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While true to some degree, in a game balanced for SOs, this isn't really the case. IO's have largely enabled all ATs to shine with copious amounts of +rech or +def, for example, which have served to close a lot of gaps between players builds. Playing solo without IO's, there is no way I'm alternating lightning rod/shield charge every 11ish seconds, while running around at the defense soft cap. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Ill gladly grant you that blaster have the largest number of AoE attacks but its like having the fastest car in the Lincoln tunnel at rush hour. Once you have enough AoE to kill the small stuff in a spawn the rest is well just wasted.
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With SO balance as the consideration, my attack chain would typically include a greater number of powers, and even then, it may not be seamless. In this regard, I can't say having access to them is a waste. Just the opposite, it provides more depth to the gameplay, by making power usage more situational.
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Single target the best theoretical claim was 350 dps for a fire/elec Frosticus with his illusion controller had 400+ dps realized And the best scrapper dps was around 300 realized |
This isn't to say other AT's can't dish it out-- but it doesn't disqualify blasters as offensive "juggernauts". A well played blaster (or player, rather) is an asset.
Well I finally had the opportunity to compare the theory to the reality this weekend. YMMV but from what I saw getting off non crashing nukes while there are still enemies still standing is at best problematic. Crashing nukes near impossible. Even aim and build up were difficult and had to be fired off while running from spawn to spawn cutting into the time they were available.
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Even with just SOs blasters had problems. Castle pulled one his as little as possible adjustments instead of adjusting to the correct amount in fixing the balance issues. Its really odd seeing he was perfectly willing to wail on brutes, BotZ, while leaving things like /Shield alone or his "fixes" to /fire.| While true to some degree, in a game balanced for SOs, this isn't really the case. IO's have largely enabled all ATs to shine with copious amounts of +rech or +def, for example, which have served to close a lot of gaps between players builds. Playing solo without IO's, there is no way I'm alternating lightning rod/shield charge every 11ish seconds, while running around at the defense soft cap. |
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| This is a bit misleading, as you're cherry picking specific power sets from an AT. My Earth/Ta or Electric/Sonic troller's, for example, will largely fall behind most blaster power sets, by comparison, and will most definitely fall behind my Fire/EM or DP/FM blasters in a head-to-head measure of damage in burst or DPS (with or without IOs). |
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In solo situations, with IOs maybe. But Ya know, my fire/fire blaster can deal more damage quicker on SOs then my fire/fire dom can on those same SOs. While i have to hold and control things with my dom before i can nuke freely, my blaster can just blaze/fire sword mobs and literally cut them to pieces.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I have scrappers that will destroy entire spawns one after the other much faster than a blaster will, I also have controllers and dominators that can keep up and do so with greater safety.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Comparing best of the best in sustained damage. Yes it is cherry picking but if I want to build a toon that does single target damage well that is exactly what anyone will do pick the best they can.
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I really don't think blasters have anything to worry about in the damage department overall.
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Cherry picking is valid in this particular case. If Blaster damage is just compensation for their dire and unique lack of utility/survivability, then it follows that all Blasters should be at the top of the damage charts. Heck, they should be blowing their competitors away, as an AT.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Comparing best of the best in sustained damage. Yes it is cherry picking but if I want to build a toon that does single target damage well that is exactly what anyone will do pick the best they can.
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Oh, if it were just a matter of one or two Blaster sets that don't perform, or one or two non-Blasters putting out exceptional amounts of damage, then I guess you could make the case that cherry-picked examples are fallacious. But that's not what we're looking at here, not even close.
We are discussing the flaws of an entire AT.
The truth is that Blaster single-target ranged damage is nothing to write home about. At the risk of sounding intolerant, I have to conclude that anyone who's truly excited over the prospect of, say, an Ice Blaster's ranged ST damage has never played a properly built Scrapper, Brute, VEAT, or Dominator. Hell, even some Tanker builds can match your average ranged Blaster's ST DPS.
Blaster AoE damage potential is often spectacular, but it's also heavily situation and support-dependent, more so than the AoE damage of almost any other AT. Blaster single-target melee damage is impressive; that much I'll grant. It's kind of silly to hang your hat on that, though, given that most of the targets against which DPS really matters can kill a melee-ranged Blaster in an eyeblink just with splash damage.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Again, you're presenting the Dom's extra capability as a weakness. Are you seriously saying that the Dom's damage is so inferior to the Blaster's that there's no way he could survive using the same playstyle? (Edit: To put it another way, are you seriously trying to say that the Blaster's damage is so much higher that his damage advantage constitutes a replacement for the Dominator's vast control ability?|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
In solo situations, with IOs maybe. But Ya know, my fire/fire blaster can deal more damage quicker on SOs then my fire/fire dom can on those same SOs. While i have to hold and control things with my dom before i can nuke freely, my blaster can just blaze/fire sword mobs and literally cut them to pieces.
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Do you dispute that your Fire/Fire Dom is a more capable soloer overall?
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The best comparison is overall. Are blasters being out performed in damage, overall. Yes there are specific powerset of other ATs combinations that can out perform other specific combinations of blaster ATs, but lets see a elec/shield solo a GM without temp powers. a fire/mental blaster can.... I really don't think blasters have anything to worry about in the damage department overall. |
Are you seriously disputing that Scrapper damage is Blaster-competitive in the general case? Or let's use your word -- "overall"?
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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IOs are part of the game and have been since I9.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
In solo situations, with IOs maybe. But Ya know, my fire/fire blaster can deal more damage quicker on SOs then my fire/fire dom can on those same SOs. While i have to hold and control things with my dom before i can nuke freely, my blaster can just blaze/fire sword mobs and literally cut them to pieces.
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| The best comparison is overall. Are blasters being out performed in damage, overall. Yes there are specific powerset of other ATs combinations that can out perform other specific combinations of blaster ATs, but lets see a elec/shield solo a GM without temp powers. a fire/mental blaster can.... |
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| I really don't think blasters have anything to worry about in the damage department overall. |
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with full f4 boosts.. Hell, empathy defenders can do pylons in under 2 unders now with t4 boosts.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
funny I looked at the pylon thread a little bit ago and saw a crab had managed to go over the 1200 dps mark
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That isn't a good thing
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
with full f4 boosts.. Hell, empathy defenders can do pylons in under 2 unders now with t4 boosts.
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Totally agree with you.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I think the true nukes ought to lose both the -end and the -recovery. I also think the recharge on them should be lowered. But I've thought that for a long time, a long time.
It could be interesting to lower the recharge to 300 seconds for defenders and corruptors but 240 seconds for blasters. |
"PvP Messiah"
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Why? Incarnate is the path to godhood, if a god can't solo an stationany object with 1 attack I would have serious concerns about that person actually becoming a god.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That isn't a good thing
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Why is it not a good thing that a Empathy *arguably the best buffing powerset in the game* can't keep their lore pets buffed long enough to take out a stationary target with limit attacks?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That isn't a good thing
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You have to keep in mind that Judgements aren't going to make blasters fade away, or take any thunder away from them. My archer still has Rain of Arrow which does about as much damage at base (and is affected by +dam) as any non-Ion judgement power, and is on about 1/3 the recharge. Ion is broken, that much is true, but the other powers really don't step on any toes.
If you really want to go there, Ageless makes kin's useless, especially at t4 boosts, where its perma, Rebirth makes healers useless (especially the +regen one), Barrier makes all +res and +def shields useless (again, at higher tiers once its perma) and clarity makes any mez protection useless (even toggles!)
Interface doesn't add enough to really affect anything, and while Lore is amazing, its just a DPS trinket you can use every 15 mins that lasts for 5 mins. If you don't kill your thingy within 5 mins, then you have to wait another 10 in order to try it again.
There are so many AoEs that do more damage then judgements on much faster recharges that it really won't affect blasters at all. Heck, the majority of those AoEs are available to blasters already. I think, aside from Shield Charge and Lighting Rod, the other powers that rank as high as Judgement powers (the 400-500 damage range) are ONLY available to blasters, due to AT scaling. A defender's Rain of Arrows isn't going to match a Judgements, and while a Corruptor's may get close, its only during Scourge.
Blasters already had to tools to clear large spawns in seconds, and while they have always been squishy to make up for it, using IOs as a metric is not what the Dev's have been doing. Just because IOs have been in the game for going on 11 issues, doesn't mean the Dev's are balancing around them. And once you peel back those IOs, blasters have the most available damaging powers in the game. No other AT has damage/damage as their powerset choices. Its usually only damage/ or /damage but never both like a blaster does.
Overall, blasters are performing just fine. They still do damage, they still make things melt, and they are still AoE kings.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
Why? Incarnate is the path to godhood, if a god can't solo an stationany object with 1 attack I would have serious concerns about that person actually becoming a god.
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Well for one thing part of that number is because emps are able to buff those pets and keep them alive and blasters really can't even with the new abilities. So you are left with the blaster as an AT that has a negligible dps advantage a survivability deficit to everything else in the game and is solidly in the same boat as melee ATs in buff/debuff capability.
The other big problem is that the game is ceasing to be game if you want to be a "GOD" and just bust stuff up, download a 3D environment, some scenery and go blow it away.
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You are arguing from lack of experience. Having rain of arrows on a league full of judgements is an exercise in frustration. Its even more annoying seeing as an archer has mediocre single target and almost all of it is smash/lethal. That is from experience.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
You have to keep in mind that Judgements aren't going to make blasters fade away, or take any thunder away from them. My archer still has Rain of Arrow which does about as much damage at base (and is affected by +dam) as any non-Ion judgement power, and is on about 1/3 the recharge. Ion is broken, that much is true, but the other powers really don't step on any toes.
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| If you really want to go there, Ageless makes kin's useless, especially at t4 boosts, where its perma, Rebirth makes healers useless (especially the +regen one), Barrier makes all +res and +def shields useless (again, at higher tiers once its perma) and clarity makes any mez protection useless (even toggles!) |
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| Interface doesn't add enough to really affect anything, and while Lore is amazing, its just a DPS trinket you can use every 15 mins that lasts for 5 mins. If you don't kill your thingy within 5 mins, then you have to wait another 10 in order to try it again. |
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There are so many AoEs that do more damage then judgements on much faster recharges that it really won't affect blasters at all. Heck, the majority of those AoEs are available to blasters already. I think, aside from Shield Charge and Lighting Rod, the other powers that rank as high as Judgement powers (the 400-500 damage range) are ONLY available to blasters, due to AT scaling. A defender's Rain of Arrows isn't going to match a Judgements, and while a Corruptor's may get close, its only during Scourge. |
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| Overall, blasters are performing just fine. They still do damage, they still make things melt, and they are still AoE kings. |
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There is one problem with this comment.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
If you really want to go there, Ageless makes kin's useless, especially at t4 boosts, where its perma, Rebirth makes healers useless (especially the +regen one), Barrier makes all +res and +def shields useless (again, at higher tiers once its perma) and clarity makes any mez protection useless (even toggles!)
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Destiny is varied, sure each one could step on another buff classes toes pushing them over the cap, however, not everyone has a specific buff, or every buff. What I mean is, while ageless steps on a kins toes (though not as far as damage is concerned) 1/4th the amount of people have it due to each tree being a worthy pick, and 1/2 the people even have destiny because it's a step up the incarnate ladder.
On the other hand you have judgment, which ALWAYS does huge AoE damage, in every tree. It is often the first slot anyone opens due to the popularity of the B.A.F. and it does comparably or better than most blasters set defining power (the nuke) does for what you use it for.
I don't agree that it makes blasters useless, after all, you get judgment too and I LOVE judgment. However, it does go a long way toward destroying the specific roll of a blaster on a team, huge AoE damage. However, the mobs are dead. Really incarnates blur the lines with their extreme power, no one NEEDS anything anymore, and nothing matters when you have no one alive to fight, so I guess it's bad in the best possible away.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
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The idea is (appropriately, I think) to reduce the desire for a specific league loadout now that the game is so heavily emphasizing multi-team events. Incarnates are supposed to blur the lines. That's not necessarily a bad thing in itself.|
Originally Posted by Katten
I don't agree that it makes blasters useless, after all, you get judgment too and I LOVE judgment. However, it does go a long way toward destroying the specific roll of a blaster on a team, huge AoE damage. However, the mobs are dead. Really incarnates blur the lines with their extreme power, no one NEEDS anything anymore, and nothing matters when you have no one alive to fight, so I guess it's bad in the best possible away.
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The problem with Blasters is that they've always paid too much for their allegedly supreme offense. This really isn't a subject for debate; simply parroting over and over again that Blasters are the best at offense doesn't address Blasters' unique lack of other assets, even if we accept as an article of faith that Blasters are clearly superior to every other option in offensive potential, which isn't self-evident. Quite the opposite, in fact.
This is a discussion about capability. AT lines blurred by Incarnate content, but Blasters remain a weaker base on which to build with Incarnate powers.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Nope, I've ran my archer in leagues, and done both lambda and baf, and didn't have any problem using Rain of Arrows. you just have to be quick on the draw, and get to groups faster then other people. And Archery has the second highest single target DPS for blasters (fire being the first) No, really, look it up. Archery is literally the second best all around Blaster primary, even with the fact the it is mostly lethal damage (which a hint of fire) due to its quick animation times, and ability to build definance up quickly.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You are arguing from lack of experience. Having rain of arrows on a league full of judgements is an exercise in frustration. Its even more annoying seeing as an archer has mediocre single target and almost all of it is smash/lethal. That is from experience.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Fulcrum shift much ?
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Sorry last time I played this game you had bunches of small things to kill on your way to that one thing that really needed dps. |
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
When you say so many you mean 2 available to blasters. Hail of bullets is on a longer base recharge.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
In your opinion.
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You just aren't serious here and I have to guess trying to be provocative.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Nope, I've ran my archer in leagues, and done both lambda and baf, and didn't have any problem using Rain of Arrows. you just have to be quick on the draw, and get to groups faster then other people. And Archery has the second highest single target DPS for blasters (fire being the first) No, really, look it up. Archery is literally the second best all around Blaster primary, even with the fact the it is mostly lethal damage (which a hint of fire) due to its quick animation times, and ability to build definance up quickly.
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Archery st chain is blazing->aimed->snap shot
It takes 5 seconds to run and does roughly 290 damage base over that give 100% damage enhance in the powers 50% from defiance and another 60% from aim and buildup give you 180 dps Meh.
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I don't have the numbers on hand, but archery is indeed the second higher single target powerset available for blasters, with fire being the first. It was posted in the multiple 'Dual Pistols is low damage' threads, fire was top, archery was second. Gimme a few and i'll try to dig up the threads. I'm at work now, so it may be awhile.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You just aren't serious here and I have to guess trying to be provocative.
Archery st chain is blazing->aimed->snap shot It takes 5 seconds to run and does roughly 290 damage base over that give 100% damage enhance in the powers 50% from defiance and another 60% from aim and buildup give you 180 dps Meh. |
Ok, i found the post i was looking for. And i was wrong on archery being second.. BUT Single target damage wise, With SOs, archery is 3rd highest DPS, (at base) 4th highest with hasten factored in (or at 70% recharge from IOs) and 6th highest damage with IO (which i think in this case is 300+% recharge)
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=233
Archery is not very weak at all, especially when you factor in its AoE abilities.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Ok, i found the post i was looking for. And i was wrong on archery being second.. BUT Single target damage wise, With SOs, archery is 3rd highest DPS, (at base) 4th highest with hasten factored in (or at 70% recharge from IOs) and 6th highest damage with IO (which i think in this case is 300+% recharge)
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=233 Archery is not very weak at all, especially when you factor in its AoE abilities. |
6th for me is kind of meh. But you illustrate a very good point, archery starts strong single target and drops behind as IOs come into play. Its the same type of problem that blasters have over all.
Just looking at that post its kind of dated as 300% recharge in the powers is very possible currently
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Eh, recharge cap is 400%, counting enhancement values (i think) so 300% is still pretty high (thats in the ballpark of 200% global recharge from set bonuses)|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
6th for me is kind of meh. But you illustrate a very good point, archery starts strong single target and drops behind as IOs come into play. Its the same type of problem that blasters have over all.
Just looking at that post its kind of dated as 300% recharge in the powers is very possible currently |
But yes, Blasters on SOs are beasts, Blasters on moderate IOs are still beasts, but everyone else is about on par to what Blasters were on SOs (so blasters are ahead, but barely, in the damage department) blasters on full throttle IOs are again still beasts, but everyone else is now the Omega Beasts which can overshadow what blasters do pretty easily.
Now, while that may be a problem with blasters in general, its really hard to balance. Due to the higher damage potential that blasters have (given the same durablity as a scrapper, the blaster will out damage the scrapper any given day, do to number of AoEs, and sheer higher damage mods) but getting that blaster to those levels of survival, or even adding inherent survival boosts could really turn things into massive tank mages.
Judgements however don't add any survival and just add more ranged damage, which could actually benefit the blaster as much as any other AT. Throw your judgement blast, and then kill whatever is leftover.
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Maybe your blasters are just deficient but mine can solo pylons and AVs just fine. Melee ATs don't hold a flame to the blasters I play.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Well for one thing part of that number is because emps are able to buff those pets and keep them alive and blasters really can't even with the new abilities. So you are left with the blaster as an AT that has a negligible dps advantage a survivability deficit to everything else in the game and is solidly in the same boat as melee ATs in buff/debuff capability.
The other big problem is that the game is ceasing to be game if you want to be a "GOD" and just bust stuff up, download a 3D environment, some scenery and go blow it away. |
As for downloading a 3d enviroment to blow stuff up in, I did it's called City of Heroes you got a better suggestion?
OMG!!! what server do u play on so i will make sure i NEVER play there
where is it so cut throat to get on a team that it comes down to " Do we want this blaster or this def , wait the def has tier 4 pyro dis the blaster !!!"
I suggest thunder dome !! "two toons enter, one toon leaves !! ""
Ok...so now an Emp Defender can have the same OMGDieDieDie power as anyone else, including a Blaster.
Defender fires his Judgement and then continues fighting as normal (talking solo here).
Blaster does the same thing.
Now for the next 89 seconds who's going to be doing more damage? If you said Blaster you get a cookie.
Team mechanics change the field for EVERYONE not just Blasters with Judgement envy. Defenders and others with buffing/debuffing powers are force multipliers. The larger the team, the more they bring to the field. A single FF Defender can help protect 7 others on his team. But in the case of AoE buffs the smaller the team the smaller his contribution because he's spending the same energy for less result.
We've all read threads about or been on single-AT superteams that rolled over everything. 8 Controlls or Defenders can stroll through most content without Tanks, Blasters or anything else. Adding others might make things easier but nowadays nobody is necessary. Everyone having Judgement just makes the enemies fall down faster is all.
I'd worry less about everyone having the latest GodModePower and focus more on what your character is doing for the other 89 seconds that Judgement is recharging. To me THAT is the most important part of what a character brings to the team.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
Do mind that those descrptions were written way before IO's, sets or bonusses were ever invented. In the time ED didnt exist, where blasters slot 5 DMG SO's (or 6 with acc buffs), they were 'top of the chain' for doing damage but could not take much beating. Where afaik even the inherent power didnt even exist (containment for the ill troller).
So by theme they still are what it written, just by the numberous of modifications on the game, the line got more blurry.