Ice/ice is a gimp combo ?

Fair enough.

It wasn't my intention to get into a power-for-power comparison. I don't believe that that leads anywhere useful, because there's a temptation to get caught up in whether this-or-that power is most appropriately compared to another -- rather than an examination of the whole set's capability. For instance, I could go on at length about why I feel that Glacier is more analogous to Volcanic Gasses than Stalagmites, but to what end?

The point I was making is that Ice is given, in your words, a utility debuff that has no purpose but to pile on the same effect Ice gets elsewhere for free, and in ridiculously large quantities. Even the pet's alleged strength is more slow, with very little else going for it.

What's fascinating to me is that the one power without an attendant slow debuff is Flash Freeze, which by its name alone would tend to imply a deep slow, and which is so pathetic otherwise that you could frankly fold Shiver into it without any fear of throwing off the over-arching balance of the set.

No, no pit. I do wonder why you keep acting like Ice Slick is more than one power though. You've already stipulated that Ice Slick is Ice's version of Earthquake, and yet here you seem to be saying that Ice Slick is also Ice's version of Volcanic Gasses. ("VG-like pulse patch")

Then you act as if having both Ice Slick's "VG-like pulse patch" and a normal AoE hold is so uniquely powerful that it's basically an end in itself. How about having Earthquake's "VG-like pulse patch" and VG itself? Volcanic Gasses, by the way, has the same monstrously large radius that Glacier does. Volcanic Gasses is not a point-blank power.

Suffice to say that I don't agree with your theory that having a typical PBAoE Hold on a 240 second timer instead of Volcanic Gasses is an advantage worth crowing about. As you say, they're different powers; you can make the argument that a Volcanic Gasses clone would be less helpful to Ice, because what Ice lacks is definitive hard control otherwise, but Earth doesn't really have that problem.

The bottom line is that no other control set that is so heavily penalized on the damage front lacks as much as Ice does for alpha mitigation. It is a very effective set over time, provided you can leverage Arctic Air consistently. No one should stop playing it purely on the basis of forum demogoguery, but there are caveats that are relevant to a new player, just as there are for many sets. For instance, Ice's heavy bias towards close-quarters combat.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Are you talking about "slow" or -Recharge? Or both? If it's -Recharge, this is a very complicated topic. Suffice it to say that tanking Recharge and keeping it tanked are two different things. You are also assuming that every enemy is going to be kind enough to stand conveniently in your auras.


I was talking about Arctic Air.


This is why I didn't compare VG to Glacier. VG and Glacier have almost nothing in common except that 1) they are both technically holds and 2) they have the same recharge. VG is essentially an immobile version of AA on a 240 second timer, with some tweaks here and there. The one specific thing VG does not do well is break an alpha, exactly like AA. Glacier, in contrast, is a perfect alpha breaker if you are confident enough to use it that way. It is not as available as Stalagmites but VG is not as available as AA.

And to point out a specific advantage of AA: there is no lost opportunity cost. There is never a group where you will say "Maybe I should save this for the next group," because it is always there. I do not think that this makes Ice "better" or "superior" or whatever else. It is just a fact about the set.

[PS I wonder if at some point we will end up bringing up Electric Control. If Ice Control is significantly underperforming it, IMO buffing it and leaving Electric where it is would probably just create new fodder for argument. I also wonder whether Ice would be rated better if you could see enemy recharge tanking like you can their endurance bar.]

I'm assuming that if the battle even lasts long enough for the full extent of Ice's slows (here used as a catch-all for slow and recharge) to be relevant, the fact that the foes might scatter around a bit probably isn't going to make or break you.

Fair enough. AA can be detoggled, though, and requires you to stand in the middle of the action. Those downsides are sufficient to offset the flaws of VG by comparison.

Also, a PBAoE hold in a set that doesn't feature a stealth power is, by definition, not an alpha breaker. An alpha is a first strike.

Over-time, sustainable control is obviously Ice's strength. The question is whether that's a worthwhile strength in a game that generally features fast-paced combat.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Fixed that for you.

I am pretty much done talking about this. I don't know what to say at this point except that I will try to suck more with my Ice characters in order to meet expectations. No harm done in any case.

If you're done then that's fine. I'm not paying you to talk with me about this, after all. Still, if you're done, then you'd have been better served by not saying anything at all, rather than the above-quoted flippancy.

Needless to say that in my opinion, the disadvantages of AA offset the disadvantages of VG, just as in your opinion, AA's lack of an opportunity cost is a "specific advantage."

No one said that your Ice characters sucked.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Sorry, not being flippant. Something about the way I write comes off that way. I wish I could say it's because English is a second language, but I actually have an undergrad degree in English, so no dice there. I don't mean to be disrespectful. I actually sort of enjoy these sorts of debates. I apologize if I came across too harshly.

Anyway, if you ever want to team with me on Virtue and meet the various Ice and Earth (and Elec and Mind and Fire and all those others) send a tell my way. I promise I'm a lot milder in person.

The way Domination effects work, as a second conditional effect in a power, means you can't just say "Slap an extra mag 1 onto the current confuse effect". You could put a 100% chance of mag 1 in, but that'd spam the Domination message all the time I think which would be slightly misleading. Adding another Chance of Mag 3 confuse would work better, although interestingly rather than making it more effective vs bosses it would instead make it more effective vs minions and lieuts and only slightly so vs bosses
To clarify, I want to remove the -kd from the holds, not the immobs. Removing it from the immobs could have a nasty effect on Ice/Storm characters who sorta rely on it,

This would be one of the easier fixes, and one I'd appreciate most. Giving Ice a quick recharging proper Alpha mitegator would go a long way to improving it IMO, fixing one of the worst issues with the set without making it overpowered.

No problem, man. Some loss in the translation is natural on the internet. I know I often come off as more strident than I intend. It's just that -- and this isn't a shot at you or anyone else in particular -- I feel like these mechanical balance discussions too often devolve into a subjective pissing match about who's better at playing what.

Perhaps I'm too sensitive to that trend.

I don't play on Virtue, but likewise, I'll extend an invitation to play with me on Triumph. Or perhaps sometime we could get together on Test and compare notes. I admit it's been quite some time since I played my Ice Controller; I played her almost exclusively for about two years before finally deciding that there were more fun-to-play options to take through the Incarnate grind. Then again, and to be fair, after that much time playing any one character, I can't very well say that it owes me anything. Perhaps it's natural that I'd tire of her.

Anyway, I may be rusty, but I'd be happy to do some Ice controllering with you sometime. On the few occasions that I've been privileged to see it, stacking Arctic Air was very impressive.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build