Imagine No "Origins"; It's Easy If You Try...

OK, I understand that having the various Origins--Mutant, Science, etc.--is part of the "chrome" & "flash" of the game, but do they make any real difference in game play? True, you must get comfortable with having to buy the various colourfully-named Enhancements for each Origin, & learning to quickly identify & slot those could be considered a part of "gameplay". Additionally, recognizing which Enhancements have no value to you aside from being items to sell or trade is a part of understanding how to play CoX.

Yet, I understand that more than a few players always choose "Natural" for their Origin, in order to (for instance) get such bonuses as both Blackwand and Nemesis Staff; simply to avoid being pigeonholed; or because there's no real reason not to do so, & no compelling reason to choose otherwise. After 3 years of play, I myself am beginning to lean that way.

"Realistically", your character concept & bio seem to determine your actual "Origin". Looking at each of my 40+ toons, I can easily see how I could have created backstories allowing each of them to have been Natural in Origin. My Magic Controller Elf is from Faerie; his powers are Natural in that environment. My Mutant Blaster comes from another planet, & everyone there can shoot energy, etc, ad infinitum. I have seen many really clever & well-thought out bios by other players which sort of transcend the "Origin" requirement.

I use Bonus Powers such as "Secondary Mutation", "Fortune", "Ninja Run", etc., to fine-tune my concepts. I enjoy being able to do this, but if "Origin" actually meant anything to balanced gameplay, it seems to me that we simply would not be allowed to assign "Self-Destruction" to a non-Tech/Science toon, "Secondary Mutation" to a non-Mutant, or "Fortune" to a non-Magic toon. (I'm not saying I *want* such restrictions!)

In my opinion, the "Origins" are only there to help orient new players, or players without a background in comics mythology knowledge. If arbitrary Origins all vanished tomorrow, & it was up to you to decide how your toon got his or her powers, I think the average vet of CoX would very quickly come up with a detailed reason--or no reason, since some folks don't get into a background bio. (I must admit that it disconcerts me a little to see a lvl 50 toon without even a sketchy bio, but hey, that's only my take--the player, having paid his or her dime to NCSoft, has no obligation to tell me or anyone else how he / she became a minor demigod.)

As things stand, a character like Wolverine could not exist in CoX. He is a "multiclass" character--a Mutant / Science-Tech / Natural Scrapper with at least 3 Primary Powers--Martial Arts, Claws, & Katana. Perhaps even FIVE Primary Powers, since Logan is a seasoned soldier who has been shown to be familiar with both longarms & pistols. Nor could The Punisher be a CoX toon--his origin has been shown to be primarily Natural, with an intimation of supernatural (Magic) influence (he chose Death, eh?), and Frank Castle is not one to say "I only work with dual pistols; I will never pick up a machine gun or an RPG, because after all, I can have only one kind of expertise with firearms."

This is a pretty big can of worms to open, I realise, & if the Devs took my outlook to heart, it could easily lead to a "D&D 2.0" type revision in game rules, which is hardly likely. I just wanted to point out the absolutely arbitrary nature of the Origins, as well as suggesting that multi-class toons would not necessarily unbalance the game.

I am sure that someone more knowedgeable than me will quickly explain why my outlook on Origins (& multi-classing) is intrinsically faulty, but that's part of the fun of posting here. If people disagree with you, the retort is always bound to be thoughtful & interesting.

In the misty vast reaches of time (i.e, closed beta of CoH back in 2004) there was a brief period where your origin determined what "story trees" were available to you. Each origin had a short into story mission, and the other contacts were meted out by origin.

Ostensibly, this meant that you had some replay value because each origin had its own experience with its own storylines.

One undesirable side effect,though, was that it meant that you ran out of content pretty quickly. Meanwhile, there were all of these missions you were gated from simply because you were not the origin of the contact.

After a lot of feedback about shortages of content, the gates were removed for the most part. It was more or less decided that gating content by either origin or archetype was both unfair and impractical. The notable exceptions are the newbie missions that introduce you to the FBSA departments (M.A.G.I., G.I.F.T. and the rest) and the Origins of Power series that necessarily have to be unique on a per origin basis.

Hey, not to worry, if you want to progress past level 50, your Origin becomes "Insane Well of the Furies."

Origins themselves mean little enough in this game but the game itself doesn't suffer for that but yeah we're all gonna be mad well zombies soon enough so it's kind of academic

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

"mad well zombies" LOL...

... so ignore them. *shrug*

See my Guides and Tutorials

What is an origin anyways? Is Superman a Natural because everyone from his planet has the same abilites or is he a Science because he comes from another planet?

I usually choose 'natural' because I like to toss the dagger at people. I'm 'naturally' a mutant because I was born this way. I'm naturally a tech because without the power suit im nothing. I'm natually magic because I got these powers from reading a book, or everyone from my dimension has these same powers....

I could wish that Origin choice had some sort of actual game impact but then people would gripe that one Origin story line had something they wanted. In the long run it's more of a personal choice than anything else anyways so I am pretty happy with the current set up.

CanaDixieMan, it sounds like you undervalue the concept of origins within the game, and I know you're not the only one.

But plenty of players do use them, especially around the Virtue server's neck of the woods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roughtrade I'm 'naturally' a mutant because I was born this way. I'm naturally a tech because without the power suit im nothing. I'm natually magic because I got these powers from reading a book, or everyone from my dimension has these same powers...

That's fine for you (no sarcasm intended), but be aware that it's not how the comic books work! Agreed, you're SUPPOSED to play the game 'your way', no argument there. BUT there are plenty of players out there who honor the three-quarter-century-old traditions of the comic book universes that inspired City of Heroes to begin with.

Yes, it's arguable that characters like Wolverine and Batman cherry-pick their abilities and traits from multiple origins, and actually I think City of Heroes pays tribute to those situations through Dual Origin enhancements. But at the end of the day, Wolverine is a mutant, and Batman is a natural origin character (at least the old-school Detective Comics variety of Batman). Why? Ask their writers. While creating my own characters within the game, some of my most difficult origin-related decisions have involved characters who used one or two high-tech gadgets but who were otherwise natural, ordinary people. Not the type to let mere game mechanics sway my conceptual sensibilities too much, I instead tried to imagine how those characters would have seen themselves, if they were real. What parts of their origins have impacted their lives and personalities more than any other? Asking this question often yields a quick, obvious answer.

My Pixy has to disarm a bomb. She cast a spell instead. Yay magic origin.

Origins can light Oil slick arrow. Thats a bonus!

It's for story purposes. Many arcs actually do handle origins. So I see some of the validity, although on the overall, I do believe as a suggestion. That there be a special Origin pool.

For example. If you are sorcery, upon reaching epic pool you should have some spells.

A Mutant might have secondary mutation via the booster pack, but what if they had a pool dedicated to their changed physiology.

Tech could have some devices

Natural could have some weapons, or a simple fighting technique

And Science could have some chemestry based items.

Much like the beginning powers, but unlocked. Or just gained because you have excelled in your origen. Perhaps these powers could be made inherent?

Just an idea. I know this is not the suggestion thread, but I always thought there should be more to the starting powers that in the beginning bring about the diversity of those origins.

Acutally.

A better idea than what I had would be if our origin powers just upgraded?

Every 10 levels they could upgrade and change up in name and in power and effect. The powers and effects could remain the same with their secondary effect, but just enhanced.

Origins should be more than a story tool. The beginning makes that apparent with the inherent powers that aid you. So perhaps these powers should improve to redfine the origin concept.

As I expected, some very interesting responses here. Superman is a unique but iconic case: we know that Science was almost a religion on Krypton. Kal-El has been seen to turn to Science or Technology when his red-sun-induced powers fail. He can and will use Tech; he is even a Robotic Mastermind as well as a Tanker with both Invulnerabilty and incredible personal Willpower), but Supes at base is Naturally a living solar battery. Kal has never used Magic (that I know of!), & in fact, Magic (along with Kryptonite) is one of his Achilles heels. (Hmmm, why no weaknesses in trade for bonus powers in CoX? This is a convention of dozens of fantasy RPGs.) Kal-El is also a Blaster who can employ heat vision & cold breath. His abilities include Acute Senses, but of course, no one thinks of him as a Mutant.

"At the end of the day", Logan is indeed a Mutant, but it's semantics to say that Spider-Man is "the non-Mutant superhero". The Canucklehead was born with altered genetics, but Mr. Parker's genetics were altered after birth. He may not have been a Mutant to begin with, but is certainly one now, as well as being a Tank/Science-Tech user.

Comics are a difficult medium to adapt to PC game play, and ultimately, I'm obviously very pleased with CoX, because I play every day. Like the rest of you, I attempt to create unique toons within the official framework. I do sort of miss the idea of Aquatic-based toons, or even toons who can Transform into water, sand, and the like, but let's face it--developing such abilities would also require the Devs to create underwater settings and missions, invasions from Atlantis or Mu, etc.

That we all derive our abilities from the "Furious Well" puts an interesting light on things. It could explain how my otherwise natural pistol-blaster, The Creeping Skull, a homicide dick with few Science skills, came up with his various Tricks & Traps, as well as some sort of hologrammatic device to make it appear that his head is on fire. The Well obviously gave him a nudge, rather like Jean Paul Valley / Azrael, basically a Scrapper, was given his ability to construct high tech armour by the "System".

As I've said before, CoX toons are like snowflakes--no two alike, especially in concept. many times, a toon's "personal bio" shows just the tip of the iceberg, so far as motivation, personal life, & derivations of power. I assume that "hit points" in this game are like hit points in early D&D--they might represent "rolling with the punch" or "damage blocked by a kevlar vest", etc., rather than simply how much raw physical damage a toon can take. Otherwise, one accurate pistol shot to the head, or martial arts kick in the throat, would take out your average Hellion Lieutenant. Or YOU, if you're a Blaster with little personal defense due to game mechanics.

Still, it's fun to discuss this kind of thing. I always learn something. If nothing else, I learn to look at the game from a different angle, which increases my enjoyment in playing it. I expect changes will keep occuring, & no one will be totally satisfied, but then, very few will be totally dissatisifed, either.

The bottom line, IMO, is that origins work best when they are fluid and adaptable to individual tastes. Game mechanics are unavoidably inflexible and they become part of the metagame environment. If one origin has a desirable effect and another has a less desirable effect then the more desirable origin becomes the "best". When that happens, origins cease to be about character concept and become part of the "build" and part of the balance of power. An origin that contributes to making a character more powerful than a character with a different origin is a problem in the making.

As for the Origins of Power and the Well of the Furies as it's currently being written, I pretty much pretend that those things simply never existed. For a long time now, the devs have been shoe-horning game mechanics into the story instead of just letting game mechanics be game mechanics that don't need to be explained as yet another Nemesis or Doctor Aeon plot. (What is it with this fascination with making every new game mechanic be rooted in some villain's activities, anyway?)

And, yes, by my lights the "Well" is as much a villain as Rularu, Shiva, or the Coming Storm. Why would I want my origin tied to that?

*Grumble mode off*

Bottom line - Origins work best when they are treated as cosmetic devices like a costume bit.

While I don't imagine "No Origins," I do imagine only three. The five existing origins get a bit too narrow in definition for me, for reasons others have mentioned. So in my head, I simplify it down to three broad origins: magic, natural, and science. But in-game, I don't limit my characters to these three; instead, I use any origin that makes sense within my system.

So a character I consider "magic" could have an origin of either magic, natural, or mutant. Likewise, my "science" characters could be science, tech, or natural. And my "natural" characters could be anything, really. Once I settle on one of these three, I ultimately choose one of the five based on which inherent power the character needs to round out the "look."


Just a few examples:

• For most of my mutants (think "New Mutants"), the mutagen feels odd to me. But for all my dark characters, who are mostly magic, the same mutagen power looks great, like little puffs of smoke.
• Even though my elves are technically magical, most were built as natural origins so they can have that dagger.
• And I refuse to make a /Devices blaster as the tech origin because I don't want two tasers, so I typically make those as science origins just to get a different power.

The Well by any other name is Magic, so that's what we're all going to be soon. Yay.

I always go "Natural" because I know what all the enhancements are and don't want to learn a new set of DO's, and SOs. Other than that, I don't give it any thought at all other than having to use a specific vendor for the Natural enhancements.

Origins are an important part of character for me. I've left characters for days because I can't quite decide the perfect origin for them. At level twelve I even take a moment to consider which flavour of DOs would suit the character best.

I can't imagine no origins.

I just always pick magic cause it's easier to remember the DO's and SO's at low levels ...

**Damien**

If the origins mattered and had meaningful powers, then people would have to choose between the origin that makes sense for their backstory/look, or the origin that works best with their other powers. You already see this enough with Oil Slick Arrow.

Some of us build the character first and THEN write it a backstory, but we can't ignore the other players.

As for the batman/logan cherry-picking thing, well, people in alpha say CoH was originally going to be that way, but people were doing it more often for maximum synergy / OPness more than they were doing it for making a cool character. So that can cause a similar problem: the bigger the gap becomes between min-maxers and story/character aficionados, the more the min-maxers will avoid others and treat them like second class citizens.

Min-maxing and character creation don't have to be mutually exclusive; I've seen very powerful characters with great backstories and flavor/design/costumes. However, people for whom min-maxing is a secondary concern can find their cool characters picked last for all the TFs and games of dodgeball if there aren't some caps on the min maxers' power and some excellent powers designed to appeal to non min maxers.

So origins are largely a flavor concern where Oil Slick and a chance to set up Containment aren't concerned, and ATs force you to choose from a set of powers that is both thematically appropriate and reasonably effective. This limits your creativity but also helps keep 75% of the players from making identical "tankmages" who chose the "right" origin.

For a successful game, gameplay always has to be a priority over "fluff", even really delicious and awesome fluff. If you crave good (and less-restricted) fluff, read (or even write) a novel / comic / in-character blog.