Cold usually gets attention for its buffs rather than debuffs.....but having played a lot of rads and Colds.....I will take the Cold first. The shields and amazing debuffs combined are hard to turn down.
And you didn't even mention the -regen from Benumb.
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Eh, totally forgot the -regen, thanks for pointing it out |
Originally Posted by Lachlin
Cold usually gets attention for its buffs rather than debuffs.....but having played a lot of rads and Colds.....I will take the Cold first. The shields and amazing debuffs combined are hard to turn down.
And you didn't even mention the -regen from Benumb. |
Edited.The buffs are a totally different matter - with Arctic Fog for self and the shields, the buffs are damn good too - though on buffs, Cold can be beaten by Therm, Sonic or Kin, which is why I tend to look at it more as a crazy debuff set, with great buffs thrown in
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Rad and Dark are pretty high on the list.
Cold is one of, if not, the best.
But the one power that is underestimated the most is traps, Poison Trap with -1000% Regen
Put cold and traps oon the same team and the FFG adds to the +Def of Shields for squishies. and then the combined debuffs floor everything
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Oh traps is superb! I love that set - but there are two things about it which make it a 'bit' inferior to cold;|
Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
Rad and Dark are pretty high on the list.
Cold is one of, if not, the best. But the one power that is underestimated the most is traps, Poison Trap with -1000% Regen Put cold and traps oon the same team and the FFG adds to the +Def of Shields for squishies. and then the combined debuffs floor everything |
First, -resist; ALL other debuffs become redundant quite quickly, since they floor stuff and max the debuff. -Resist goes up to 300%
With 2 kins, if you can keep stuff at 300% -resist, you can well, have close to 600-700% damage for the entire team.
Last night I ran an STF, we had 4 colds, some other debuffs, one kin but 0 dps. Usually we run with at least 2+ dps to take full advantage of the kins + debuffers; our best run ever has been 29 minutes - this run was 31 minutes.
I had expected the run to be 35-40 simply because there was no major hitters to take advantage of the debuffs and +dmg, but just the -resist stacking, made so much of a difference that we almost did one of our better times missing anything that could really make a dent on the AV's.
Traps has high -resist, but lower than cold, _and is missing ALL the buffs, which is the second reason I would consider traps lower than Cold.
Edit: Rephase that ENTIRE post with Trick Arrow instead of traps - I have no idea why I confused the two, but I was talking about TA here, not traps
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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Your stats are off but i think cold is the best anyway.
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
In my opinion, it 'seems' to be cold.
With good recharge, this is what I see it doing, Between Heat Loss, Infrigidate, Benumb and Sleep (with an Achilles proc),
Looking how sleet fires several times a second, it is close to irresistible, which adds -def, making the chance of other debuffs not landing very low. To me it seems like that for ST debuffs, Cold really can't be beaten. Traps may give it a run for it's money, but I don't see it beating those numbers. Am I correct in my assumption here, or am I missing something? Thanks! |
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Which ones? Would like to correct them in the original post.
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Originally Posted by Mirage_Mage
Your stats are off but i think cold is the best anyway.
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Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Perhaps you didn't take snowstorm, but it has -travel speed, -fly, -recharge. It is a very hefty debuff that you can take very early in your career.
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Maybe i worded it wrong , what i mean is: the -93% tohit and the -fly are part of the secondary effects of benumb, in that there isn't any tohit debuff in beumb or -fly but rather it effects other peoples or enemy tohit debuffs and flight speed.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Which ones? Would like to correct them in the original post.
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Also i don't think you factored in Snow Storm in your -recharge and slow numbers but i could be mistaken. It does have -fly though :P
Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
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I'm fairly certain it's -tohit, at least that's what it said in the game.
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Originally Posted by Mirage_Mage
Maybe i worded it wrong , what i mean is: the -93% tohit and the -fly are part of the secondary effects of benumb, in that there isn't any tohit debuff in beumb or -fly but rather it effects other peoples or enemy tohit debuffs and flight speed.
Also i don't think you factored in Snow Storm in your -recharge and slow numbers but i could be mistaken. It does have -fly though :P |
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Radiation Emission is so good at debuffing that I can't even get amped to tell you about how good it is because just thinking about it debuffs my exuberance.
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
I'm fairly certain it's -tohit, at least that's what it said in the game.
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In game it says "-37.50% strength to tohit". That means it debuffs the target's powers affecting tohit, not tohit itself. Compare it to other powers which do debuff to hit like Flash Arrow which says "-5.00% tohit" or Dark Blast's Gloom "-7.50% tohit".
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Ah, that makes sense.|
Originally Posted by Rikis
In game it says "-37.50% strength to tohit". That means it debuffs the target's powers affecting tohit, not tohit itself. Compare it to other powers which do debuff to hit like Flash Arrow which says "-5.00% tohit" or Dark Blast's Gloom "-7.50% tohit".
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Taking that into account still, benumb does effectively nueter an enemy (of course, barring AV resistance).
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
The original post is also ignoring the effect of -resistance on -damage effects. Benumb can get you a lot more than -50% damage if you've already got that -80% resistance going before you use it. Assuming that the mob has no base resistance, with the Achilles Proc, Sleet, and Heat Loss first the net -damage puts the mob at the cap of -90% on a single Benumb.
Note that -damage effects and -resistance effects are both resisted by the current resistance of the target to that damage type.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
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My Favorite Debuff is my MasterMind.
Demon/Poison/Charge Mastery.
Caster
-9,38% to All... Corription, Lash, Crack Whip
Envenom: -22.50% Def, -30% Res, -50%Regen, Res Heal 15%(makes heals form allys or self heals weaker on target)
Weaken: -22.50% Dmg, -11.25% ToHit, -50% to 2nd Effects, -50% Strength to Tohit, -50% Strength to AttrEnd.
Neurotoxic Breath: -65% to Speed/Recharge 2x 25%Chance for 2Mag Hold
Noxious Gas: -15% Dmg, -22.50% Res, -15% Def, -7.50%, Small Chance to make Human Targets Puke
EM Pulse: -50% End(unslotted), -100% Reco, -1000% Regen, Mag 3Stun and 50% Chance for a extra mag.
---
Hellfire Demonling
-15% Res to All... Corruption, Hellfire, Breath of Hellfire
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Hellfire Gargoyle
-20% to All... Corruption, Breath of Hellfire.
---
Cold Demonling
-15% to Speed/Recharge... Ice Blot, Ice Blast, Frost Breath.
---
Demon Price
-25% to Speed/Recharge... Ice Blast, Ice Slash.
Chilling Embrace 87.50% to Speed, 50% to Recharge
Ice Sword 12.50% to Speed/Rechage
Block of Ice 37.50% to Speed/Rechage
Shiver 81.25% to Speed/Recharge.
---
Too lazy to do the math myself, it may not be top Debuff but its my fav to use.
Small note slainsteel, Infrigidate only Debuffs Fire Dmg, so 80% to fire while 50 to others.
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It also depends on what you are facing.
If you are facing AVs and hard to kill targets, rad, poison, dark, kin and cold are the best.
If you are facing large groups, storm, kin, TA, traps, and dark are better.
So in that regard, kin and dark are the "best" debuff sets.
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It's funny that many overlook it, but kinetics is a top tier AV debuffer- siphon speed is unresistable, so the 87% resistance to -speed/-recharge that AV's usually sport goes out the window. The only debuff AV's don't resist is -damage, so kinetics' siphon power (with fulcrum shift of course) really shines. Remember, kids, triple/quadruple slot your siphon power and spam that sucker like crazy! Add in the constant -regen that comes with transfusion spamming, you can really turn any AV battle around really quick-like. 
It's too bad most kinetics I come across seem to think they are buffers, and overlook the debuff stuff. 
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In many ways I would actually say Traps is better against AVs than groups. It works well enough against groups (especially if you have a lockdown proc in PGT) but it is by nature a somewhat stationary set. It really shines in longer fights (such as against AVs) simply because you can start double stacking the traps. Additionally PGT is the strongest -regen power in the game with it's only weakness being that needs the AV to be relatively stationary to get the full duration.|
Originally Posted by Cloud_Surge
It also depends on what you are facing.
If you are facing AVs and hard to kill targets, rad, poison, dark, kin and cold are the best. If you are facing large groups, storm, kin, TA, traps, and dark are better. So in that regard, kin and dark are the "best" debuff sets. |
Overall though I tend to agree that Cold Domination is probably the set with the best mix of buffs and debuffs. It's main weakness is it's reliance on recharge it has a worse native uptime than most of the other sets so unless you have an IO'd build or some outside buffs it won't have 100% uptime.
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Till you equip a rare spiritual |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In many ways I would actually say Traps is better against AVs than groups. It works well enough against groups (especially if you have a lockdown proc in PGT) but it is by nature a somewhat stationary set. It really shines in longer fights (such as against AVs) simply because you can start double stacking the traps. Additionally PGT is the strongest -regen power in the game with it's only weakness being that needs the AV to be relatively stationary to get the full duration.
Overall though I tend to agree that Cold Domination is probably the set with the best mix of buffs and debuffs. It's main weakness is it's reliance on recharge it has a worse native uptime than most of the other sets so unless you have an IO'd build or some outside buffs it won't have 100% uptime. |
With not particularly high recharge (not even perma-hasten pre-Alpha), with just the rare spiritual I am perma'ed on everything; Heat Loss, Benumb, several applications of Sleet.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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Actually a Dom's Drain Psyche slotted with good heals (5 Doctored Wounds set for example) + a Spiritual Core Paragon can take its -regen to over 1100%, just thought id throw that out there :P
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In many ways I would actually say Traps is better against AVs than groups. It works well enough against groups (especially if you have a lockdown proc in PGT) but it is by nature a somewhat stationary set. It really shines in longer fights (such as against AVs) simply because you can start double stacking the traps. Additionally PGT is the strongest -regen power in the game with it's only weakness being that needs the AV to be relatively stationary to get the full duration.
Overall though I tend to agree that Cold Domination is probably the set with the best mix of buffs and debuffs. It's main weakness is it's reliance on recharge it has a worse native uptime than most of the other sets so unless you have an IO'd build or some outside buffs it won't have 100% uptime. |
I have both maxed out Rad and Cold defenders, and I would say overall they are close enough that the difference is situational. The Rad is a bit better at debuffing whole spawns on a fast team, since its AoE -resist is up for every spawn no matter how fast you move, you don't have to worry about tohit checks on its main debuffs, and you don't have to spend a lot of time chasing people trying to recast shields. It also works great with a cheaper (i.e. less recharge) build, as its easier to get to perma-Hasten thanks to AM. In fact its pretty darned good on SOs, which I think is one reason for its popularity on end game TFs.
The Cold is a bit better when you get to one or two hard targets, as it has a wider variety of debuffs it can then apply. If you pair /sonic with the cold (in the case of a defender) I'd give even more of the edge to Cold, since it can stack higher with the -damage from Cold. It has the downside of needing a more expensive build with higher recharge to keep its debuffs fairly perma. Its also got the edge with some of the newer content like the Apex TF where everyone is scattered around, and shields protect much better then debuffs. But thats a point in favor of a buff, not the "best debuff set".
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That doesn't change my core point: you need more recharge to get cold perma than Rad/Traps. With the Alpha slot it's become easier to get that recharge but using Spiritual prevents you from using one of the other alphas.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Till you equip a rare spiritual
With not particularly high recharge (not even perma-hasten pre-Alpha), with just the rare spiritual I am perma'ed on everything; Heat Loss, Benumb, several applications of Sleet. |
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Originally Posted by Aquabladez
Actually a Dom's Drain Psyche slotted with good heals (5 Doctored Wounds set for example) + a Spiritual Core Paragon can take its -regen to over 1100%, just thought id throw that out there :P
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Reading this, I can't be sure if you know this, but Sleet's firing rapidly does not mean the Achilles proc has many chances to fire -- it checks once every 10 seconds, regardless of what Sleet is doing otherwise.
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
Between Heat Loss, Infrigidate, Benumb and Sleep (with an Achilles proc)
..... Looking how sleet fires several times a second, it is close to irresistible, which adds -def, making the chance of other debuffs not landing very low. |
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As ever I'd go for Rad, not because of its numbers but due to the fact that it is very easy to use. Cold is a very busy set, having to target locations, foes and friends means that you can find, at times, you are missing out on your offensive powers.
Rad on the other hand I find to be much simpler as all your powers can be fired off while targeting foes, with the exception of mutation and fallout (which although are good powers can be missed out).
In short, I'm a lazy player, Rad suits me down to the ground and I have a deep respect for those good cold toons out there that keep busy while I slap stuff in the face.
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I actually find rad more painful to work with unless fighting AV's. By the time all the debuffs land, the debuff target is often dead.
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Originally Posted by Guffy
As ever I'd go for Rad, not because of its numbers but due to the fact that it is very easy to use. Cold is a very busy set, having to target locations, foes and friends means that you can find, at times, you are missing out on your offensive powers.
Rad on the other hand I find to be much simpler as all your powers can be fired off while targeting foes, with the exception of mutation and fallout (which although are good powers can be missed out). In short, I'm a lazy player, Rad suits me down to the ground and I have a deep respect for those good cold toons out there that keep busy while I slap stuff in the face. |
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
In my opinion, it 'seems' to be cold.
With good recharge, this is what I see it doing,
Between Heat Loss, Infrigidate, Benumb and Sleep (with an Achilles proc),
Looking how sleet fires several times a second, it is close to irresistible, which adds -def, making the chance of other debuffs not landing very low.
To me it seems like that for ST debuffs, Cold really can't be beaten. Traps may give it a run for it's money, but I don't see it beating those numbers.
Am I correct in my assumption here, or am I missing something?
Thanks!
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense