Does a Kheldian bring anything to a team?
By
AIB,
Posted on: 2011-04-10 06:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
"The special damage to Kheldians from Quantum Array Gun was originally untyped and irresistable, but has since been changed to Negative Energy damage."
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.... whyyy?
Edit: Also: In that case they really bring nothing. Sorry PBs - can't think of anything else for you...
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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In that case what does a scrappers/stalkers bring to a team? Damage khelds have that. Tanks/Brutes? Aggro Control yup khelds have that. Blasters/Corruptors? More damage? Guess what khelds have that. Controllers/Dominators? Mob Contorl yup khelds can do that as well. Defenders? Buffs and heals well.....khelds cant really do that but looking at it that way what doesnt a kheld bring to a team?? |
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
.... whyyy? Edit: Also: In that case they really bring nothing. Sorry PBs - can't think of anything else for you... |
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HEATs aren't epic as in, "the epic/godlike powers of Thor & Hercules"...HEATs are epic as in, "the epic chronicles and tales of Thor & Hercules".|
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
.... whyyy? Edit: Also: In that case they really bring nothing. Sorry PBs - can't think of anything else for you... |
Didn't make much sense to give them enemies that could 2shot them considering the latter.
By the way, this is the kind of stuff that feeds into, "PBs and WSs suck!", becuase I think this change to the Nictus/Void Hunters was made back in 1997 lol.
Knowing is half the battle...GI Joe.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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Some will argue with you that they can do a lot of stuff ok, but nothing specifically very well. Don't bother man, I went back and forth with a guy in the Kheld section awhile ago that claimed a Defender with equal effort could do better than a well built PB (damage wise and survivablity). I even helped him with his PB build and instead of a thanks, he just continued hating. It may be trolling/fun or a real dislike for the AT, I don't know.|
Originally Posted by jdogg_NA
In that case what does a scrappers/stalkers bring to a team? Damage khelds have that. Tanks/Brutes? Aggro Control yup khelds have that. Blasters/Corruptors? More damage? Guess what khelds have that. Controllers/Dominators? Mob Contorl yup khelds can do that as well. Defenders? Buffs and heals well.....khelds cant really do that but looking at it that way what doesnt a kheld bring to a team??
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Not everyone is going like PBs/WSs especially when they don't understand the AT and they are entitled to their opinions. This is a good example:
"Quant/void-panic?"
When did the devs change this...like in i11?
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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I don't play 'em anymore, nor do I reject any on my teams however, so who cares?|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
By the way, this is the kind of stuff that feeds into, "PBs and WSs suck!", becuase I think this change to the Nictus/Void Hunters was made back in 1997 lol.
Knowing is half the battle...GI Joe. |
Also, WSs don't suck, but imho PBs still do because...
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Originally Posted by jdogg_NA
In that case what does a scrappers/stalkers bring to a team? Damage khelds have that. Tanks/Brutes? Aggro Control yup khelds have that. Blasters/Corruptors? More damage? Guess what khelds have that. Controllers/Dominators? Mob Contorl yup khelds can do that as well. Defenders? Buffs and heals well.....khelds cant really do that but looking at it that way what doesnt a kheld bring to a team??
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If I need a damage dealer I'll invite a dedicated damage dealer, if I need a healer I'll invite a proper healer. A tank, a tank, etc...
That one person who does a little bit of everything suboptimal to the toons more specialized in each respective task will never have my preference.
That said, however, I realize also this is my own opinion on it. To each their own.
The only time I may ever actually refuse a PB because of him being a PB is if I'm doing something where aggro management is an important factor and I'm stuck with a WP tank, which should be next to never.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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See Jdogg? Exactly what I said in my last post.|
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
...I'm that type of guy who prefers specialization.
If I need a damage dealer I'll invite a dedicated damage dealer, if I need a healer I'll invite a proper healer. A tank, a tank, etc... That one person who does a little bit of everything suboptimal to the toons more specialized in each respective task will never have my preference. |
Tri, all good and I agree to an extent. Not every PB you play with though is going to specialize their toon. After running my Tri-Form in PvP for a couple of years (thank you Solient Green), I realized that the build had to be very specific in one branch or another to play well. When I made my second PB, I went All Human and built for high recharge which translates into high damage, fast heals and solid survivablity on teams and solo.
