Do you ever miss the challenge?


Antigonus

 

Posted

Personally I'm a huge fan of making content challenging rather than trying to steamroll everything, though it seems that's becoming increasingly hard to do these days.

I seem to recall a time (I'm thinking around i7-i8, along those lines) many AVs were a challenge. Doing Maria's arc was a challenge. Doing even something like a Crimson arc could be tough with the wrong team - the regular mobs on it, that is.
If it wasn't already you could often make it that with your rep setting. As such I ended up running everything on Invincible I think it was called at the time, and its blue side counterpart.

Now if I set my difficulty to +4x8, which already equates to a lot more than Invincible was back then, the average PUG still seems to have enough alphas, level shifts and hundreds of set bonusses to steamroll it with one hand tapping the controls and the other graciously tilting the beer bottle.

Note: This is all generally speaking.
Ofcourse there were simple things back then too and ofcourse there's the occasion challenge now. Yet somewhere underneath it all I can't help getting caught by the impression that somewhere the upping the content difficulty and adapting the available difficulty settings to rebalance this took a wrong turn.

This leads me to the big question: Is it all just my imagination?
Or is anyone else getting plagued by that dominant feeling of relative lack of challenge as well?


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU View Post
Do you ever miss the challenge?
No. I never wanted challenge, and I never cared about challenge. To me, games are about entertainment and problemsolving, not difficulty and exclusivity. Any encounter which requires me to use my full spectrum of abilities is "challenging" enough, whether I had any difficulty in actually defeating it or not.

I do not need nor do I want to be challenged.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
No. I never wanted challenge, and I never cared about challenge. To me, games are about entertainment and problemsolving, not difficulty and exclusivity.
Just to put this in a different perspective...

What can you do when you encounter a "difficulty"?
  1. Give up and walk away.
  2. Work your way around it, which directly relates back to "problemsolving".

That's my approach. I'll be the last to say I like difficulty for giving me a headache. I like difficulty as a strategic challenge. I like difficulty because it presents the opportunity to do precisely that problemsolving you mentioned.


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU View Post
the average PUG still seems to have enough alphas, level shifts and hundreds of set bonusses to steamroll it with one hand tapping the controls and the other graciously tilting the beer bottle.
I think you pretty much answered your own question with this. The game is still balenced around players who use only SOs so any IOs or Set bonuses or Alpha slots or temp powers already push the players past this. Nothing much that can be done about this as long as the developers don't want to force people to make use of the invention system, which personally I believe they shouldn't. Not everyone enjoys crafting IOs and Min/Maxing their builds.

I guess if you really want the challenge back go back to using SOs or just unslot everything and run with base powers


 

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Some of us have found it again.


If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neon Vixen View Post
I guess if you really want the challenge back go back to using SOs or just unslot everything and run with base powers
If only it were that easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neon Vixen View Post
The game is still balenced around players who use only SOs so any IOs or Set bonuses or Alpha slots or temp powers already push the players past this.
That's what we're being told, yes, but that's not entirely true either in my experience.

Although the game is indeed still doable with SOs, when I most recently played a bit again like that I came to conclude it didn't feel the same as before. In fact, vastly different in certain specific scenarios.
So I went and asked myself what could be the cause of that.

Again, I use an i7 ish point in time for reference.
As said most gameplay was doable, but some things proved to be terribly much harder as anything I did back then with similar toons.
Why? Because of the new approach in the new content.
Tip missions are the best example. In one word: ambushes.
Most of the older content was much more limited when it comes to ambushes, but tip missions for instance are absolutely LOADED with them.
One of the most major reasons most any AT survives the vast majority of all that are set def bonusses.


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

I find myself increasingly uninterested in most high level task forces because, as you stated, it's just a roll-over with a swarm of +1 defense-capped alphas just making it a snooze. That's not a criticism of the players but just the fact that the mudflation of other games has caught up with CoH. I suppose our focus is supposed to be on the new trials now and the old TFs are something to do before getting your incarnate stuff.


 

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That's why I PvP. A thinking, (usually) intelligent opponent can provide more challenge than a whole map full of NPCs. The only PvE I do these days is TFs for shards.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU View Post
Just to put this in a different perspective...

What can you do when you encounter a "difficulty"?
  1. Give up and walk away.
  2. Work your way around it, which directly relates back to "problemsolving".

That's my approach. I'll be the last to say I like difficulty for giving me a headache. I like difficulty as a strategic challenge. I like difficulty because it presents the opportunity to do precisely that problemsolving you mentioned.
When the solution to a problem requires me to simply make a different character, that is what I consider a "bad" challenge. Years ago, I complained that running bosses were hard to catch. People told me to immobilize or slow them. When I exposited that I had no such powers, (Kat/SR Scrapper), people shrugged their shoulders in response.

Not I said "require me to use all my abilities," not "swap abilities I have for other abilities" or "go get more items/powers/etc." Challenge, as such, comes down to what a player does in real time, not how a player prepares beforehand, at least in my eyes. "Challenges" where the only difficulty comes from having minimum build requirements, after which point they become easy are exactly the wrong kind of challenge, and those are the sum total of challenges we have.

Build stronger. Optimise more. Grind for more "phat lute." Bring more people. The game encourages us to trivialise challenges by building to prepare. These, I am sorely uninterested in. I don't play City of Heroes as a puzzle game where the point is to find the right build to tackle each challenge. I play it like an action game, where MY build has to tackle each challenge, or I do indeed walk away and never try again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
When the solution to a problem requires me to simply make a different character, that is what I consider a "bad" challenge. Years ago, I complained that running bosses were hard to catch. People told me to immobilize or slow them. When I exposited that I had no such powers, (Kat/SR Scrapper), people shrugged their shoulders in response.

Not I said "require me to use all my abilities," not "swap abilities I have for other abilities" or "go get more items/powers/etc." Challenge, as such, comes down to what a player does in real time, not how a player prepares beforehand, at least in my eyes. "Challenges" where the only difficulty comes from having minimum build requirements, after which point they become easy are exactly the wrong kind of challenge, and those are the sum total of challenges we have.

Build stronger. Optimise more. Grind for more "phat lute." Bring more people. The game encourages us to trivialise challenges by building to prepare. These, I am sorely uninterested in. I don't play City of Heroes as a puzzle game where the point is to find the right build to tackle each challenge. I play it like an action game, where MY build has to tackle each challenge, or I do indeed walk away and never try again.
This entire post seems to be based around the assumption by "working your way around it" I meant anything whatsoever you have to turn around and come back later for rather than - as you stated - a real time solution. Where did I say this?

Not with 1 letter in any of my preceeding posts I intended to so much as even hint at that. The challenges I refer to are real time approaches of a current combat situation, nothing like speccing a toon for a particular enemy which would be rediculous.
In the very most basic of scenarios it could be as simple as classic unwritten good practice rules like follow the tank rather than rush in your uber solo... squishy, because that should kill you.


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU View Post
Personally I'm a huge fan of making content challenging rather than trying to steamroll everything, though it seems that's becoming increasingly hard to do these days.

I seem to recall a time (I'm thinking around i7-i8, along those lines) many AVs were a challenge. Doing Maria's arc was a challenge. Doing even something like a Crimson arc could be tough with the wrong team - the regular mobs on it, that is.
If it wasn't already you could often make it that with your rep setting. As such I ended up running everything on Invincible I think it was called at the time, and its blue side counterpart.

Now if I set my difficulty to +4x8, which already equates to a lot more than Invincible was back then, the average PUG still seems to have enough alphas, level shifts and hundreds of set bonusses to steamroll it with one hand tapping the controls and the other graciously tilting the beer bottle.

Note: This is all generally speaking.
Ofcourse there were simple things back then too and ofcourse there's the occasion challenge now. Yet somewhere underneath it all I can't help getting caught by the impression that somewhere the upping the content difficulty and adapting the available difficulty settings to rebalance this took a wrong turn.

This leads me to the big question: Is it all just my imagination?
Or is anyone else getting plagued by that dominant feeling of relative lack of challenge as well?

I very much agree that the game is far easier than when I started and I do miss a lot of the challenge.

When first began to play towards the end of I6, the game was significantly harder, but that doesn't mean it was universally better. I'd argue that under Cryptic the game was too tough for most players (or at least tougher than was comfortable) and so other games got the huge subscription numbers.

However, the pendulum has largely swung the other way and we are now spoonfed content where failure is virtually impossible (hence in many missions now we get to talk to somebody and then knock them out by clicking a line of text rather than actually do something.) Missions are designed to be completed easily and move you on to the next one.

Maybe a perfect example of this is the Manticore TF. It used to be tough. Really tough. Those Paragon Protectors got their MoG up would just mince the team. It wasn't just tough but it became boring, because you'd get one PP and then another each with full MoG (back when MoG actually meant something) and it would take hours to complete what is a relatively short Task Force.

Now, PPs are soft and the TF, whilst being very good content-wise, is boring because it's too easy to steam roller.

That possibly explains the biggest challenge for the Devs... finding the balance. Can they balance a TF to be a tough challenge for everyone but impossible for none? It's a tough line to walk and instead of taking the challenge many of the game mechanics are altered instead. Reichsmann

So what happens now is a lot of people try and make their own challenge - either by doing speed runs or by doing a TF with as few people as possible, for example. Statesman TF with 4 is a proper challenge and you've got to work hard to make it succeed.

I don't mind that. If content is so easy it gets steam-rollered at the first or 2nd attempt then there's something seriously wrong with it. Inevitably, with static content, once you've worked out how to do something it will become easier, but there remain some objectives in the game that remain a challenge: LRSF, STF, LGTF etc - good content that gives a sense of achievement.

There's less sense of achievement these days for much of the content - but one reason I like Praetoria so much more than the old content is because the missions are tougher and so it's more fun for me.

I sincerely wish the game was more challenging. Maybe an Apex without the Alphas would be a genuine challenge who's up for that?



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Maybe an Apex without the Alphas would be a genuine challenge who's up for that?
Not Apex, but yes, my +8 Tin Mage is already in the pipeline and being prepared for with some people, did you want in?
Send me a tell in-game if so.


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU View Post
Personally I'm a huge fan of making content challenging rather than trying to steamroll everything, though it seems that's becoming increasingly hard to do these days.
I'm a fan of making content challenging and then steamroll it anyway.

Quote:
I seem to recall a time (I'm thinking around i7-i8, along those lines) many AVs were a challenge. Doing Maria's arc was a challenge. Doing even something like a Crimson arc could be tough with the wrong team - the regular mobs on it, that is.
Quote:
This leads me to the big question: Is it all just my imagination?
Or is anyone else getting plagued by that dominant feeling of relative lack of challenge as well?
I keep wanting to run TFs on +4 if I'm on a team full of incarnates. Solo, not so much, but I do farm my way through Crimson's arc with my tanker set to x8, just because I can.

Maybe you need a new kind of challenge that isn't based on mechanics. How about the Smurphy challenge. Set an ITF to a 2 hour timer, +2 difficulty, buffed enemies, debuffed players, and see how many deaths you can rack up while still finishing in time. We got about 182 I think, with 1:59 on the timer. It helped that almost every death unleashed a torrent of Fallout, Vengeance and Mutation, and of course it was hilarious. Playing a blaster I would simply run into the nearest spawn and nuke or fire off as much as I could before I died. And then I'd get rezzed and do it again. Fun stuff. This was before Incarnates so you might have to set the difficulty to +4.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU View Post
Just to put this in a different perspective...

What can you do when you encounter a "difficulty"?
  1. Give up and walk away.
  2. Work your way around it, which directly relates back to "problemsolving".
I don't like the kind of "challenge" they're building into all the content since Going Rogue went live. Cheating bosses in solo missions? Massive ambushes in solo missions? No thanks. I don't plan to even attempt the Incarnate Trials - they are composed of pretty much every feature I dislike in MMOs, all in one place. (The only way I could hate them more is if the missions contained mandatory open PVP.) At this point, it's pretty unlikely my most recent level 50 will even unlock the Alpha.

