World Beater suggestion?


Amy_Amp

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite Fire View Post
Don't get me wrong... my ice/ice has softcapped s/l, and is much lower damage/rech then the dp and fire, that type of build works well too. But i personally prefer just overwhelming them in a heartbeat.
The whole point of a 'world beater' build, though, is to fight such tough foes that you can't just curbstomp them. Or it should be, anyway. If you're fighting +4's you're not going to just two shot x8 mobs of them, even with +120% dmg. You're going to need some form of defense to deal with the return fire.

I tend to agree with others that permadoms are your best bet in that regard, but the OP seems fairly picky with what AT. I think it'd be easier for them to just say what AT they want to do this with and go from there on how much you could do with it.


 

Posted

I vote soft-capped perma-dom.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite Fire View Post
any blaster that can't kill a 8/1 mob before (s)he suffers life ending damage is really doing it wrong.

A blaster should be able to do enough burst damage in a short enough period of time to take out a 8/1 mob before it suffers serious damage.
That's generally true of AoE-heavy Blasters, though not all Blasters. An Ice/Energy Blaster isn't going to wipe out a +1/x8 mob with Frost Breath and Ice Storm no matter how much recharge he has, but on the other hand he might well take down a +4/x1 mob pretty well. But I've never seen any Blaster that can even come close to soloing the same spawns a Scrapper or Brute with the same amount of inf invested in them can handle... by the time you get your Fire/Energy to the point he can obliterate +1/x8 mobs a SS/Shield Brute or Electric/Shield Scrapper is taking on +3/x8 with bosses. That's what I meant by saying Blasters were more team focused... for a given investment they tend to be able to solo weaker enemies than several other ATs. On the other hand, while an extreme damage Fire Blaster probably can't solo on +4/x8 he can cetainly speed up clearing a +4 spawn on a team more than the guys who can solo +4s will... he has more damage than they do, he just needs a little help staying alive long enough to use it.


Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaikenX View Post
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around "blasters are support class". Uuummm...huh?
Most of the time, the damage classes are just there to mop up opponents already defeated by crowd control and debuffs.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
That's generally true of AoE-heavy Blasters, though not all Blasters. An Ice/Energy Blaster isn't going to wipe out a +1/x8 mob with Frost Breath and Ice Storm no matter how much recharge he has, but on the other hand he might well take down a +4/x1 mob pretty well. But I've never seen any Blaster that can even come close to soloing the same spawns a Scrapper or Brute with the same amount of inf invested in them can handle... by the time you get your Fire/Energy to the point he can obliterate +1/x8 mobs a SS/Shield Brute or Electric/Shield Scrapper is taking on +3/x8 with bosses. That's what I meant by saying Blasters were more team focused... for a given investment they tend to be able to solo weaker enemies than several other ATs. On the other hand, while an extreme damage Fire Blaster probably can't solo on +4/x8 he can cetainly speed up clearing a +4 spawn on a team more than the guys who can solo +4s will... he has more damage than they do, he just needs a little help staying alive long enough to use it.
right now, my "no def" lvl.15 rad/fire is taking down 8/1 mobs solo... i can't wait to see it at lvl.50 with 40~ish def across all damage types and 7 more AOE/PBAOE attacks.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
All of my characters are a support class. They all support dead mobs, getting from point A to point B as fast as possible, and not dying themselves.
I am Last Post and I support this message!


Wash: "I've been under fire before. Well ... I've been in a fire. Actually, I was fired. I can handle myself."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indomitable View Post
Most of the time, the damage classes are just there to mop up opponents already defeated by crowd control and debuffs.
You know, this is a unique way to look at it, but I certainly agree.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
PBs have no real mitigation powers that are improved by recharge aside from a heal and Light Form (which cannot be made permanent)
OK... I agree with most of the "Warshades are better then PBs" arguments, but I gotta call shenanigans on this bit.

+ Essence Boost (80% Heal, 60% +HP, Perma-able)
+ Reform Essence (50% Heal every ~20 secs)
+ White Dwarf Sublimation (50% Heal every ~20 secs)
+ Pulsar (Self-Stackable PBAoE Mag 2 Stun with 50% chance of Mag 3)
+ Incandescent Strike (Self-Stackable Mag 3 Hold)
+ White Dwarf Flare (PBAoE Knockup every ~7 seconds)
+ Solar Flare (PBAoE Knockback every ~8 seconds)
+ Light Form (Not Perma-able but a ~50% uptime isn't that hard to get)
+ Self-Rez (For when "all else fails")

That's if you discount the "kill them before they kill you" mitigation inherent in the Two PBAoE Nukes (Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike), one of which drains your end but neither of which halt your recovery. Quantum Flight is also a great Alpha-taking tool but +recharge doesn't help it much since the changes to Phase Shift mechanics.

The Human Form Shields also aid mitigation a good bit these days since the mez-doesn't-drop-defensive-toggles changes.

My Human/Dwarf Bi-form Peacebringer has existed since i6 with various power combinations, he might not be a great solo Damage-Dealer but he's never had any survivability issues. He's slotted for damage, healing and recharge (and resistance in Shining Shield, Light Form and Dwarf Form) and has no issues with soloing +1/x8s. [Edit: no SURVIVABILITY issues soloing +1/x8s. I'll admit it's pretty slow going...]

About the only thing he can't do is solo AVs (Tank them unaided? Yes. Damage them faster than they can regenerate? Nope.)


 

Posted

Sorry, I forgot that PBs also got a Dull Pain type power. Do the human form attacks like Incandescent Strike or Solar Flare really help enough to warrant going tri-form? Pretty much all PBs I've seen at higher levels (and that's not many) were Dwarf/Nova dual form...


Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indomitable View Post
Most of the time, the damage classes are just there to mop up opponents already defeated by crowd control and debuffs.
I have definitely felt at times that my damage-dealers were doing the manual labor of converting foes into exp and inf.


If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
Sorry, I forgot that PBs also got a Dull Pain type power. Do the human form attacks like Incandescent Strike or Solar Flare really help enough to warrant going tri-form? Pretty much all PBs I've seen at higher levels (and that's not many) were Dwarf/Nova dual form...
A number of the Human Form Attacks are very nice.
Not "Mire + Nova" Warshade nice, but pretty reasonable.

I'm still very much of the school of thought that you should go either Human + Dwarf or Nova + Dwarf on a PB... using either Nova or Human as your "Damage" source. Going Triform just leaves you with too few slots to slot up everything properly... even with IOs.

It used to be that Human + Dwarf was MUCH better because the Cosmic Balance Inherent didn't work in Nova form. These days Nova probably does a bit more damage, but Human form is nearly as good versus single targets, and is FAR better at damage mitigation and aggro control. And frankly, Warshades do the whole Nova + Dwarf a lot better anyway due to the carry-over buffs... Peacebringers' Human form is more unique.

It's probably easiest to think of a Human Form PB as a Regen Scrapper, albeit with Unstoppable and a PBAoE mez instead of Integration and Instant Healing. It's certainly how I play mine.

Shields + Cosmic balance Resistance buffs is pretty good mitigation. You've also got Pulsar, Light Form and the heals and +HP... and it's faster to go from Human --> Dwarf than from Nova --> Human --> Dwarf. So with all those tools it makes sense to me to try and stay in Human Form as much as possible and slot up the most damaging powers.

Glinting Eye, Gleaming Blast, Radiant Strike and Incandescent Strike are all worth taking IMO - they're the backbone of a Human form attack chain (I still keep the Veteran Sands of Mu in my tray though as a "filler"- if they let you take Air Superiority on a PB I'd have no problems dropping it). Solar Flare is a good-damage AoE attack, but the knockback can be annoying on teams - I've had builds both with and without it but have kept it in the build for several issues now. I went through a long, long period of skipping Pulsar (as Dwarf Stomp was generally a better means of mitigation) but it's quite handy when you're in Light Form and don't want to cause scatter with Solar Flare, and in the age of IOs it's easilly perma-able. You can effectively ignore minions with Pulsar, and LTs with Incandescent Strike. Bosses need to have their damage absorbed or be juggled by Knockdown/up/back.

Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike are also very worth taking and slotting up.
I could write a book on how STUPID Photon Seeker AI is, but they make a good PBAoE.

Generally I'll stay in Human form unless I really really need to tank something (and by "tank" I mean "hold aggro on", not just "survive"). The exception is if I get badly mezzed. Light Form grants good mez protection, but it's only up 50% of the time. Dwarf Form functions like a Breakfree - even with the longish form-change animation it's still a lifesaver when I run low on insps.

My PB is the one AT I have where I'll use GodMode (Light Form) regularly. It makes you essentially invincible for 50% of the time - and you can recover from the crash very easilly with all those Heals. Whilst on it also completely negates the recovery debuff from Dawn Strike, so you can Nuke and keep right on attacking.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indomitable View Post
Most of the time, the damage classes are just there to mop up opponents already defeated by crowd control and debuffs.
That ties into something I've said here, from time to time. The "squishy" ATs seem to be the types that can solo AVs, GMs, TFs., yet some (most?) can't seem to shake the idea that they need meat shields in front of them.

I like playing tanks (3) scrappers (3) and LOVE playing my VEAT, but my Mind/Fire Dom or Fire/Rad Corruptor can make an average team good and my Earth/Storm can make an average team superior. A great tank or scrapper doesn't have that same effect on the entire team's effectiveness.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin Go Braugh View Post
A great tank or scrapper doesn't have that same effect on the entire team's effectiveness.
I kind of disagree. It's just different effects. One boosts offense, and the other boosts survivability. It's true, most of the time teams prefer more offense because nobody is dying anyway. But sometimes you just need more survivability. If the team keeps wiping, extra damage/recharge isn't going to do anything for the people laying on the ground dead. Meanwhile, a good tank could keep them all alive.

Overall your point does apply in most situations (after all, the entire point of buff/debuff sets it to make OTHERS better), but in some cases, a good tank or scrapper CAN have a game-changing impact.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin Go Braugh View Post
That ties into something I've said here, from time to time. The "squishy" ATs seem to be the types that can solo AVs, GMs, TFs., yet some (most?) can't seem to shake the idea that they need meat shields in front of them.
Most "squishies" can't solo AVs, much less GMs. Certain specialized builds can, and a handful of more general ones, but most can't. It's usually Scrappers, Brutes, and perma-PA Illusion Controllers (who literally cannot be killed by a single target since their immortal pets always have aggro) who can solo the widest range of AVs... Doms, Controllers, and even some Defenders do it faster due to debuffs but they generally can't make themselves as tough across the board as melee ATs so they are more limited on what they can solo (not counting certain extreme builds).

In addition, some AV soloing squishies would get eaten alive by a x8 spawn because they rely on single target debuffs or controls to mitigate the damage... getting swarmed overloads their defenses. Having an actual Tank or Brute (or a Dwarf or tough Scrapper for that matter) soaking alphas helps a lot, and even more so having someone tough run in and let the enemies clump up good before the AoEs start flying speeds things up. Sure if you have multiple buffers and debuffers on a team you can usually skip a tank and not worry about it, but without that aggro control things will tend to get a lot more spread out. Even if no one is in any real danger you still take longer to clear a spread out spawn. And if things do go wrong, all-squishy teams tend to wipe fast unless they have massive buffs and debuffs, while melee types can help slow down that extra spawn or two for a few seconds while people regroup.

(This is assuming a standard team of 1-3 buffers/debuffers and the rest damage / tanks / EATs. Teams that are mostly or all Defenders or Corruptors tend to just obliterate everything, but your typical PUG doesn't have that level of buffage.)


Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
I kind of disagree. It's just different effects. One boosts offense, and the other boosts survivability. It's true, most of the time teams prefer more offense because nobody is dying anyway. But sometimes you just need more survivability. If the team keeps wiping, extra damage/recharge isn't going to do anything for the people laying on the ground dead. Meanwhile, a good tank could keep them all alive.

