Flash Freeze sucks please make it better devs. See above comparisons and suggestions for analysis.
Thought I would elaborate on this point again 
I am level 50 ice/Psi ... I have perma haste, perma dom, perma DP ... I have softcap S/L def. I can take out 8 man groups without a problem. I kill them in moments and it just seems ludicrous that people call ice control gimp? WoW, I need to seriously try some other primaries then lol ... Maybe the point is that you have to be super IO'd to do all this and a set like earth can do it with just normal non set IO's or SOs?
Ice control/Psi is the most fun and best toon I have ever played though honestly ... except jack frost he really seems to suck and I might drop him to get fly in a few months when I get my 60 vet ...
"I have always been a fan of science fiction. It all started when my parents forced me to go to church when I was a child."
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Originally Posted by Jharber
I am level 50 ice/Psi ... I have perma haste, perma dom, perma DP ... I have softcap S/L def. I can take out 8 man groups without a problem. I kill them in moments and it just seems ludicrous that people call ice control gimp? ... except jack frost he really seems to suck and I might drop him to get fly in a few months when I get my 60 vet ...
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| Maybe the point is that you have to be super IO'd to do all this and a set like earth can do it with just normal non set IO's or SOs? |
Essentially, with perma mez protection and DP along with softcapped defense you're basically playing some mutant hybrid of a regen/sr scrapper and a psi blaster with a few ice powers tossed in for fluff. The fact that you're thinking of dropping your pet - normally one of the more important powers in a control set - only reinforces just how little ice control has to do with your character's success. I'd bet that you could clear missions just fine without a single one of your primary powers on your tray as long as you're not doing something like +4/x8 arachnos/malta/carnies/etc.
As I've said, you can paper over ice/'s flaws with IOs (and presumably incarnate powers as well, though I haven't devoted much thought to this particular combo), but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
On another note, something I've thought of for flash freeze would be to add a ~8s unenhanceable mag 3 confuse to the power (justify it with some fluff blurb about how the sudden intense cold is a shock to the enemies' systems and if disturbed they might accidentally attack their allies). Along with the other changes I'd suggested, this means you can use it solo to absorb an alpha and get in close to allow AA to take effect, and on teams even if the sleep is immediately broken they'll at least waste their alpha on each other.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
[EDIT: Couple of edits to tone.]
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It sounds like what you are saying is people are imagining that their characters don't die and the powers that contribute to that outcome. IMO that's a very bold statement and not really supported by my experience. I have other Dominators and Controllers I can compare my 3 lvl 50 Ice Control characters to. The Ice characters have some weaknesses, but also some significant strengths. Among them is something you touched on but didn't extrapolate: because AA moves with you, if the fight really does "only last a few moments" it becomes a total freebie, because you didn't waste any cast time on it. |
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
That is indeed the point. The game is supposedly balanced around SOs, and no insult intended to your character or anything but it's not ice control keeping you alive - especially since ice control's biggest strength is sustained soft control which you're not getting much benefit from if the fights only last a few moments.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Essentially, with perma mez protection and DP along with softcapped defense you're basically playing some mutant hybrid of a regen/sr scrapper and a psi blaster with a few ice powers tossed in for fluff.
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I wouldn't argue against some tweaks to Ice Control's performance, but IMO you are taking it too far.
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I didn't get that impression from Muon's post at all. He's commenting on how IOs play a big part in achieving these levels of performance and that the set should really be judged by its performance on SOs.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It sounds like what you are saying is people are imagining that their characters don't die and the powers that contribute to that outcome.
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<<shrug>> Not really here to mediate or speak for other players. The tail end of Muon's post is what really drew me here.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
On another note, something I've thought of for flash freeze would be to add a ~8s unenhanceable mag 3 confuse to the power (justify it with some fluff blurb about how the sudden intense cold is a shock to the enemies' systems and if disturbed they might accidentally attack their allies). Along with the other changes I'd suggested, this means you can use it solo to absorb an alpha and get in close to allow AA to take effect, and on teams even if the sleep is immediately broken they'll at least waste their alpha on each other.
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My suggestion would be to drop the damage component from Flash Freeze and add a -To Hit Debuff ala Bitter Ice Blast. This grants the set a way of breaking the alpha safely and extending a brief window of safety to engage at a closer range with AA. Something similar could be added to Shiver as well though I fear if the set is granted too much -To Hit the values would be made so small that it would be worth the investment.
Regardless of the how, Ice Control could gain from getting looked at again for some fine tuning, but I doubt it ever will.
Agree with SaltyHero, Ice Control could certainly do with another pass, but with Castle having gone and the current Powers Team being so quiet on the boards I'd be doubtful they'd ever get around to it.
It's also behind Gravity in the queue for Control Sets which should be looked at again, IMO.
If we had to change Ice Control, for me it would be like this:
- Buff the pet to match Earth pet's resistance (although then the other pet sets would probably ask for the same, since the Earth pet is the outlier)
- Drop Recharge on AA from 15 seconds to 3 seconds to make it easier to retoggle, possibly reduce animation time and endurance cost
- Increase knockdown chance in Ice Slick from 9% to 11% per tick to make it clearly the best "KD patch" (it is already 1% better per tick than Earthquake, several % better than Freezing Rain and the like)
However, any statement that Ice Control is so poor that a character would do just as well at by just ignoring all of the powers is completely off the rails. Ice Control is not that bad, and other sets are not that good, for that level of criticism. It may seem shocking to some people, but at one point I had Earth, Electric, Plant and Ice all at about the same level, and Ice was able to pull ahead among my favorites simply because alpha breaking is not all there is to control. I didn't play the set to 50 3 times by ignoring all of the powers.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It sounds like what you are saying is people are imagining that their characters don't die and the powers that contribute to that outcome. IMO that's a very bold statement and not really supported by my experience.
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| However, any statement that Ice Control is so poor that a character would do just as well at by just ignoring all of the powers is completely off the rails. |
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If we had to change Ice Control, for me it would be like this:
- Buff the pet to match Earth pet's resistance (although then the other pet sets would probably ask for the same, since the Earth pet is the outlier) - Drop Recharge on AA from 15 seconds to 3 seconds to make it easier to retoggle, possibly reduce animation time and endurance cost - Increase knockdown chance in Ice Slick from 9% to 11% per tick to make it clearly the best "KD patch" (it is already 1% better per tick than Earthquake, several % better than Freezing Rain and the like) |
As an aside, I think the set is not as iffy for controllers, simply because they have another set to bolster their mitigation. I'm specifically coming at this from the perspective of a dom.
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Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
Interesting suggestion. I agree that fixing Flash Freeze would be the best way to go, but I think it may be too powerful to add confuse, even if its unenhanceable.
My suggestion would be to drop the damage component from Flash Freeze and add a -To Hit Debuff ala Bitter Ice Blast. This grants the set a way of breaking the alpha safely and extending a brief window of safety to engage at a closer range with AA. Something similar could be added to Shiver as well though I fear if the set is granted too much -To Hit the values would be made so small that it would be worth the investment. |
Finally, though, I'd mostly rather use confuse because it's a *hard* control. If the -tohit is enough to cause them to miss, say, half their attacks, then we're right back to the same problem - and if it's strong enough to make them miss everything, why not just use a mez instead? I'd rather the effect be a period of actual safety, balanced by the short duration such that you have to move quickly and with precision to take advantage of it. Plus, it'd give ice/ a reason to use domination.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
ICE has some nice features. I saw your posted build. You grabbed the wrong powers.
Change these:
Powerboost
kick/tough/weave
chilling embrace
hibernate - good for only 30 secs
Shiver
Artic Air
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If we had to change Ice Control, for me it would be like this:
- Buff the pet to match Earth pet's resistance (although then the other pet sets would probably ask for the same, since the Earth pet is the outlier) - Drop Recharge on AA from 15 seconds to 3 seconds to make it easier to retoggle, possibly reduce animation time and endurance cost - Increase knockdown chance in Ice Slick from 9% to 11% per tick to make it clearly the best "KD patch" (it is already 1% better per tick than Earthquake, several % better than Freezing Rain and the like) |
If I had to change Ice Control I'd :
- Buff the pet : Not to the levels of Stoney but I'd make him a bit tougher
- Make Arctic Air get a benefit from Domination : +2.98s Confused (mag 3) (after 1 second delay) (15% chance) If in Domination Mode (this is how Bonesmasher works currently, in Domination Mode it gets 2 50% to stun checks). I've made it only 15% chance because this effect can self-stack, unlike the normal one
- Buff Ice Patch : 7.5% ToHit Debuff. Earthquake has one, I'd give patch one too, but not quite so high (since it's better at knockdown). Also allow Patch to accept -ToHit enhancements.
- Remove the -knockdown from the Holds, or drop it to around 5 seconds worth.
- Flash Freeze should be normalised as people have suggested (which allows it to become Alpha Control, although Ice Patch from cover is good at that too).
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Well, maybe buff the pet, but definitely change his horrible AI since most of the time he just stands around.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
If I had to change Ice Control I'd :
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PLEASE make AA benefit from domination ... OMG that would be excellent! ... even if Domination added +1 mag confuse it would be great to just have something extra ...
I think ice patch is fine except for the fact that we can't use it with frostbite ... I would be fine with a buff though lol ...
Yes definitely remove the KD protection from ALL aoe immobilizes!
I know flash freeze needs to be changed, it is almost useless ...
I truly do love ice control though ... GLACIER IS AWESOME! ... The best aoe hold in the game imo! ...Arctic air is amazing ... and it gets 100% better once you slot it with CC proc!
"I have always been a fan of science fiction. It all started when my parents forced me to go to church when I was a child."
This thread made me put my 21 Ice/Icy back on my active roster. Right away I was reminded why I took her off the active roster to begin with: draconian Endurance use. The set runs out of Endurance at a shocking rate. Right now I'm telling myself it'll get better with SOs. We'll see.
Aside from Endurance issues (the worst I've had on just about any character I've ever rolled) the play style does seem fun. Getting through missions at +0x2B is very doable and I've not faceplanted yet. Gotta rest after every spawn due to no Endurance, though.
Play style right now is Power Boost>Flash Freeze>Ice Slick>Block of Ice to open, then Hold more mobs as BoI recharges while using the time between BoIs to attack the held targets. Shiver is used if a Hold misses or wears off at an inconvenient time.
Flash Freeze's recharge is not a problem as I do have Hasten (probably shouldn't run it when I'm having Endurance issues, though), and the kill speed is slow enough that Flash Freeze is back up for each spawn. Yeah, Icy Assault doesn't have a ton of damage, that's for sure.
I'm leveling Earth/Earth and Electric/Electricity at the same time. Earth/Earth feels like a more solid and reliable version of Ice/Icy, though to be fair he's in his mid-30s so comparisons may not be too fair. The Electric/Electricity is still level 8 but I can already tell Endurance isn't even going to be a factor for him. Contrasts very strongly with Ice/Icy in that way.
I don't know if I'm going to stick with Ice/Icy right now, but I like the character a lot, and if I can get her past this Endurance problem, I can definitely see myself taking her to 50, and maybe even beyond.
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Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Yeah im not sure why sets with -recharge gets so high end costs. The effect isnt that good in PvE(imo).
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I think this is true only if you build in a misguided way. Your IO choices should complement your power choices. That means lots of recharge and accuracy to boost your actual powers, not just +defense. My specific build goals have been enough recharge to achieve perma mezz protection, coupled with capping to at least one defense type (preferably Ranged, supported by Slash/Lethal resistance armor and Tough). You don't "need" IOs necessarily, but they are not just a side show. They are an intricate part of building the character, and Ice Control, like any other set, responds uniquely to certain configurations. | Yes, technically you are still playing your ice control character, my point was that you *might as well* be playing some scrapper/blaster hybrid because the control set powers aren't really important anymore. That was the point of my suggestion that he could still solo without any of his primary powers - not that they're useless, but that they're no longer needed. |
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| These would be nice, but IMO they don't actually fix what needs fixing. Buffs to jack are great, he is indeed kinda bleh, but they won't fix the set. AA and ice slick are already good at what they do - buffs to them would of course not be unwelcome, but ice control is already pretty darn good at soft control. What it needs is buffs to something it *doesn't* already do well - alpha control. |
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| As an aside, I think the set is not as iffy for controllers, simply because they have another set to bolster their mitigation. I'm specifically coming at this from the perspective of a dom. |
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| Plus, it'd give ice/ a reason to use domination. |
That power is mostly what allowed me to get from level 47 to 50 in about two hours solo. Let me put it this way. What other power has no real target cap, no cast time (unless you get detoggled), makes enemies hit each other, and will reaffect enemies almost instantly if they die and rezz?
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That's exactly what the build I was referring to did. He built for defense (s/l in this case, but whatever) and recharge. In this particular case, that made his primary more or less irrelevant for most content. It wouldn't have been such a drastic effect if he hadn't been /psi, of course, but that wasn't the point.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
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| You don't "need" IOs necessarily, but they are not just a side show. They are an intricate part of building the character, and Ice Control, like any other set, responds uniquely to certain configurations. |
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| I don't think alpha control is something Ice Control is likely to get. As it is, solo, most of this is solved by corner-casting Ice Slick or racing in and popping Glacier, especially once you reach higher levels. |
Look at it this way. One guaranteed method to absorb alphas that every control set (except mind) shares is to cast their pet in the middle of the spawn. Every other set *except ice* has at least one additional way to do this - even gravity can do it with GDF (and mind, while having no pet, has plenty of other ways to absorb alphas). Ice is the *only* set that cannot reliably absorb alphas out of its own resources without using its pet (which isn't exactly a very sustainable method). It requires cooperation from the environment, specific pool powers, inspirations, or IOs. Is the sustained soft control ice has enough to make up for that severe limitation (especially since ice seems to *also* pay for it with pathetic damage)? In my opinion, no.
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That power is mostly what allowed me to get from level 47 to 50 in about two hours solo. Let me put it this way. What other power has no real target cap, no cast time (unless you get detoggled), makes enemies hit each other, and will reaffect enemies almost instantly if they die and rezz?
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I guess my question is, how long has your ice dom had the high defense, high recharge build you mentioned? It doesn't sound like you've had to deal with the issues I've been talking about in a while. My dom isn't running on SOs, but her cheap frankenslotting build certainly doesn't provide any recharge or defense. The issues with soloing are the reason she's the only one of my 50s I don't regularly pull back out to play.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
[EDIT: Clarity]
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I think we will have to agree to disagree here. For what its worth, I think you are overvaluing what defense bonuses will do for you. Having IOs does not make any powerset "more or less irrelevant for most content." You are not going to strap on IOs and go solo at x8 without additional damage mitigation. In the case of Ice Control specifically, extra defense is synergistic in the sense that it lets you traipse through melee range more easily. I apologize if I am misreading your argument, but you seem to be saying either "IOs fix everything" or "IOs boost all characters exactly equally," and I don't agree with either statement.| That's exactly what the build I was referring to did. He built for defense (s/l in this case, but whatever) and recharge. In this particular case, that made his primary more or less irrelevant for most content. It wouldn't have been such a drastic effect if he hadn't been /psi, of course, but that wasn't the point. |
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| I guess my question is, how long has your ice dom had the high defense, high recharge build you mentioned? |
In any case, the specific level range that is most difficult for me to play Ice is around 30-40, where enemies are loaded with mezzes and Dominators don't have perma-dom, and Controllers don't have Indom Will. Getting mezzed really is a serious irration, but a fixable one. I do think it's maybe a bit over the top, which is why the one major change I suggested was dropping the recharge on AA in recognition of the fact that it will get detogged.
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| Ice is the *only* set that cannot reliably absorb alphas out of its own resources without using its pet (which isn't exactly a very sustainable method). |
On the one hand, Domination does very little for Ice's control. On the other hand, Ice's traditional area of weakness is damage, and Dom secondaries are generally much better at supplying that than Controller secondaries are. And of course, Domination provides mez protection and extra endurance, which alleviate the most annoying things about Arctic Air -- which is a spectacular power, but it requires a certain playstyle and can often feel underwhelming in a teaming context because it takes time to work.
I've always had a love/hate relationship with the Ice Control power set. For a long time, an Ice/Storm controller was my favorite character. To this day, I don't think I've ever even thought of another build that is as conceptually (visually) pleasing as that combination, but it has glaring shortcomings when compared to the obvious alternatives.
Specifically, Ice Control has too much of a good thing (-recharge debuffs), and not enough of just about everything else -- hard control (or, if you prefer, Alpha mitigation), damage; even its pet is lackluster. The set is by no means gimped if you can find a way to get around, or if you simply don't care about, Ice's pathetic damage output. Certainly I'd say that Ice Doms are no more disadvantaged than Ice Controllers.
But I've always felt that the most natural point of comparison is Earth Control. Both are allegedly high-control, and factually low-damage, sets, but Earth gets a better spread of different control effects, ridiculous hard control, a much better pet, and to add insult to injury, Earth even has more opportunities to slot proc IOs. Earth Control is just flat-out better for 99% of the PvE game as currently constituted, lag and/or visual effects notwithstanding. 