Would I like PBs to get a buff? Sure, but like I've said in the Kheld forums...it's amazing what IOs/accolades can do for a toon and I'm happy my PB plays like a boss as a TF/SF toon. Is it going to outperform a purpled Scrapper? No, but it does better than many Scrappers I've played with on TFs.
There are hundreds of threads similiar to this in the Kheld area, but it's always good to have a cool discussion with my fellow forumites.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
> Does a Kheldian bring anything to a team?
Stupid amounts of knockback, if we're talking about PBs. I still can't get over their Footstomp clone(ish) having kb instead of kd.
For those who just picked on the title "Does a Kheldian bring anything to a team", they have forgotten to read until the end: "Do they make any noticeable different in a team?"
I am getting the idea that Kheldian is a secondary AT to everything else except healer/buffer (or could include healer as well but I don't know PB that well). That is: they are the secondary tank, secondary scrapper, secondary blaster, secondary controller; but never really something of their own.
Not exactly a bad thing if a Kheldian is complimenting the other ATs in the team. It fills in the gaps between the other highly specialised ATs. It helps to shift the balance of a, for instance, tank/melee heavy or a blaster/ranged heavy team.
So, do they make any noticeable different in a team? I would say No form what I have experienced so far UNLESS a Kheldian is played flexibly instead of modeling, or mirroring, itself on those other ATs. I used to play my WS as a tri-form. I might continue down this path.
The mindset of this game is to pick an AT and make the most of its specialisation. Kheldian perhaps is the most easiest to mess up with.
Well the way I see it I love mine and dont really care what people think. Like I said come see mine and youll see a well built PB is a great asset to any team.
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Only scrappers/stalkers bring more of it, and with better survivability.| In that case what does a scrappers/stalkers bring to a team? Damage khelds have that. |
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| Tanks/Brutes? Aggro Control yup khelds have that. |
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| Blasters/Corruptors? More damage? Guess what khelds have that. |
In the case of corruptors its with better buffs/debuffs.
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| Controllers/Dominators? Mob Contorl yup khelds can do that as well. |
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| Defenders? Buffs and heals well.....khelds cant really do that but looking at it that way what doesnt a kheld bring to a team?? |
Now you're just gonna say I'm a "kheld hater", but my PB is my main. I love him to death and I have absolutely no intention of changing my main; but I'm also not gonna delude myself into thinking that the Peacebringer AT is "okay" where it's at right now just because I enjoy him. It needs some serious attention from the devs, it is NOT in a good place right now, and hasn't been for a long while. The general consensus of the player base is they suck. It's not just anecdotal either, people have run numbers for Peacebringers and Warshades, you can compare those with the numbers people have run for other ATs easily. I'm sure the devs can run their own numbers and it won't deviate too far from what the players have already ran.
Warshades are a beast of a different color...they have a gimmick that they leverage VERY well, and in truth I believe that is a major hindrance in getting any changes made to the Peacebringers. Their gimmick is what makes them, yet they're still similar enough to PB's that the argument can be made that any change you make to one you have to make to the other. The problem is if you make PBs better, and WS's better the WS's still have their gimmick which will just snowball the other changes. Don't even think about adjusting that gimmick either cause the WS's would revolt if they did.
Peacebringers just plain need some dev attention and love.
There is a difference to me between "not perfect" and "useless" when it comes to teaming. Quite a lot of ground in between, really. It isn't like Kheldians are terrible, they're just rarely the pinnacle. Outside of a soloing context, no self-focused AT is the pinnacle. That means Blasters, Brutes, Stalkers and Scrappers are in the same boat. Still, all of them bring enough to be valuable and are certainly adequate for anything PVE has to offer.
Two things to keep in mind,
All Kheldians are not created equal (Builds vary)
All Kheldian players are not equally gifted (Players vary)
Of course, this is also true of any AT.
But, with the right type of build for a given situation and in the right player's hands...
Yeah, a Kheld can bring alot to a team.
A Kheld can even...BE THE TEAM...
Yay Peacebringer bashing well enough of this im going to go get my "useless" PB and go kick some tail, if anyone wants to join me and see what a real PB is like servers are up youll find me forming leagues in Pocket D on Triumph but come quick they always fill fast!!
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I would love to agree with you, besides the tautologies. But I have seen this argument before used by MM, corr, certain types of dom and def, and even brute supporters too.|
Originally Posted by AIB
Two things to keep in mind,
All Kheldians are not created equal (Builds vary) All Kheldian players are not equally gifted (Players vary) Of course, this is also true of any AT. But, with the right type of build for a given situation and in the right player's hands... Yeah, a Kheld can bring alot to a team. A Kheld can even...BE THE TEAM... |
I would love to see Kheldians are that strong. But I am still unconvinced. A team in this game normally (I stressed 'normally') requires teammates with extreme specialities. One Kheldian just cannot do it on its own.
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Well I say actions speak louder than words so ill go prove it by 1 shotting some lvl 54s
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Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
I would love to agree with you, besides the tautology. But I have seen this argument before used by MM, corr, certain types of dom and def, and even brute supporters too.
I would love to see Kheldians are that strong. But I am still unconvinced. |
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True. A toon, PB or not, is generally never useless unless they're outside or at the start of the mission standing still, doing nothing.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
There is a difference to me between "not perfect" and "useless" when it comes to teaming.
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Personally I'd say a PB in most any team context is a suboptimally spent team slot, so to say.
That said, I'd love the devs to give them some abilities that could make you say "For X you need a PB.". Then perhaps I'd dust off my own PB again, which I haven't really touched since i8 now I think.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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If I hadn't played my PB since i8/2006, I may feel the same way. IOs came out in i9 so I can understand anyone feeling this way about any toon playing strictly on SOs.
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Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
True. A toon, PB or not, is generally never useless unless they're outside or at the start of the mission standing still, doing nothing.
Personally I'd say a PB in most any team context is a suboptimally spent team slot, so to say. That said, I'd love the devs to give them some abilities that could make you say "For X you need a PB.". Then perhaps I'd dust off my own PB again, which I haven't really touched since i8 now I think. |
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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Easy way to form a quick reply, but it doesn't make much sense.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
If I hadn't played my PB since i8/2006, I may feel the same way. IOs came out in i9 so I can understand anyone feeling this way about any toon playing strictly on SOs.
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If you read back you'll see I'm very aware of what the capabilities of a PB are, I just don't agree with many in that it would be sufficient to be a more worthy team asset than just about anything else.
Unless ofcourse you wish to argue that a PB is more a jack of all trades than something more specialized...
If not, my point stands and all that's left for you is to agree or disagree with it as you please.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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You'll excuse me if I LMAO at this. A team in this game normally needs nothing except people who want to do more than stand by the door and pick various orifices. |
Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
A team in this game normally (I stressed 'normally') requires teammates with extreme specialities.
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"Extreme specialties?" Puh-lease. Or are you one of the sort who refuses to start anything without a tank and "healer?"
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Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
A team in this game normally (I stressed 'normally') requires teammates with extreme specialities.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You'll excuse me if I LMAO at this. A team in this game normally needs nothing except people who want to do more than stand by the door and pick various orifices.
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It really depends on what your own playing style is and what you like to do in-game.
Depending on that you'll mix more regularly with a certain group of people in-line with this than with many others and thus your vision on other aspects of the game gets somewhat blurry.
We are all affected by this to some extent - some a lot more than others.
For instance, I don't know nearly as much as many, many others about how teamplay in lower levels arcs and TFs goes these days. Who fullfulls what sorts of roles different than they do at higher levels, etc...
Why? Simple, because I don't like playing low-level characters myself and thus end up not doing it.
I know people who like speedrunning TFs so much they have to ask if a normal time for an STF is more towards 30 minutes or 2 hours - they just never do it.
Back to the quoted statement: If you find yourself enjoying the game by playing content in a way that often requires you to really get teams to match certain requirements etc you'll also see this happen a lot more around you by teams others form, because you get a tendency to look towards the people who do the same.
Myself I'm very much in that position as well.
It is exactly this that is also the reason for my opinion on PBs.
Let me reiterate:
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Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
...I'm that type of guy who prefers specialization.
If I need a damage dealer I'll invite a dedicated damage dealer, if I need a healer I'll invite a proper healer. A tank, a tank, etc... That one person who does a little bit of everything suboptimal to the toons more specialized in each respective task will never have my preference. That said, however, I realize also this is my own opinion on it. To each their own. |
That is a direct result of all the above-mentioned in this post.
