30%-35% Ranged and AoE. Melee defense however is really hard to get on ranged characters. End result you can probably get in the mid 30s for Ranged and AoE and the mid 20s for Melee but it's hard to go above that. It's hard to say more than that without a build.
As for Incarnates Barrier Destiny will help but it's not a perfect solution. The values for Barrier Core Epiphany are:
+90% RES/DEF first 10s, 32.5% next 20s, 7.5% next 30s, 5% last 60s with a recharge of 120seconds.
So it'll softcap you 25% of the time, give you 7.5% defense 25% of the time and 5% defense the remaining 50% of the time. That's also the T4 which takes a while to get (especially solo).
To be honest if you want a Defender who is softcapped to most things then Traps is the best primary.
Quote:
Enemies only gain tohit due to level if they are +6 or more to you.
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
1. 45% defense is the soft-cap against even-level enemies. You may want more defense if you are fighting higher level enemies (they have a higher base tohit)
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Higher base accuracy. Whatever.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
The only difference that the level-based accuracy makes is that an enemy with floored hit chance (when you are softcapped -- at 45% def) has a higher hit chance (specifically, 5% * acc bonus)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Do any enemies have to-hit buffs? That (and defense debuffs) would be one reason to pass the soft cap.
Quote:
A few. Not enough that you would normally worry about it. DE crystal emanators offer +100% tohit to all allied DE in the radius, so you're better off destroying the emanator than trying to build up an extra +100% defense. Other sources of +tohit that normal enemies get are much smaller, and occur rarely.|
Originally Posted by Pampl
Do any enemies have to-hit buffs?
|
The only non-incarnate content I would seriously consider getting extra +defense in order to combat critter +tohit would be facing Soldiers of Rularuu regularly. On the flip side, though, you may also want to get extra defense to combat defense debuffs, and those show up almost everywhere Lethal damage is dealt.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
So in other words, adding defense above 45% won't help against accuracy bonuses, just to-hit bonuses or to-hit debuffs.
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
The only difference that the level-based accuracy makes is that an enemy with floored hit chance (when you are softcapped -- at 45% def) has a higher hit chance (specifically, 5% * acc bonus)
|
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
I'm not sure how defense higher than 45% helps against tohit debuffs. 
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
Well, if you're Broadsword or Katana you won't have to worry as much about Parry/DA missing.
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I'm not sure how defense higher than 45% helps against tohit debuffs.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Pampl
Do any enemies have to-hit buffs?
|
Should also keep an eye on Nemesis mobs. The Lt's like to fire off "Vengeance" whenever they die, which boosts all surrounding mob's To-Hit by a good chunk.
Quote:
I play a fair number of Rads, and use this same technique. In my opinion, I'd still build for ranged def or s/l. If you want to be well rounded, I'd say ranged. Then build for AOE, and melee last. Even with no melee set bonuses you'll likely end up with ~20% melee defense depending on how you build. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The build I'm working on specifically right now is one for a Rad/Son defender to be used almost strictly for soloing. Most people's builds seem to favor ranged defense, but being solo I need to keep the groups close to the anchor and the best way to do that is to stand right next to him... So, I'm assuming I should build for melee defense? I tried building for AOE AND Melee on top of the recharge bonuses I needed for perma hasten>AM and the set bonus numbers were not where I wanted them. Then again, at the time I was under the impression that in order to be soft capped I needed to get the set bonuses to 45%, so I'm glad I posted this.
|
Then, once you're standing in a mass in melee range, you'll have your -tohit active, I would hope, and since you'll likely not be soloing a group of EB or AV, but groups of minions and Lts, your debuff should be quite effective at getting you effectively the rest of the way to softcap efficacy. Things outside of the range of your debuff will be using ranged or AOE attacks..
I know, it's not a perfect solution, but it's probably the best you're gonna get. It works pretty well for me.
Couple of misconceptions I'd like to clear up:
Quote:
Others have addressed the specifics, but to clarify, defense above 45% will not reduce the chance of being hit by enemies in the normal range people fight them (-1 to +5). Yes, even at 45%, +2 enemies have a slightly higher chance to hit you -- but no amount of additional defense can do anything about that, so you're effectively capped -- hence the term soft cap.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
1. 45% defense is the soft-cap against even-level enemies. You may want more defense if you are fighting higher level enemies (they have a higher base tohit)
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
4. Softcap two typed defenses, generally smashing and lethal (popular with resistance based armor sets and ranged characters who have a S/L defense epic power)
|
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I've been playing for just over 3 months and I'd like to think that I'm picking up on most things at a pretty decent rate, but sometimes I still find myself puzzled by the more 'technical' side of the game. I am a professional forum lurker which may (or may not
) be working in my favor, but I still have some specific questions that might require you to speak to me as if I am a child.
1.) I understand the concept behind the soft-cap in theory, but sometimes I have trouble with it in practice. For instance, +45 defense is supposed to be the vs attack soft cap but I have seen builds posted that were supposedly soft-capped to smashing and lethal damage, but when I look at the bonuses in mid's it says just over 10% bonus for each. Is there something else that goes into it that I'm missing out on?
2.) I am having trouble figuring out how to know what a builds' overall resistance/defense is actually at, with some sets giving specific bonuses (smashing, toxic, etc) and other sets giving general bonuses (aoe, ranged, melee.) How would I go about calculating the totals? Is one taken into account while the other is calculated, and either way what is the best way to make a well-rounded and properly functional build with all these factors taken into account? Obviously priority depends on extenuating circumstances/personal preference, but what is the best way to determine what direction to take these bonuses in and how to calculate their final value in relevance to one another?
3.) I have trouble understanding the mechanical difference between damage resistance and defense. Try as I might, I just can't wrap my head around it. I just know that when my Warshade is fully eclipsed, his health will still sometimes go down until I eat a couple of purple inspirations, and then it will stay perfectly full.
I'm sure there a lot more questions that will come as I receive answers but in the meantime I would really appreciate any guidance I get.