It wouldn't take a lot to make Ice Control a much better set -- a revamp of Jack, perhaps a change to make Flash Freeze more like Mass Hypnosis (rendering it aggro-less, or at the very least removing the frustratingly tiny tick of damage on the effect that gives mobs an opportunity to shoot you before they fall asleep), maybe giving Shiver a smallish supplemental effect (like a damage debuff, or maybe even a damage component). Until it's given a little TLC from the Devs, Ice control will remain serviceable but underwhelming. [Edit: To be clear, I'm not necessarily advocating for all of the above; these are just off-the-cuff suggestions]
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Agreed. The great thing about adding DEF bonuses to Doms is that you're effectively layering mitigation, except instead of stacking DEF with resistance or healing, you're stacking DEF with control. Frankly, I do think that DEF does more for Ice Control than for other control sets, but that's neither here nor there; soft-capping one position or two types ain't gonna suddenly turn your ~1200 HP Dominator into an invincible Juggernaut if he doesn't also use his control powers effectively.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think we will have to agree to disagree here. For what its worth, I think you have an inflated opinion about what defense bonuses will do for you. Having IOs does not make any powerset "more or less irrelevant for most content." You are not going to strap on IOs and go solo at x8 without additional damage mitigation. In the case of Ice Control specifically, extra defense is synergistic in the sense that it lets you traipse through melee range more easily. I apologize if I am misreading your argument, but you seem to be saying either "IOs fix everything" or "IOs boost all characters exactly equally," and I don't agree with either statement.
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DEF just gives you more time to act.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Originally Posted by Obitus
But I've always felt that the most natural point of comparison is Earth Control. Both are allegedly high-control, and factually low-damage, sets, but Earth gets a better spread of different control effects, ridiculous hard control, a much better pet, and to add insult to injury, Earth even has more opportunities to slot proc IOs. Earth Control is just flat-out better for 99% of the PvE game as currently constituted, lag and/or visual effects notwithstanding.
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I agree that Earth and Ice are sister sets. My first serious Controller was an Earther, and I played him to around level 36 or so. Then I rolled an Ice sometime later. I ended up posting a rant on the boards at that time about how bad Ice was and how it didn't live up to Earth. I was going to abandon the character.
But something happened. I started paying more attention to what was going on with the powers, using Glacier more aggressively, and pushing the character into situations the Earth character kept dying. And then suddenly the Ice character was level 50, my first character to get there. And now here I am with 3 Ice Control characters at 50, and 2 Earthers, plus the Earther I am leveling up now. If everything that is said about Ice Control were true, the current Earther should be stomping the Ice's performance, but that just isn't happening, just like it didn't before once I figured out what to do.
I mean, if Ice Control suddenly gets buffed I wouldn't say no to it. God knows someone outdid themselves finding ways to make that sleep power suck. But I also think at least part of the problem is the players. The sheer number of people I see trying to use Shiver in place of Arctic Air is Exhibit A.
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I remembered this thread of yours when I posted here.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I agree that Earth and Ice are sister sets. My first serious Controller was an Earther, and I played him to around level 36 or so. Then I rolled an Ice sometime later. I ended up posting a rant on the boards at that time about how bad Ice was and how it didn't live up to Earth. I was going to abandon the character.
But something happened. I started paying more attention to what was going on with the powers, using Glacier more aggressively, and pushing the character into situations the Earth character kept dying. And then suddenly the Ice character was level 50, my first character to get there. And now here I am with 3 Ice Control characters at 50, and 2 Earthers, plus the Earther I am leveling up now. If everything that is said about Ice Control were true, the current Earther should be stomping the Ice's performance, but that just isn't happening, just like it didn't before once I figured out what to do. I mean, if Ice Control suddenly gets buffed I wouldn't say no to it. God knows someone outdid themselves finding ways to make that sleep power suck. But I also think at least part of the problem is the players. The sheer number of people I see trying to use Shiver in place of Arctic Air is Exhibit A. |
With all due respect -- and with the understanding that you didn't intend to come off this way -- I don't think your reply is quite fair. Your own personal anecdotes are obviously as valid as anyone else's, but you're painting with a rather broad brush when you ascribe mechanical complaints about Ice Control to the lack of skill of its players. I could just as easily suggest that you're playing Earth wrong, with nothing but my unverifiable anecdotal experience to back me up. That conversation leads nowhere, though. If you truly believe that Ice is superior to Earth in practice, then you ought to be able to explain why.
Heck, from what I've read of your opinions on the matter, we don't even seem to disagree all that much. I don't see you advocating for Earth buffs, so how can you argue on the one hand that Ice could use (albeit small) improvement, but on the other hand that it's superior to its closest analogue (Earth)?
I have as much experience with Ice Control as the next guy, and way more than most. I don't have any particular problem playing the set, and especially not since the advent of IOs, but I don't think it measures up very well. It should either have more (more diverse) control, or higher damage. Jack is perhaps a smaller issue, but he is rather obviously and inexplicably inferior to analogous pet powers.
None of these are pressing balance issues. Doms and Controllers aren't exactly weak ATs, after all. In the former case, the most glaring disadvantages for Ice Control are indirectly filled by Secondary/Inherent powers. I just don't see how anyone could think that having a bajillion slows is an asset, in a game where most of the combat is centered around relatively short fights. Ice Slick's knockdown and Arctic Air's confuse are obviously great assets, but the former is functionally equivalent to Earthquake, and the latter takes a bit of time to work too. (And has its own attendant issues, at least on Controllers who don't take Psi Mastery.)
Back before I-13, I could at least hang my hat on Ice's superiority in PvP, but nowadays, PvP is a ghost town and I'm pretty sure the Diminishing Returns mechanic throws Ice's slows into the crapper.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Indeed, I'm not trying to say "IOs fix everything" or "IOs boost all characters exactly equally", what I'm saying is "IOs are irrelevant to a balance discussion" and trying to given an example as to why - namely, the example of this specific case where they give such a strong benefit that the primary set becomes unimportant.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
[EDIT: Clarity]I think we will have to agree to disagree here. For what its worth, I think you are overvaluing what defense bonuses will do for you. Having IOs does not make any powerset "more or less irrelevant for most content." You are not going to strap on IOs and go solo at x8 without additional damage mitigation. In the case of Ice Control specifically, extra defense is synergistic in the sense that it lets you traipse through melee range more easily. I apologize if I am misreading your argument, but you seem to be saying either "IOs fix everything" or "IOs boost all characters exactly equally," and I don't agree with either statement.
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It's why I keep insisting that the set be evaluated in the absence of any help from IOs or specific pool/ancillary/secondary powers. Sets should stand or fall on their own merits.
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Imagine an ice dom on SOs on some RWZ mission in a rikti tunnels map, where there's nothing to hide behind if the tunnel itself doesn't have a corner within ice slick range of the target spawn. What do you do to initiate fights? Flash freeze will leave you eating an alpha at least 50% of the time in my experience. Opening with ice slick will cause you to take a roughly half alpha, which is still dangerous enough. Running in to use glacier will also have you take an alpha. Even assuming you don't end up mezzed as a result (remember, no permadom), now you're low on health and you've just barely started the fight.
Why should ice, in addition to its other shortcomings (like a lackluster pet and essentially nonexistent damage), be the *only* control set with such limited options for defusing alphas?
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Indeed, I'm not trying to say "IOs fix everything" or "IOs boost all characters exactly equally", what I'm saying is "IOs are irrelevant to a balance discussion" and trying to given an example as to why - namely, the example of this specific case where they give such a strong benefit that the primary set becomes unimportant.
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Ok, I understand. I apologize if I was too reactionary. I think we are both right in our own way.
I don't believe IOs are irrelevant. I believe that sets should be "balanced" without them, but also that when discussing the "actual" performance of a powerset that they are at least a partial consideration. It's not possible to play a powerset as the developers intended them, only as they are. I don't think developers intended Illusion Control to solo GMs. But many of them can, and that's a relevant observation to me. I still don't feel like Ice Control is in dire shape outside of IOs, but I at least see where you are arguing from.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
With all due respect -- and with the understanding that you didn't intend to come off this way -- I don't think your reply is quite fair. Your own personal anecdotes are obviously as valid as anyone else's, but you're painting with a rather broad brush when you ascribe mechanical complaints about Ice Control to the lack of skill of its players. I could just as easily suggest that you're playing Earth wrong, with nothing but my unverifiable anecdotal experience to back me up. That conversation leads nowhere, though. If you truly believe that Ice is superior to Earth in practice, then you ought to be able to explain why.
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If what I posted came across as "I'm the best Ice player ever and everyone else sucks" then you are correct, that is not what I meant to say. However, I don't really know what alternative I have available than to report my actual experiences with the set. If someone says they think Ice is weaker than Earth, but I feel like I get the same performance from both of them, I don't feel like saying that is overstepping a boundary. If I am guilty of painting with a broad brush as you describe, then I feel that so is everyone else who has said that Ice Control is unarguably one of the worst control sets. I don't feel that it's controversial to say that one's opinion of a set depends on the actual experiences you've had with it.
FWIW, I don't think Ice is "superior" to Earth Control. I think it is different, but still effective. Earth and Ice are the only two control sets that even get an every-spawn knockdown patch and a mezz patch with unbreakable mezz type (Electric gets the sleep mezz patch but it is broken easily). Ice is also one of only two sets that gets a secondary effect relevant to control (Electric being the second; the -Defense is Earth is helpful but not a "control"). The competition is not "vertical," it's "horizontal," meaning that each does its thing differently enough that it's easy to find situations where any of them are among the best or the worst.
As to the thread I posted asking whether the set needed a buff, it is worth noting that the set received a virtual one from the wide availability of mezz protection and recharge (to make it perma) that came with incarnate content.
EDIT: Also should add that Electric is as much a sister set of Ice as Earth is. Both have a secondary effect that is a form of control, both spend a deal of time in melee, both require a bit of set up time to break an alpha, and both have a somewhat questionable pet (although this is pretty much true of all the control sets except Earth and maybe Fire).
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I was referring to your comment at the end, where you said that people's complaints arise in large part from not knowing how to play the set correctly. You're obviously free to feel that way; you're obviously free to express those feelings, even -- but those feelings don't lead to a constructive or even necessarily a civil conversation.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If what I posted came across as "I'm the best Ice player ever and everyone else sucks" then you are correct, that is not what I meant to say. However, I don't really know what alternative I have available than to report my actual experiences with the set. If someone says they think Ice is weaker than Earth, but I feel like I get the same performance from both of them, I don't feel like saying that is overstepping a boundary. If I am guilty of painting with a broad brush as you describe, then I feel that so is everyone else who has said that Ice Control is unarguably one of the worst control sets. I don't feel that it's controversial to say that one's opinion of a set depends on the actual experiences you've had with it.
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My reading of it was that you didn't mean to be abrasive, that the comment in question was just a gratuitous capper to an otherwise valid description of your personal experiences.
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| FWIW, I don't think Ice is "superior" to Earth Control. I think it is different, but still effective. |
At the very least, you seemed intent to play up Ice's situational superiority, and gave no indication that you think Earth has offsetting situational superiority over Ice. I was wondering if you'd go into further detail about the situations where Earth dies easily, and Ice chugs along. (Which is why I asked you to explain why you felt Ice is superior.)
I don't think there's a lot of disagreement between us on this issue. I believe that Ice is serviceable too, or to use your word, I believe that Ice can be "effective." Ice does have a bit of a learning curve; like you, I frequently run into players who don't have Arctic Air, or even a halfway accurate idea of what the power does. It seems to be a common misconception that AA is a melee-biased analogue for Shiver, which isn't close to true.
That said, in the grand scheme of things, Ice Control is not a particularly skill-intensive set, if for no other reason than that it comes packaged with relatively forgiving ATs. It ain't no Storm Summoning. Once you a have a basic grasp of what the powers do, it's not difficult to figure out how to use them, or indeed what kind of performance you can expect from them.
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| Earth and Ice are the only two control sets that even get an every-spawn knockdown patch and a mezz patch with unbreakable mezz type (Electric gets the sleep mezz patch but it is broken easily). |
), but "unbreakable mez type" seems like a rather bizarre standard by which to judge power sets. I'm not even sure exactly what you mean by unbreakable. You list knockdown patches along with unbreakable mez as if they're two different things, and yet Ice Slick is the closest thing I can think of to an unbreakable, every-spawn mez effect in Ice Control -- and it's also a knockdown patch.Clearly unbreakable doesn't mean simply that you can attack controlled targets without fear of reprisal, because almost every set gets one of those on an every-spawn basis (or near enough to every spawn, once slotting is considered). Even Mind Control indirectly gets that on an every spawn basis at sufficient levels of recharge, because it can alternate Mass Confuse with Total Dom.
You're also probably not trying to say that somehow soft control is unresistable, because that isn't true. Knockdown-resistant mobs may be comparatively rare, but the game isn't exactly overflowing with hold-immune mobs either. Ditto slow-resistant mobs. If I had a penny for every time I gritted my teeth while playing my Ice Controller against a spawn of Warwolves, I'd be a richer man.
So anyway, could you please elaborate on the standard of comparison you're describing here? Apparently it favors Ice Control in a way I hadn't previously considered.
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| Ice is also one of only two sets that gets a secondary effect relevant to control (Electric being the second; the -Defense is Earth is helpful but not a "control"). |
Ice's overall control ability was apparently designed around what you call a secondary effect. Where Earth gets an every-spawn AoE stun, Ice gets a wide-cone slow. Where Earth gets a sturdy pet with an aggro-control effect on its attacks, Ice gets a pet with ... a slow aura.
Now, can you cherry pick a situation where all of Ice's copious and redundant slows are useful? Sure. But slow isn't even a particularly relevant stand-alone control/debuff effect to begin with through the vast majority of the game's content, because it takes a fairly long time to pay its potential dividends. You can't delay an attack that's already recharged.
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| As to the thread I posted asking whether the set needed a buff, it is worth noting that the set received a virtual one from the wide availability of mezz protection and recharge (to make it perma) that came with incarnate content. |
Uh, and wow, that's a long post. Sorry.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Do you mean the statement about people trying to use Shiver in place of Arctic Air? That wasn't meant to be a dig. Many people try to replace Arctic Air with Shiver. When Ice characters join my team, there are usually about 50% odds they don't even have AA. To me this is like a Fire Controller without Flashfire. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
I was referring to your comment at the end, where you said that people's complaints arise in large part from not knowing how to play the set correctly.
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| I hate to keep harping on wording, but what you said in your previous post implied rather heavily to me that you felt Ice is outright superior. To paraphrase: "After I figured out how to play Ice, I found myself pushing into situations with Ice that repeatedly killed my Earth character." |
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| Where Earth gets an every-spawn AoE stun, Ice gets a wide-cone slow. |
Ice Slick <----> Earthquake
Arctic Air <----> Volcanic Gasses
Glacier <----> Stalagmites
Shiver <----> Quicksand
[-Recharge, Slow] <----> [-Defense]
Jack Frost <----> Stoney
LOLFlash Freeze<---->LOLSalt Pilars
Now, you can say that "Earth's Stalagmites is up more than Ice's Glacier, that makes it better."* But Ice can say "Arctic Air is up more than Volcanic Gasses, that makes it better." Of course this isn't completely heirarchal. Volcanic Gasses is at its best when you can stand in one place for a while and Arctic is at its best when you are defeating groups faster than VG's recharge. Arctic is a confusion power that adds to your damage and VG is a hold that stacks easily. AA is endurance intensive and tends to drop when mezzed, and VG is immobile. AA can slot a ridiculously powerful Confusion proc and VG can slot damage procs. It goes on and on.
[Note that Shiver, to me, is a bit of a fringe power. I have never viewed it as a replacement for a mezz. It is basically a cone version of Quicksand, used as a utility debuff. If a preponderance of Earth trollers were skipping VG for Quicksand, I'm guessing there'd be a lot more dead Earth characters. FWIW most of my Ice characters do not keep Shiver at high levels, though it's a power I'm always a little hesitant to drop.]
I also don't see Ice's slows as redundant. What I see them as is a bonus you get just for bothering to show up. The slows are a big part of why I can often spend less time controlling than blasting at stuff. They more or less take care of themselves automatically. That said, it takes about -150% Recharge to tank a +4 enemy's recharge rate at x4 slower than normal, so it's not quite as redundant as it may seem, especially as you are leveling up.
Anyway, I think at this point we've successfully thread jacked the original intent. I didn't think the original conversation was supposed to be around whether Ice needed a buff or not but whether the OP should continue playing his/her Ice character. I say yes, its worth it, others say the set is too poor. We all have our own experiences with the set. Mine have been generally positive. The only set I have some reservations about is Gravity. If I upset anyone with my frankness, just know that I think slower than I type.
[*Addendum: I realize I am probably jumping into a pit by saying Glacier is comparable to Stalagmites due to the recharge differences in these powers. It is worth noting, however, that Earth doesn't have a standard AoE hold, having traded it for VG. Ice dropped it's "Stalagmites-like" power to get both a VG-like pulse patch and an AoE hold in one set. Glacier (like Cinders) is a monster of a power with an enormous size, covering over 1000ft more area than comparable ranged holds. It is not an "every spawn" power, but with the right build it is up every 60 seconds. I am not saying they are exactly comparable, because they aren't, but I also see this as a Seeds of Confusion <> Mass Confusion situation where the whole story is not told on a power by power basis, particularly due to Ice's debuff secondary effect.]
In every AT, ice is about control modification to the main set. If that's what you want, then good. I really dig my ice/dark tank. I really don't dig my ice/ice blaster, though some love theirs.
If they gave ice higher damage, it would desperately need to be nerfed down.