How everyone plays the game differs and due to how I play it PBs are considered by me and many of the people I team with most and organize things with considered suboptimal.
Ofcourse, for others who play the game entirely differently they can be awesome and that's a good thing too.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
I agree with Memphis_Bill: I don't even look at ATs when I build teams, taskforce or not. Send a tell, get invited. Simple as that. If a team of 8 can't succeed regardless of team composition in this game I write it off as a development failure, not a team one. So in that regard - as long as someone knows how to play their character (or at least doesn't take the team down with them when they faceplant) - Kheldians bring as much to the team as anyone else.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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Comparing any toon/AT that runs on SOs versus the same that runs on IOs doesn't make much sense? The fact that you can build for +damage, +recharge, +hps, +resistances etc. with IOs should make sense unless you haven't ventured into the IO system at this point.|
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Easy way to form a quick reply, but it doesn't make much sense.
If you read back you'll see I'm very aware of what the capabilities of a PB are, I just don't agree with many in that it would be sufficient to be a more worthy team asset than just about anything else. Unless ofcourse you wish to argue that a PB is more a jack of all trades than something more specialized... If not, my point stands and all that's left for you is to agree or disagree with it as you please. |
I don't want you to take this as me being argumentative, just stating the obvious from my perspective...
If you haven't played an AT in approximately 5 years, you can't be as familiar with it as you claim. In i8, Rikti invasions weren't around, IOs weren't around and Ouroboros wasn't around. If the last time you played your PB was before all these items were released, I don't see how you can be very aware of PB's capabilities. It sounds like you are more aware of their shortcomings, some of which are non factors at this point.
You made this statement a few posts back, "Quant/void-panic?". This from someone that knows PBs? Really?
Also, we are talking in circles...I never said a PB was a better asset than any other AT. I stated that my paticular build outdamages and outsurvives a lot of the Scrappers I have TFd/SFd with. This doesn't mean that "Scrappers suck", just means I have a very focused build, Cosmic Balance on my side and have learned how to leverage the unique pros/cons behind PBs as opposed to building a toon that does a little bit of everything half way decently.
All said and done, I respect your opinion and agree that a buff would be nice. This sums it up:
"Two things to keep in mind,
All Kheldians are not created equal (Builds vary)
All Kheldian players are not equally gifted (Players vary)
Of course, this is also true of any AT."
Just because I PUG with a Tank that is constantly dying or a Brute that can't taunt LR, doesn't mean I feel negatively about the ATs.
Have a good one man.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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Agreed. I ran a few ITFs this week and two stand out in my recollection. One was an all melee PUG and the other was an all support PUG. Both were shard runs and beat the TF like it was nothing. I attribute that to the level of skill of the players and wouldn't expect the same from PUGs that were all new players who leveled up their toons through AE.
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Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
I agree with Memphis_Bill: I don't even look at ATs when I build teams, taskforce or not. Send a tell, get invited. Simple as that. If a team of 8 can't succeed regardless of team composition in this game I write it off as a development failure, not a team one. So in that regard - as long as someone knows how to play their character (or at least doesn't take the team down with them when they faceplant) - Kheldians bring as much to the team as anyone else.
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"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
I have a Warshade at 50, and on Sunday, I got my ole PB up to 43 on an ITF. Both characters contribute substantially to teams, bringing damage and flexibility. On that ITF, yes a Blaster would have brought more damage than my Nova form. A Scrapper can do more damage than my Dwarf Form. But a Blaster would not be able to float overhead to blast, and then drop down in a different form to tank an ambush while taunting a foe away from a squishier teammate -- while the tank was busy elsewhere. Both PBs and WSs bring a flexible character who can contribute in many ways and fill the gaps when needed.
I haven't brought my WS on the new Trials yet, but I'm looking forward to it. (I've kind of slowed down on doing them because it was feeling like a bit of a grind. Only did an ITF yesterday.)
Not everyone has to be a "super-max" character. Sometimes, we just play for the fun. I find Khelds to be fun, and I'm happy to have them on the team as well as play them.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
"The special damage to Kheldians from Quantum Array Gun was originally untyped and irresistable, but has since been changed to Negative Energy damage."
My PB's current Energy/Negative resistance while solo - 51.8%
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-