Overall your point does apply in most situations (after all, the entire point of buff/debuff sets it to make OTHERS better), but in some cases, a good tank or scrapper CAN have a game-changing impact.
In his example, the Dom or Corruptor WOULD contribute to a team's survivability. How are the bad guys going to be putting people on the ground dead when they are terrorized, confused, held, accuracy and damage debuffed, etc.?

I feel a lot safer with a good Dom or Troller beside me than a tank. There are a lot of defender/corruptor builds that I feel the same way about.


 

Posted

In my experience, squishies can do perfectly fine as long as everything is going well. It's the unexpected scenarios that cause trouble for them. Like a huge unexpected abmush from the rear, while you're already in a fight. In that situation, I definitely feel safer with a tank around than with a dom or troller. A tank can immediately grab the aggro and the team will continue killing without a hitch. For a corr/dom, they would need to apply their debuffs or AoE mezzes, which may or may not be recharged at that time. Or they could even be mezzed and killed within seconds with bad luck, unlike the tank.

If I need my team to steamroll faster, I look for a damage dealer or a debuffer. If I need a safety net, I look for a tank. My only point is that both can be useful in different scenarios, and that one is not necessarily always better than the other.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
In my experience, squishies can do perfectly fine as long as everything is going well. It's the unexpected scenarios that cause trouble for them. Like a huge unexpected abmush from the rear, while you're already in a fight. In that situation, I definitely feel safer with a tank around than with a dom or troller. A tank can immediately grab the aggro and the team will continue killing without a hitch. For a corr/dom, they would need to apply their debuffs or AoE mezzes, which may or may not be recharged at that time. Or they could even be mezzed and killed within seconds with bad luck, unlike the tank.
Very true. Of course, a tank has a aggro cap. A troller really doesn't have a Immob cap (figuring he has more than one Immob).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
Most "squishies" can't solo AVs, much less GMs.
I didn't say most squishies could solo AVs and GMs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
In addition, some AV soloing squishies would get eaten alive by a x8 spawn because they rely on single target debuffs or controls to mitigate the damage
I don't disagree, but I think that has more to do with how the squishy is built and playstyle. Admittedly, it's harder to mess up "survivability" on melee types, but we've all seen squishy stone tanks, from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
Having an actual Tank or Brute (or a Dwarf or tough Scrapper for that matter) soaking alphas helps a lot, and even more so having someone tough run in and let the enemies clump up good before the AoEs start flying speeds things up.
I completely agree. I think they're a great part of a team. Also, they can farm well in the right situations and in more varied situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
And if things do go wrong, all-squishy teams tend to wipe fast unless they have massive buffs and debuffs, while melee types can help slow down that extra spawn or two for a few seconds while people regroup.
Again, I think that's how characters are built and playstyle. Some trollers build for solo play, some for team play and some walk the middle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
I kind of disagree. It's just different effects. One boosts offense, and the other boosts survivability. It's true, most of the time teams prefer more offense because nobody is dying anyway. But sometimes you just need more survivability. If the team keeps wiping, extra damage/recharge isn't going to do anything for the people laying on the ground dead. Meanwhile, a good tank could keep them all alive.

Overall your point does apply in most situations (after all, the entire point of buff/debuff sets it to make OTHERS better), but in some cases, a good tank or scrapper CAN have a game-changing impact.
Sure, in some cases, melee types can make the difference. A good case is the computer in the ITF. I've been on teams in which there are team wipes, except for the tank hammering the computer. Of course, it's a well-built tank (I have a horror story on a stone tank dying so many times during the computer that we actually called the TF off, knowing Rommie and the Nictus would eat his and the Shield tank's lunch).

Survivability, to me, is mitigation. Again, I have three great tanks (WP/SS, SD/SS, Inv/SS) and three scrapper (EM/SD, Claws/WP, DB/WP) that are tough as nails and almost never die. On an average team, they can boost the team's survivability. My trollers and such can make that whole team better, from mitigation to damage. That's my point, really. I have no intention of getting rid of my tanks or not playing them.