I play games to be entertained. I do not find frustrating, cheating bosses and "raid" content entertaining. Just the opposite, in the case of Raids; the very fact that they even exist now is decreasing my enjoyment of this game.

So to answer the question: I don't miss the "challenge." And when I encounter a situation in the game that becomes frustrating enough to actually make me *angry* at the game then yes, I absolutely give up and walk away.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Now, PPs are soft and the TF, whilst being very good content-wise, is boring because it's too easy to steam roller.
They are the same Paragon Protectors. You and everyone else have just learned how to handle them, and of course your characters have got more powerful thanks to inventions.

I remember back in issue 1 when Freakshow bosses and Crey Power tanks were considered deadly and a challenge to a whole team, as we were street sweeping Brickstown. It was fun fighting them 3-4 or 8 vs 1 but I think I prefer what we have now.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

Posted

Doing things solo tends to keep the challenge alive I've found.

For example last night I ran the Incarnate arc on my Plant/Emp at 0x3 and that was a fun challenge, I managed to do it without dying too (with quite a bit of running away from Honoree and the good Captain which separated them and meant I could take them down individually).

Then afterwards I joined an 8 man PuG running +3 radio missions and it was horrific (for them) and a breeze for us.

So if you're really pining for that challenge try soloing something out of your comfort zone.


 

Posted

The other problem is...'challenging for who?'

Team of 8 fire/Rads or the notorious Repeat Offenders team can usually crush absolutely anything in the game in short order.

Heck even in the new trials, stack enough of the big hitters and you'd still probably be able to walk them because in the end it all comes down to killing something big, very quickly.

Even the hardest stage, the escaped prisoner stage, requires you kill a lot of things quickly and once people have pegged down the entrance routes of the prisoners, you'll find the difficulty drops immeasurably.

Now secondary to this and mentioned in the above paragraph is 'Challenging for how long?'

Take Augustus at the end of the ITF, when first released to live servers he was quite a bit of a challenge but fairly sharpish, people worked out basic strategies for him to the point where everyone knows how to deal with that scenario now and he nolonger presents a challenge.

World of Warcraft for example, there are very few raid bosses that are constantly challenging, especially in vanilla, most of it is basically learning to do the right 'dance'. Do this now, now do this when the boss does X, move out of the fire. Once you both know and outgear the encounter it nolonger becomes challenging.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
They are the same Paragon Protectors. You and everyone else have just learned how to handle them, and of course your characters have got more powerful thanks to inventions.

You are misinformed:

Quote:
Moment of Glory was originally a power which prevented all regeneration, took away almost all Hit Points, and lasted for 195 seconds. After that, the buff of the power faded, leaving you with little health and no regeneration for a short while. The new version, introduced shortly after Issue 11, lasts 20 seconds and has no Hit Point penalty or crash.
Source: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Moment_o...oment_of_Glory



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Nope, you're misinformed.

NPCs never got the new player version of this power, they still use the old one. This happens all the time (Behemoths still have the pre GDC Invulnerability aura).


 

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Yup MoG never got changed for the Paragon Protectors

Heck go and beat up one now, it STILL fires off the 'full heal followed by crash to low HP but with stupidly high resistances and defense' old school MoG which makes them a real pain in the backside for anyone non-psi to deal with or trivially easy for people with Psi to deal with (as was the way with old MoG).

As mentioned Behemoths still have old school Invincibility and Nemesis Lts still have ye olde Vengeance (you could only fire it off when YOU died, not when someone else did).


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano View Post
Yup MoG never got changed for the Paragon Protectors
Oh so very much this. I hate having to face PPs who get MoG off. It's a bit fun to try and defeat them fast, or mez them or do something that allows you to defeat them before they can activate it. It's frustrating as hell to be essentially unable to harm them for as long as their version of the power lasts. (They have a very, very early version of the power, which provides defense against everything. Even before the change to MoG quoted above, the prior player character version of MoG provided no Psi defense. The NPC version still does.)

