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Agincourt gets blown up like six or seven times 1-50, if it can get rebuilt quick enough to invite a 'major' world heroine over after being smashed up by some villains.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
God you're killing me here. This is such a simple point, how can you miss it so badly? |
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
The Game isn't immune to silly plots either.
Or plots which happen yet don't.
I could reel off a big list, I really could.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
The Game isn't immune to silly plots either.
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it's fairly easy to understand level 20 time wise happens before level 30 and so on.
So Agincourt being destroyed at level 25 could of been rebuilt by level 30, since there is no actual time period told to us.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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It is simple and fine if it also works the other way, dont name drop where your character lives works et al and dont use it as a reason to block someones ploting . While i fully argree no one is going to blow up the Atlas Statue, it is just the target a baddy plot would pick, which hero is going to rush off to save the "oh that chap who had ice powers " statue. The threat of damaging Atlas gives the plotage flavour and is something that people know and can react to.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
No! No. You don't understand. You are missing the point.
Don't blow up things which have a physical presence in game. Don't destroy Agincourt. Don't topple the Atlas Statue. Don't shrink and steal Freedom Corps. That's it. That's all this is about. You're making it way, way more complicated than it needs to be. It's got nothing to do with people's characters 'claiming' an area. It's about not changing the game world in a way that should be physically represented but isn't. That's all this is about. Your example with Agincourt isn't "My character works and Agincourt so you can't blow it up" and is more "You can't blow Agincourt up, as it'll remain unexploded in game. So don't blow it up" God you're killing me here. This is such a simple point, how can you miss it so badly? |
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You missed the point.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
It is simple and fine if it also works the other way, dont name drop where your character lives works et al and dont use it as a reason to block someones ploting . While i fully argree no one is going to blow up the Atlas Statue, it is just the target a baddy plot would pick, which hero is going to rush off to save the "oh that chap who had ice powers " statue. The threat of damaging Atlas gives the plotage flavour and is something that people know and can react to.
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It has nothing to do with where your character works.
Nooooone. You can make that out to be the problem, but it's not and never has been. So it's a bit pointless to do so. My character NOT being there doesn't make it any less of a bad idea, because it's not in any way related to the problem.
Just to clarify Omy.
Recluse may be arrested at the end of the STF, but it might as well not of happened since the current cannon events have him running the Rogue Islands still as well as being 'mankinds' greatest ally against the Well.
Both of which would be hard to do if the STF ending was cannon to the game :-/
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Which belive it or not was my bloody point!
Just because in a TF or late game arc we can beat up or arrest somthng doesn't mean it sticks in cannon for the game does it? That was the entire point I was trying to argue.
Just because somthing happens in game it doesn't necesserly make it cannon, I wish it did, I really wish it did, it would make things so much easier for me, but there we go, this is the issue.
At 50 it does become quite the cluster **** for sure, prior to that it's okay. The level 20 stuff happens time line wise before the level 30 stuff and so on.
But at 50 we have people being controlled by the well, while at the same time being kidnapped, assaulted by Arachnos soldiers and iniating a team to take down a rival all supposedly taking time in the same time period.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Sorry Fans, it was getting too late fro my poor brain to cope with even simple..|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
You missed the point.
It has nothing to do with where your character works. Nooooone. You can make that out to be the problem, but it's not and never has been. So it's a bit pointless to do so. My character NOT being there doesn't make it any less of a bad idea, because it's not in any way related to the problem. |
So ...if it is so simple can you put it down in one clear pargraph and expalin what is wrong with using the Atlas Statue as the target of a supervillains plot, NOTE i said target i did not say claiming to have blown it up, we can look at such issues later.
I never said you can't have a 'plot' to blow it up, just that you can't physically blow it up. The outcome of that plot is that it is predestined to fail. If people are fine with that then by all means, go for it. However be aware that this is only one half of this discussion.
Basically, there's two 'problem' plots on show here.
1. Plots that would incite a city wide response. Mass Child Murder. Nuclear Bomb Threats. Giant Alien Spaceships with Planet Busters. These are plots a character can't really justify ignoring because they're simply too huge in their impact on the city.
2. Outcomes of plots that leave things in a state that the game world flatly contradicts. Bulldozing Perez Park. Toppling Atlas Statue. Turning Kings Row into Glass. Murdering Statesman. That sort of thing.
I'd elaborate on this, but it seems I need to be sure on what this discussion is about as people keep moving the goalposts. Do you have any problem with the above two rules?
Just the nuclear bomb one nothing wrong with it being a threat that the heroes defuse is there?
I mean that's a storyline from a mission right there.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Read the first line of that rule, it's fairly important. If it's something the city doesn't know about it's fine (Though again, pre-destined to fail). If someone threatens to Nuke the city unless thier demands are met, or is discovered to be trying to do that, then it's no longer ignorable.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Just the nuclear bomb one nothing wrong with it being a threat that the heroes defuse is there?
I mean that's a storyline from a mission right there. |
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Which means it's fine when it's something that a group of heroes found a clue for, or someone on a pirate radio band broadcast the threat. But when it's someone telepathically contacting the whole city to tell them about the bomb, or a news broadcast on CNN (or any other situation where everyone would be aware of it), then it's too much.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Just the nuclear bomb one nothing wrong with it being a threat that the heroes defuse is there?
I mean that's a storyline from a mission right there. |
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Originally Posted by Shadowe
Which means it's fine when it's something that a group of heroes found a clue for, or someone on a pirate radio band broadcast the threat. But when it's someone telepathically contacting the whole city to tell them about the bomb, or a news broadcast on CNN (or any other situation where everyone would be aware of it), then it's too much.
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How about this one, some one uses small dirty bombs in several locations across the city, they don't cause massive damage, but do result in several dozen perhaps a hundred people getting radiation poisoning. They do this to frame the super hero lover who dumped them, that hero being a member of the nuclear ninety and those locations being regular places they visit.
Obviously the media would cover it in the same hysterical fox news way that it'd be covered in the real world, so is that too large scale?
Personally I'd say that was an okay plot, a chance for the framed hero to prove their innocence while trying to avoid a manhunt. A few heroes helping him, a few hunting him and perhaps even a rogue or villain trying to manipulate the panic.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
Read the first line of that rule, it's fairly important. If it's something the city doesn't know about it's fine (Though again, pre-destined to fail). If someone threatens to Nuke the city unless thier demands are met, or is discovered to be trying to do that, then it's no longer ignorable.
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That sort of removes a whole chunk out of the point of playing a villain, they are quirky, loud and eccentric. Essentially saying that "No you character can't hijack a news feed to challenge Captain Seagull to a city wide scavenger hunt, with his on off newspaper report Linda Lovely as the final prize, that's too large." means villains should be little more than bank robbers.
And not even clever bank robbers, no creating a big distraction in Steel Canyon, so you can rob the bank over in Talos.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
You got to realise Paragon's news is probably a bit more blaise about this sort of thing. I'd say unless you say the news went insane, it probably wouldn't. It's still fairly boderline though.
Several dozen? That's fine. Few Hundred? Probably going over the top, there's no reason for the number to be that high. It doesn't really serve the plot any better than several dozen and would indeed get people fairly hysterical.
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In theory, this is fine, but it has more holes in it than a pair of fishnet tights. As usual, you aren't thinking it through.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
How about this one, some one uses small dirty bombs in several locations across the city, they don't cause massive damage, but do result in several dozen perhaps a hundred people getting radiation poisoning. They do this to frame the super hero lover who dumped them, that hero being a member of the nuclear ninety and those locations being regular places they visit.
Obviously the media would cover it in the same hysterical fox news way that it'd be covered in the real world, so is that too large scale? Personally I'd say that was an okay plot, a chance for the framed hero to prove their innocence while trying to avoid a manhunt. A few heroes helping him, a few hunting him and perhaps even a rogue or villain trying to manipulate the panic. |
Dirty bombs are bombs. They are obvious. They rely on explosives to spread their payload. They do not fit the requirements of the plot because they obviously are nothing to do with the hero being framed. They are a terrorist tool and would be reported as such.
Now, switch to using a radioactive gas, Radon for example, and you're talking. Far more subtle. Harder to detect. No immediately obvious source. Far easier to have someone link victims to locations to hero. Of course, that's a very slow burn plot, no big bang, no hysteria, no controversy, but it would actually work.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Ok point 1, yes i think we all agree that unless you have global agreement to such a plot that it need to be moved to an area that it can be reasonable ingnored..say France |
Originally Posted by Fanservice
I never said you can't have a 'plot' to blow it up, just that you can't physically blow it up. The outcome of that plot is that it is predestined to fail. If people are fine with that then by all means, go for it. However be aware that this is only one half of this discussion.
Basically, there's two 'problem' plots on show here. 1. Plots that would incite a city wide response. Mass Child Murder. Nuclear Bomb Threats. Giant Alien Spaceships with Planet Busters. These are plots a character can't really justify ignoring because they're simply too huge in their impact on the city. 2. Outcomes of plots that leave things in a state that the game world flatly contradicts. Bulldozing Perez Park. Toppling Atlas Statue. Turning Kings Row into Glass. Murdering Statesman. That sort of thing. I'd elaborate on this, but it seems I need to be sure on what this discussion is about as people keep moving the goalposts. Do you have any problem with the above two rules? |
, or the plot has to have a well reasoned cop-out option. No one should be forced into a plot.Point 2 is a bit more debateable, but only for the small scale events, clearly turning Kings Row to glass is a no no, as is killing Statesman. However on a smaller scale would it be to much to ask RPers to imagine the Atlas Statue surrounded by scafolding for a couple of weeks for repairs ??, after all we ask each other to imagione a lot of RP things. Now yes i do agree the perminate removal of Atlas is not viable, and any damage to it should only be considered the end result of the Heroes failing every mission in the plot arc, and yes the plot needs to be carefully constructed.
My point about the Atlas example is its fun thing to attack, targeting Generic Statue 23 just doesnt make a good plot hook. We are provided with the game setting , we should try to make the most of it. I dont think it too much to ask players to imagine a few simple RP event effects, which do not limit anyones personal RP. Glass Kings Row would limit such presonal RP, Atlas Statue under repair for a few days doesnt.
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Clever bank robbers would go rob a bank in Maryland where there aren't a dozen heroes queing up outside each bank for their turn to save it.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
And not even clever bank robbers, no creating a big distraction in Steel Canyon, so you can rob the bank over in Talos.
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Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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The thought I'd given into it wasn't you know boom, boom, boom, but slow radiation poisoning. Perhaps our 'rogue' radiation hero is a bus boy at a restaurant or a janitor at a busy transport hub. A sort of radioactive Typhoid Mary.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
You got to realise Paragon's news is probably a bit more blaise about this sort of thing. I'd say unless you say the news went insane, it probably wouldn't. It's still fairly boderline though.
Several dozen? That's fine. Few Hundred? Probably going over the top, there's no reason for the number to be that high. It doesn't really serve the plot any better than several dozen and would indeed get people fairly hysterical. |
Perhaps having been transformed into an undead by a cursed Magpie, the heroes ex wants to use the panic so that he/she can now steal the Night's Eye diamonds, as the infamous jewel thief The Magpire!
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
Clever bank robbers would go rob a bank in Maryland where there aren't a dozen heroes queing up outside each bank for their turn to save it.
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The bank in Maryland doesn't have the Jeweled Scarab of Amuhut Khan in its safety deposit box, so the Masked Mummy has no reason to be robbing that bank
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Right, now at least we're on the same page.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
My point about the Atlas example is its fun thing to attack, targeting Generic Statue 23 just doesnt make a good plot hook. We are provided with the game setting , we should try to make the most of it. I dont think it too much to ask players to imagine a few simple RP event effects, which do not limit anyones personal RP. Glass Kings Row would limit such presonal RP, Atlas Statue under repair for a few days doesnt.
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The problem with changing the world is it quickly stops becoming 'A few RP effects' and just gets rediculous, not to mention it won't be long before some bright spark then tries to ruin Galaxy Girl.
Do you really need to target Atlas Statue? You can't make something meaningful for the players to worry over that's off in a bit of the city we don't usually get to see? If you're targeting game landmarks for the 'shock' effect of doing it, then that's the problem right there.
There's nothing wrong with 'using' the game world, just stop trying to break it.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
How about this one, some one uses small dirty bombs in several locations across the city, they don't cause massive damage, but do result in several dozen perhaps a hundred people getting radiation poisoning. They do this to frame the super hero lover who dumped them, that hero being a member of the nuclear ninety and those locations being regular places they visit.
Obviously the media would cover it in the same hysterical fox news way that it'd be covered in the real world, so is that too large scale? Personally I'd say that was an okay plot, a chance for the framed hero to prove their innocence while trying to avoid a manhunt. A few heroes helping him, a few hunting him and perhaps even a rogue or villain trying to manipulate the panic. |
Personally i would start this plot with the Villain trying to steal the materials to make such bombs. This gives the Heroes a hook as they respond to the first break in to the goverment lab, pick up the clues and follow the trail. Then you have the fun of the heroes trying to keep the story out of the papers to avoid widescale panic. This then keeps the plot limited to the orginal heroes, plus any they call in to help. All other heroes either do not know or are helping by keeping the story secret and making everything appear normal by doing their normal stuff.
Aye, and if I have a character at Agnicourt, isn't that just more of a nice plothook to add more potential RP goodness to your plot anyway? I see it more as an advantage and way to make things better, or least to reach understanding with someone rather then view it as an obstical stopping you from doing things as you want.
Our plots should always be dismissable, or not world threatening, like the recent Arachnos/LOyalists cuffle, it had a lot of particpants but was ultimatly smaller scale then the Canonical Arachnos Raids into Preatoria so it all fitted, with people being able to not take part if they didn't want to, and if they heard it in conversation tehy can go "Ah, that sounds reasonable".