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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Personally i would start this plot with the Villain trying to steal the materials to make such bombs. This gives the Heroes a hook as they respond to the first break in to the goverment lab, pick up the clues and follow the trail. Then you have the fun of the heroes trying to keep the story out of the papers to avoid widescale panic. This then keeps the plot limited to the orginal heroes, plus any they call in to help. All other heroes either do not know or are helping by keeping the story secret and making everything appear normal by doing their normal stuff.
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The chilling thing is you don't need to rob a government lab to do stuff like that, as NCIS said in a frankly comforting and totally unlike a normal fox shows hysteria, terrorists can get the material from all over the place, like dentists for example :P
But yes I was thinking more of a gas rather than explosions.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
Do you really need to target Atlas Statue? You can't make something meaningful for the players to worry over that's off in a bit of the city we don't usually get to see? If you're targeting game landmarks for the 'shock' effect of doing it, then that's the problem right there. There's nothing wrong with 'using' the game world, just stop trying to break it. |
What about say a model making themed villain, who plans to shrink and steal major world landmarks so that his scale replicas of cities will finally be complete?
He may or may not travel by blimp as well.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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You're telling me that quirky, loud and eccentric characters can't be done? |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
That sort of removes a whole chunk out of the point of playing a villain, they are quirky, loud and eccentric.
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Most of my characters are one of those. Some are all three. Bio Bomb is a quirky, loud and eccentric villain that I don't play much due to not really liking PD. But they weren't obsessed with being 'a big deal'. They were already a big deal in their own head and if people didn't know who they are that's good. Because then she's get to tell them, in detail.
If the problem is "My Character can't be a world famous bad *** who everyone jumps at when they sneeze" well yeah. Tough luck there. But them's the breaks. You might think your character is all that, but chances are a lot of other people don't. Scale it down a bit and it's fine.
The Captain Seagull think sounds like a personal vendetta anyway. Why's it even need to be a national announcement? If they just want him to turn up, telling everyone is working at cross purposes.
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Which comes around to the problem of playing CoV, SuperVillains are dramatic, they do target land marks, they do go for the pointlessly flashy targets, the do try to wreck the Heroes backyard. |
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Right, now at least we're on the same page.
The problem with changing the world is it quickly stops becoming 'A few RP effects' and just gets rediculous, not to mention it won't be long before some bright spark then tries to ruin Galaxy Girl. Do you really need to target Atlas Statue? You can't make something meaningful for the players to worry over that's off in a bit of the city we don't usually get to see? If you're targeting game landmarks for the 'shock' effect of doing it, then that's the problem right there. There's nothing wrong with 'using' the game world, just stop trying to break it. |
Look at it this way, Mr Bad has failed to defeat Shadowe, way to much fire power, Theo, way to much sark , Red, way to Russian, Ni, way to many swords. Mr Bad wants some pay back, Plot blow up GG statue when no one is there, the plot writes itself. What else would Mr Bad pick , the Up n Away so there is no hand coffee shop? YES he will fail, but he even if he did blow it up the heroes would have it rebuilt by tea time. Heck Shadowe could pay for a new one from the small change in he jacket pocket. Added to which you can then RP a good reason for GG being a safe hang out with all the new security measures in place.
Villains do try to break the world, thats what they are there for.
If you want a game setting where they dont try to break the world what threats do you imagine your heroes are dealing with, it would all be Page 11 below the small adds stuff.
If you want to go down that route you are almost saying you only want to play CoH and all the villains are NPC's, at which point we get back to the whole Single Unionverse RP lore situation.
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Sounds like a fun idea, but you probably want to run that in a PnP game instead of CoH.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
What about say a model making themed villain, who plans to shrink and steal major world landmarks so that his scale replicas of cities will finally be complete?
He may or may not travel by blimp as well. |
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Ture , but it makes a far better plot if you have the heroes trying to save a Lab rather than the local branch of Boots.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
The chilling thing is you don't need to rob a government lab to do stuff like that, as NCIS said in a frankly comforting and totally unlike a normal fox shows hysteria, terrorists can get the material from all over the place, like dentists for example :P
But yes I was thinking more of a gas rather than explosions. |
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
The Captain Seagull think sounds like a personal vendetta anyway. Why's it even need to be a national announcement? If they just want him to turn up, telling everyone is working at cross purposes.
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Because they 'want' everyone to turn up? While everyone is off looking for Linda Lovely, the bad guy is I don't know stealing the secret recipe of up'n'away special dip, painting their own face on the Mona Lisa, uploading the X to the Y? Maybe they are getting hired to make it loud and obvious, while some other group does something?
Or maybe like the Riddler or Joker they are egotistical, maybe like Luthor they want the fall of their enemy to be visible and a spectacle. Maybe they just get off on it?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Well, you were after I mentioned that dirty bombs were a dumb idea, I'm sure. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
But yes I was thinking more of a gas rather than explosions.
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There aren't that many radioactive gasses. Radon would be the easiest to get since it's a natural hazard in the basements of some places around the world. It's also an alpha emitter, which pretty much means anyone breathing it is in for a bad time.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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In no particular order some targets of vengence that players not only might be willing to offer up, but even have been hit before.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Which comes around to the problem of playing CoV, SuperVillains are dramatic, they do target land marks, they do go for the pointlessly flashy targets, the do try to wreck the Heroes backyard.
Villains do try to break the world, thats what they are there for. If you want a game setting where they dont try to break the world what threats do you imagine your heroes are dealing with, it would all be Page 11 below the small adds stuff. If you want to go down that route you are almost saying you only want to play CoH and all the villains are NPC's, at which point we get back to the whole Single Unionverse RP lore situation. |
Shadowe: His Home. His Limo on the way to work. His buisness chains. His warehouses. His RnD staff when they're at home. Any number of people affaliated with his fairly massive buisness even.
Red: Russian Diplomats/Citizens. His home. His favourite newspaper stand (YOU MONSTERS)
Annette: Her old comic store, her home, her favourite nightclub or just plain Annette herself. Seriously Annette and Louise are the masters of getting shot/stabbed/blown up.
We don't really want bomb plots at GG and I roll my eyes when they turn up. It starts to get to the point where it's a little unbelievable that people dare to go there as it's meant to be a 'Safe' area where people can drop by and maybe kick off some plot, do some fun investigative brainstorm and planning or introduce a new character. Hard to do any of that when the ominous threat of death hangs over it and people are getting gorily murdered on it's steps every other week.
Yes there are Villains that try to break the world but they're generally quite boring villains. There's no substance to them. The Joker is no doubt the main culprit of think it's a good idea, but honestly he's interesting for reasons beyond mindless destruction. He's obsessed with Batman while also being his antithesis, he reinvents his character at a whim, he's got a whiplash mood and he scares other Villains because he's unpredictable and just plain creepy.
If anything it's his petty crimes that are the best, like trying to ruin Commissioner Gordon's sanity by shooting Barbara or murdering a dentist after he fixed his smile, to get back at Barbara for ruining it in the first place and making her doubt her choice to let him live.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
Well, you were after I mentioned that dirty bombs were a dumb idea, I'm sure.
There aren't that many radioactive gasses. Radon would be the easiest to get since it's a natural hazard in the basements of some places around the world. It's also an alpha emitter, which pretty much means anyone breathing it is in for a bad time. |
Actually I was thinking about that Hoohah with the Russian spy and the polonium poisoning, when the papers were like 'any one who sat near this man might be radioactive, don't sit next to people on the bus they might be radioactive! Panic you fools panic!'
That and the episode of NCIS where the weapons contractor tried to make a fake/real terror attack in the US so the government would definitely pay his contract.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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The problem you've got there is wanting everyone to turn up to an event when some people don't want to be involved with certain plots. Not leaving them an 'opt out' that doesn't feel incredibly contrived is irritating at it's best as it's making thier character look heartless/stupid/lazy.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Because they 'want' everyone to turn up? While everyone is off looking for Linda Lovely, the bad guy is I don't know stealing the secret recipe of up'n'away special dip, painting their own face on the Mona Lisa, uploading the X to the Y? Maybe they are getting hired to make it loud and obvious, while some other group does something?
Or maybe like the Riddler or Joker they are egotistical, maybe like Luthor they want the fall of their enemy to be visible and a spectacle. Maybe they just get off on it? |
You can do all three of those characters easily without breaking the above two rules. Especially the Riddler. The Riddler is small time, the Joker is obsessed with what Batman thinks of him not the world and Lex Luthor is far too suave a guy to be blowing up landmarks.
Yes it requires some changes. Comics aren't RP, they won't translate directly if you try to do that. There's got to be concessions to make it fun for everyone and playing nice with the toys you're all given is a basic part of that.
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Which i think brings us to the fundamental issue of different people enjoying different things and wanting different experiences, and it is near impossible to find some thing that keeps both sides happy, rather than both side grumpy. I do think we have to be brave and accept that we cannot all fit into a one size fits all Unionverse, and at least agree to area where we can work apart on what we prefer.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
In no particular order some targets of vengence that players not only might be willing to offer up, but even have been hit before.
Shadowe: His Home. His Limo on the way to work. His buisness chains. His warehouses. His RnD staff when they're at home. Any number of people affaliated with his fairly massive buisness even. Red: Russian Diplomats/Citizens. His home. His favourite newspaper stand (YOU MONSTERS) Annette: Her old comic store, her home, her favourite nightclub or just plain Annette herself. Seriously Annette and Louise are the masters of getting shot/stabbed/blown up. We don't really want bomb plots at GG and I roll my eyes when they turn up. It starts to get to the point where it's a little unbelievable that people dare to go there as it's meant to be a 'Safe' area where people can drop by and maybe kick off some plot, do some fun investigative brainstorm and planning or introduce a new character. Hard to do any of that when the ominous threat of death hangs over it and people are getting gorily murdered on it's steps every other week. Yes there are Villains that try to break the world but they're generally quite boring villains. There's no substance to them. The Joker is no doubt the main culprit of think it's a good idea, but honestly he's interesting for reasons beyond mindless destruction. He's obsessed with Batman while also being his antithesis, he reinvents his character at a whim, he's got a whiplash mood and he scares other Villains because he's unpredictable and just plain creepy. If anything it's his petty crimes that are the best, like trying to ruin Commissioner Gordon's sanity by shooting Barbara or murdering a dentist after he fixed his smile, to get back at Barbara for ruining it in the first place and making her doubt her choice to let him live. |
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Been done before, defences have been beefed up, but if someone wants to try to put the splat on Huntington Manor, they are more than welcome to. If plot actually needs it to be damaged or destroyed, I am even happy to offer up suggestions on how to do it. Otherwise, anyone is welcome to give it their best shot.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
In no particular order some targets of vengence that players not only might be willing to offer up, but even have been hit before.
Shadowe: His Home. |
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| His Limo on the way to work. |
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| His buisness chains. His warehouses. |
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| His RnD staff when they're at home. Any number of people affaliated with his fairly massive buisness even. |
Basically, I didn't make a big company for the purpose of locking people out of causing trouble - it's there to be the appropriate victim and target.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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I thought my two rules cover it fairly well. You said you were unhappy because your Villains couldn't "Break things". I provided a fair number of examples of things they could break. Why's it still an issue?
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Which i think brings us to the fundamental issue of different people enjoying different things and wanting different experiences, and it is near impossible to find some thing that keeps both sides happy, rather than both side grumpy. I do think we have to be brave and accept that we cannot all fit into a one size fits all Unionverse, and at least agree to area where we can work apart on what we prefer.
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Thanks Shadowe! For backing me up on this.
Obviously communication with the player first is important, but if they're interested in your plot I imagine most people would be eager to offer something up. We all love a chance for our characters to get angry over losing something.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
I thought my two rules cover it fairly well. You said you were unhappy because your Villains couldn't "Break things". I provided a fair number of examples of things they could break. Why's it still an issue?
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i think you might be confusing the spectacle with the act, now some one might want as part of a plot to launch a blimp that flies around broadcasting a threat the city will be attacked unless some one can answer...
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Now the gas part doesn't have to occur, even if the whole thing goes tits up, because perhaps if we put on our Adam West hats we get...
"Why the chicken cross the road?"
"Holy smokes Batman what does that mean?"
"Ahhh, the chicken no doubt refers to Maltese Falcon, known to criminals as 'the big chicken', now the crossing no doubt refers to the church of the same name. To the Batmobile Robin, the attack is false, Riddler plans to steal the Maltese Falcon as it's transported by armoured car over on fith and main, he'll be dressed as a nun. Once again you obsession has proven your down fall Edward."
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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People could even get a two for one deal with a little research, as since her own warehouse in Peregrine Island was firebombed, Ellie's now renting one of Richard's warehouses in Springfield, Illinois for her online fashion boutique. I don't have a problem with that either, just like Shad doesn't! (Though I'd ask for a PM beforehand...)|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
Lumping these two together, because they're basically the same thing - HELL YES. If someone wants to attack properties owned by Huntington International, they're more than welcome to (including theft of military hardware and any number of other funky gadgets and gizmos - heck, he has a production suit of battle-armour ready, so if a new "hero" wants to "find" one, that's fine by me!). About the only restriction I'd put on it is that I be warned in advance if it's the lab in IP. Other'n that, make stuff up! Huntington own stuff all over the world, and in several zones in Paragon. Prime bait.
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There's also her yahct, the White Lady, berthed at pier 11, Founders Falls Marina, and her car (a customized Mustang), stored at a private parking garage nearby. She loves both of them and would be majorly bleeped at losing them!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Got to say, I still think Fans' "two rules" pretty much cover the things that people consider "too much".
1) Things that essentially require a response from everyone. If it would trigger a drastic response from non-heroes (fleeing the city, rioting, armed militia, nationwide manhunt), then it's probably too much.
2) Things that change the game-world in a way that isn't supported by the game itself (destroying the Freedom Corps building, knocking down the Atlas Statue, killing Statesman).
Now, I will point out that if you (generic "you") ask everyone to accept scaffolding up around the Atlas Statue for a fortnight because a piece of plot you ran damaged it, then I think most people would be okay with that. That doesn't subtract anything from the game world, it adds to it in a realistic and reasonable fashion, it's only temporary, and it adds verisimilitude.
Is that the guideline? Add, don't subtract? I know that's way too general to be a rule, but as I think about it, I think it's a good way to look at things.
I've added Huntington Technologies to the game world. Someone might add scaffolding to the Atlas statue for a while. Even the developers have added Praetorians.
However, if someone tried to subtract the entire civilian population of King's Row, it would cause problems.
Thoughts?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
^ That wouldn't be an issue for me. Add, not subtract, is usually reasonably safe in most things, depending on scale.
In fact, the "Must be ignorable" rule is, I think, being misunderstood or misrepresented a little. For me, at least, what this actually means that large plots are fine, as long as the plot owner provides a hook so that my chars can safely say "Ah, I see heroes X, Y and Z are on the case. I'll leave it in their capable hands then."
Presenting everyone with a fait acompli, such as a sudden explosion and a very large number of deaths, isn't ignorable in this sense. Every hero who hears it would almost certainly respond, at the very least to get down there and start helping with relief efforts (this is also one reason why we shouldn't incorporate RL disasters into the game world).
However, presenting everyone with a PLAN to cause a sudden explosion and lots of deaths? If it starts at the initial stages of procuring materials etc, then that's totally fine. It's simple to say that there are heroes out there with far more expertise that could better handle the situation, should people not want to be involved.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Simple ... those are not the things Mr Bad wants to break, all of Shadowe's examples are fine, but limited to him, Mr Bad want to get back at everyone, and make a headline on the news to show up those pesky heroes, that is the sort of character he is |
Originally Posted by Fanservice
I thought my two rules cover it fairly well. You said you were unhappy because your Villains couldn't "Break things". I provided a fair number of examples of things they could break. Why's it still an issue?
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You might find the joker type villain boring, but others may not. We need to be able to agree to make space for each other to play the game they want to play.
Let us be honest here, what percent of the RP population are even reading this thread let alone posting. Hands up all those who RP in Pok D, or in the Corp, or CotBC, or Foundry et al. how many people are having an issue with plots that use named loactions ? and how many are just getting on with thier own plots and not tell the rest of the server
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
^ That wouldn't be an issue for me. Add, not subtract, is usually reasonably safe in most things, depending on scale.
In fact, the "Must be ignorable" rule is, I think, being misunderstood or misrepresented a little. For me, at least, what this actually means that large plots are fine, as long as the plot owner provides a hook so that my chars can safely say "Ah, I see heroes X, Y and Z are on the case. I'll leave it in their capable hands then." Presenting everyone with a fait acompli, such as a sudden explosion and a very large number of deaths, isn't ignorable in this sense. Every hero who hears it would almost certainly respond, at the very least to get down there and start helping with relief efforts (this is also one reason why we shouldn't incorporate RL disasters into the game world). However, presenting everyone with a PLAN to cause a sudden explosion and lots of deaths? If it starts at the initial stages of procuring materials etc, then that's totally fine. It's simple to say that there are heroes out there with far more expertise that could better handle the situation, should people not want to be involved. |
Yes i think this cover what A) is doable with in the game, and B) considers that fact that people want to be able to pick what and when they are involved in.
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Mr Bad wanting to get back at everyone breaks Rule 1. I thought you were agreeing on that one? If destroying GG is literally the only thing you can think of to get back at a group of people, you're just not thinking very hard.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Simple ... those are not the things Mr Bad wants to break, all of Shadowe's examples are fine, but limited to him, Mr Bad want to get back at everyone, and make a headline on the news to show up those pesky heroes, that is the sort of character he is
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| You might find the joker type villain boring, but others may not. We need to be able to agree to make space for each other to play the game they want to play. |
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| Let us be honest here, what percent of the RP population are even reading this thread let alone posting. Hands up all those who RP in Pok D, or in the Corp, or CotBC, or Foundry et al. how many people are having an issue with plots that use named loactions ? and how many are just getting on with thier own plots and not tell the rest of the server |
Obviously if your plot doesn't involve the rest of the server, you can pretty much do what you like. Long as you're self aware enough to realise that just because you did it in private RP, doesn't mean everyone not involved will later accept what you did.
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Originally Posted by Shadowe
and it adds verisimilitude.
Thoughts? |
"Quick to the Bat-Dictionary ..."
"Dang that Shadowe not only wise but with a huge vocabulary as well ..."
Odd how a debate on how to blow things up comes around to a rule/guideline/idea of Adding
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Apologies, it was not intened to be any sort of blow Fans, all i was trying to point out is huge amounts of RP goes on with out any of us knowing about it, we do not keep track of what other RP circles are up to, so one event by one group has no real effect on another.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Mr Bad wanting to get back at everyone breaks Rule 1. I thought you were agreeing on that one? If destroying GG is literally the only thing you can think of to get back at a group of people, you're just not thinking very hard.
Sure, but forcing people to take part in something they honestly don't want to take part in is not very good behaviour in any medium. Pretty cheap blow. If you don't care what the people posting here think then don't post here. Also misrepresenting the argument as this is not about plots "Using named locations", which is fine, it's about plots "Destroying named locations" Obviously if your plot doesn't involve the rest of the server, you can pretty much do what you like. Long as you're self aware enough to realise that just because you did it in private RP, doesn't mean everyone not involved will later accept what you did. |
We have agreed with your Point one, it just the detail and scope of Point two, and how it is very limiting from some points of view.
However i think we hav emoved on a bit now with Shadowe's and FFM's post and the ADD concept. which as a basis rule of thumb does look workable.
*Pulls up a chair, sipping his can of Evil-Aid*