Quote:
As mentioned Behemoths still have old school Invincibility and Nemesis Lts still have ye olde Vengeance (you could only fire it off when YOU died, not when someone else did).
The thing that makes me really jealous is the +DEF most critters still get from using their Cloaking Device clones. How my Blaster would love if his did that.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

My 2 cents here...suppose you like steamrolling AND a challenge? Some nights,I like to grab one of my 50s and lay waste to everything in my path or everything that might be in my path or.....well you get the idea.
Some nights I like to do Apex or Tin Mage,which at the moment are the hard TFs. They are challenging for me and I enjoy it.
To me,it doesn't have to be a either/or situation. It just has to fit what I feeling like doing.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
Doing things solo tends to keep the challenge alive I've found.

For example last night I ran the Incarnate arc on my Plant/Emp at 0x3 and that was a fun challenge, I managed to do it without dying too (with quite a bit of running away from Honoree and the good Captain which separated them and meant I could take them down individually).

Then afterwards I joined an 8 man PuG running +3 radio missions and it was horrific (for them) and a breeze for us.

So if you're really pining for that challenge try soloing something out of your comfort zone.
There's very little out of my confort zone tbh.

It is a decent solution and therefore I also do solo a lot, from simple things like my tips on high rep without a whole team to make it too easy again to tougher challenges like a solo MoKhan and solo MoITF recently.
But the point of this thread was to discuss the matter a bit more generally, rather than for me personally to figure out by what means I can at least get some challenge back.

As it currently stands I agree with you these things are good fun and keep things interesting though. Because of that I'm also by no means anywhere near getting bored of the game or anything, but still those thoughts as outlined in the OP keep crossing my mind every once in a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano View Post
Now secondary to this and mentioned in the above paragraph is 'Challenging for how long?'

Take Augustus at the end of the ITF, when first released to live servers he was quite a bit of a challenge but fairly sharpish, people worked out basic strategies for him to the point where everyone knows how to deal with that scenario now and he nolonger presents a challenge.

World of Warcraft for example, there are very few raid bosses that are constantly challenging, especially in vanilla, most of it is basically learning to do the right 'dance'. Do this now, now do this when the boss does X, move out of the fire. Once you both know and outgear the encounter it nolonger becomes challenging.
This is an interesting point. I didn't mention it explicitly in the OP, but this is exactly one of those things I have my doubts about.
Generally speaking the idea here is to add new more challenging content, tailored to the latest developments in character potential, in parallel to said developments in character potential.
Old content becomes easy for characters that have already surpassed the potential for which that particular content was designed, but new content is a new challenge.

In my experience this has gone a little out of balance over the course of several of the most recent content additions and I expect this trend to follow through in i20. It seems that characters grow so much more powerful so quickly the new content being added at the same time just can't keep up with it.
Apex and Tin Mage didn't pose a challenge for a while (yes, the first evening maybe), they were steamrolled from the start.


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
I find myself increasingly uninterested in most high level task forces because, as you stated, it's just a roll-over with a swarm of +1 defense-capped alphas just making it a snooze. That's not a criticism of the players but just the fact that the mudflation of other games has caught up with CoH. I suppose our focus is supposed to be on the new trials now and the old TFs are something to do before getting your incarnate stuff.
I would partially blame that on the players, for running everything on the default difficulty, and partially on the developers, for giving people no real incentive to raise it. I absolutely love that the Tin Mage and Apex TFs are locked at +4. It forces people to run as a team, not just to solo everything until they get to an AV, and I say this as someone who has several characters who can just solo everything short of an AV on a standard pre-Incarnate TF run.

Solo, I don't miss the challenge so much, because even with the level shift and my super rare and billions of inf worth of IOs +4/x8 Arachnos can still kill me.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Solo, I don't miss the challenge so much, because even with the level shift and my super rare and billions of inf worth of IOs +4/x8 Arachnos can still kill me.
Even then you have to be careful you name the right group.

Arachnos, yes, but my tank has no problem with +4x8 Nemesis or Malta these days and even Rularuu took an epic 5 minute battle to kill it on +4x8 - what the heck is up with that?


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |