Curious about Volcanic Gasses
By
Derangedpolygot,
Posted on: 2011-03-01 09:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
0s: Geyser 1 spawned, target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 1). Now has mag 3 hold on it.
6s: Target hit with 14.5s mag3 hold (Geyser 1). Now has a mag 6 hold on it. 10s: Geyser 2 spawned, target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 2). Now has a mag 9 hold on it. 12s: Target hit with 14.5s mag3 hold (Geyser 1). Now has a mag 12 hold on it. 14.5s: First hold from Geyser 1 fades. Now has a mag 9 hold on it. 15s: Geyser 1 despawns. 16s: Target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 2). Now has a mag 12 hold on it. 20s: Geyser 3 spawned, target hit with 14.5 mag 3 hold (Geyser 3). Now has a mag 15 hold on it. 20.5s: Second hold from Geyser 1 fades. Now has a mag 12 hold on it. 22s: Target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 2). Now has a mag 15 hold on it. 24.5s: First hold from Geyser 2 fades. Now has a mag 12 hold on it. 25s: Geyser 2 despawns. 26s: Target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 3). Now has a mag 15 hold on it. 26.5s: Third hold from Geyser 1 fades. Now has a mag 12 hold on it. |
I've noticed that the hold doesn't fire at 0 sec. It doesn't start working until 6 seconds in. Every time I use VG, enemies run out of the effect unless I've placed Quicksand down first.
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Yeah, I've noticed that too. The rough estimate seems accurate, though... I used a Power Analyzer on Overdrive while she sat in it, and Volcanic Gasses alone was able to get her up to 12-15 hold mag, peaking at 17 once when the Lockdown proc went off. (I tried taking a screenshot of this for posterity, but stupidly had screenshotui=0, so I now have some nice pictures of a brownish-yellow cloud.) That's pretty crazy.
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Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
I've noticed that the hold doesn't fire at 0 sec. It doesn't start working until 6 seconds in. Every time I use VG, enemies run out of the effect unless I've placed Quicksand down first.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
This gave me an odd idea, so I pulled out Mids' and slapped together a quick Earth/Earth dom build. Since it wasn't a serious build, all I worried about was getting 95% Recharge and Hold Duration in Fossilize, Seismic Smash and Volcanic Gasses, enough global recharge for perma-dom, and a Spiritual Core Paragon.
All the numbers below use the non-Domination durations, since that's how long the max strength of the Holds lasts. In practise, you'd be seeing higher numbers.
Fossilize is mag 6 for over 30sec, with a <2 sec recharge.
Seismic Smash is mag 4 for almost 25 sec, with a <5 sec recharge.
Volcanic Gasses is perma; it can be resummoned a few seconds before it despawns.
An attack chain of Fossilize - Smash - Fossilize - (filler) with(filler) being Domination, Hasten or Volcanic Gasses as they come up, or whatever filler you want (Stone Prison with Grav. Anchor proc!) should be able to keep the max level of Hold on a target.
Using the mag 12 value for Gasses, and assuming Smash stacks 4 times (for mag 16) and Fossilize stacks 15 times (for mag 90!), that's a mag 118 Hold, plus spikes for Domination's extended duration, spikes in Gasses mag, and bonuses from procs.
What's the magnitude of an AV's Hold protection when they have PToD up? I know this is enough when the triangles point down, but would it hold an AV for as long as you could keep it up?
@Roderick
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for standard AVs, the ptod gives them mag 50 protect, but you also have to take into account their resistances and such to mez being an AV and what not|
Originally Posted by Roderick
This gave me an odd idea, so I pulled out Mids' and slapped together a quick Earth/Earth dom build. Since it wasn't a serious build, all I worried about was getting 95% Recharge and Hold Duration in Fossilize, Seismic Smash and Volcanic Gasses, enough global recharge for perma-dom, and a Spiritual Core Paragon.
All the numbers below use the non-Domination durations, since that's how long the max strength of the Holds lasts. In practise, you'd be seeing higher numbers. Fossilize is mag 6 for over 30sec, with a <2 sec recharge. Seismic Smash is mag 4 for almost 25 sec, with a <5 sec recharge. Volcanic Gasses is perma; it can be resummoned a few seconds before it despawns. An attack chain of Fossilize - Smash - Fossilize - (filler) with(filler) being Domination, Hasten or Volcanic Gasses as they come up, or whatever filler you want (Stone Prison with Grav. Anchor proc!) should be able to keep the max level of Hold on a target. Using the mag 12 value for Gasses, and assuming Smash stacks 4 times (for mag 16) and Fossilize stacks 15 times (for mag 90!), that's a mag 118 Hold, plus spikes for Domination's extended duration, spikes in Gasses mag, and bonuses from procs. What's the magnitude of an AV's Hold protection when they have PToD up? I know this is enough when the triangles point down, but would it hold an AV for as long as you could keep it up? |
also from my experience with volcanic gases on my earth/fire dom, domination does not affect the gases hold, which means no extra duration or mag mez. i do however have my gases slotted with the lockdown proc, which triggers everytime one of the gases pets releases thermal vents
on my earth/fire build i will have the perma volcanic gases, atm im still finishing his build so its like 2 sec downtime or so
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Right, I'd forgotten about mez resistance. Is that a standard AV ability, and if so, how much is the standard version? I know I've seen AVs held on a fairly regular basis, when the triangles are down.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
for standard AVs, the ptod gives them mag 50 protect, but you also have to take into account their resistances and such to mez being an AV and what not
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| also from my experience with volcanic gases on my earth/fire dom, domination does not affect the gases hold, which means no extra duration or mag mez. |
@Roderick
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when the ptod are down, the AVs have no more base protection than a boss or EB (IE they require at least 2-3 applications when the triangles are down to mez them)|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Right, I'd forgotten about mez resistance. Is that a standard AV ability, and if so, how much is the standard version? I know I've seen AVs held on a fairly regular basis, when the triangles are down.
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as per status resistance, i think thats on a per AV basis, in general i dont think most of them have any mez resists, a few examples of mez resist that i have seen from using the power analyzer is bobcat in the tin mage tf has 66% duration on mezzes and statesman in LRSF has 50% mez durations, i think there are a few others but i cant remember them atm
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Like Necrotech_Master said, Domination doesn't affect Volcanic Gasses. But yes, an Earth/ permadom can hold an AV through PToD with enough recharge. That's why I asked in the first place, actually. My Earth/Fire permadom is currently capable of soloing AVs by permanently holding them*, and I'm getting ready to respec her a little. I want to make sure I don't screw it up too badly, and I'm trying to figure out just where to stick one spare slot I have.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
This gave me an odd idea, so I pulled out Mids' and slapped together a quick Earth/Earth dom build. Since it wasn't a serious build, all I worried about was getting 95% Recharge and Hold Duration in Fossilize, Seismic Smash and Volcanic Gasses, enough global recharge for perma-dom, and a Spiritual Core Paragon.
All the numbers below use the non-Domination durations, since that's how long the max strength of the Holds lasts. In practise, you'd be seeing higher numbers. Fossilize is mag 6 for over 30sec, with a <2 sec recharge. Seismic Smash is mag 4 for almost 25 sec, with a <5 sec recharge. Volcanic Gasses is perma; it can be resummoned a few seconds before it despawns. An attack chain of Fossilize - Smash - Fossilize - (filler) with(filler) being Domination, Hasten or Volcanic Gasses as they come up, or whatever filler you want (Stone Prison with Grav. Anchor proc!) should be able to keep the max level of Hold on a target. Using the mag 12 value for Gasses, and assuming Smash stacks 4 times (for mag 16) and Fossilize stacks 15 times (for mag 90!), that's a mag 118 Hold, plus spikes for Domination's extended duration, spikes in Gasses mag, and bonuses from procs. What's the magnitude of an AV's Hold protection when they have PToD up? I know this is enough when the triangles point down, but would it hold an AV for as long as you could keep it up? |
*Footnote: But still require two purple inspirations to survive the first 20 seconds or so until they're held, so it might not count by Scrapper metrics. I can probably do without this on most AVs (ones with S/L/Energy ranged attacks) if I'm willing to immob them at range and break LoS between holds until they're nice and paralyzed. Needs more experimenting.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Heh, "so this here is my AV killer" . . . .
"Sure it takes about 3 hours to actually drop the AV, but he never moves after the first 20 seconds"
I've never tried that. I think I'll have to take one of my higher level guys and try to spec him out for nothing but hold and recharge and give it a try 
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I was thinking more of a team setting, not an AV soloer: Tank distracts AV, Dom locks him down, Win!
But Fossilizing an AV to death is an amusing thought. 
@Roderick
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from personal experience it doesnt take 3 hours to solo an AV like that lol|
Originally Posted by Soulwind
Heh, "so this here is my AV killer" . . . .
"Sure it takes about 3 hours to actually drop the AV, but he never moves after the first 20 seconds" I've never tried that. I think I'll have to take one of my higher level guys and try to spec him out for nothing but hold and recharge and give it a try |
a friend of mine on a mind/elec can solo an AV in like 40 min or so, and from what ive heard mind/fires can kill even faster
almost any dom primary can solo an AV due to perma holding, but some make it easier than others (ie earth with gases and mind using confuse instead of hold)
Mind and Fire permadoms can keep most AVs permanently held with just Char/Dominate, but it requires a lot of recharge.
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Not that long at all, really. Just took Valkyrie with a no-insps no-temps run, and she took just shy of three minutes (9:19 AM on the dot to 9:21:42). Of course, then she promptly rezzed and went into MoG and I had to flee. It's also notable that I think she's a little light on the S/L resist, which helps, since my pets actually seem to contribute a decent chunk of damage. I know ARCH-A, my first experiment with all this, seemed to drop significantly faster after I resummoned them.|
Originally Posted by Soulwind
Heh, "so this here is my AV killer" . . . .
"Sure it takes about 3 hours to actually drop the AV, but he never moves after the first 20 seconds" I've never tried that. I think I'll have to take one of my higher level guys and try to spec him out for nothing but hold and recharge and give it a try |
Edit: I thought three minutes seemed a little fast. I just noticed from the screenshot that she spawned at 49 despite me setting the mission at +1. That probably made a good chunk of the speed--when I fought ARCH-A, he took at least five minutes, and it seemed like Ms. Liberty was longer than that too, even without Unstoppable.
That said, I'm not sure if I'd really encourage anybody to go for the super-hold route (as opposed to the super-confuse route Mind/ gets or just playing a more traditional AV-soloing AT) unless you just really like Dominators. There are a number of problems--for one, most godmodes either grant the AV lots of status resistance or give them high defense, which makes it really hard to keep them held. I'm not sure if AVs can activate them while held or not. Ms. Liberty hit her Unstoppable when I fought her, but I was occasionally getting split-second gaps in my hold where she could attack without moving from the Fossilize position. Plus, you have to survive the first 10-20 seconds of the AV being unheld (playing tag with your immob helps here, as does letting your pets take the brunt of their anger.) And a really high recharge dom build probably costs significantly more than a comparably capable high-defense Scrapper build.
But hey, I was going for absurd recharge anyway, so it's a fun side effect.
Valkyrie and Liora Kate getting close.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Doesn't it have a 1.0 base accuracy instead of the 0.8 that most mass holds have too?
My controllers are SO envious of the earth controllers. Theirs is not only more accurate out of the box it also holds adds drawn into the AOE afterwards and now we see it is stacking holds? LOL 
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On the other hand, like Necrotech pointed out upthread, Volcanic Gasses doesn't take hold instantly. It hesitates a moment or two before casting the first hold, and each time it casts a hold, it only hits a 10-foot radius instead of the 30-foot radius most AOE holds get. If the pseudopet AI is being dumb, it can completely ignore some enemies... and in my experience, this happens. Even if it plays it smart, it still takes a few applications to get everything held. So, while other control sets get an instant hold in the entire AoE, Earth gets a hold that takes 10 seconds or so to become fully effective, but hits higher magnitudes and lasts longer.
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Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel
Doesn't it have a 1.0 base accuracy instead of the 0.8 that most mass holds have too?
My controllers are SO envious of the earth controllers. Theirs is not only more accurate out of the box it also holds adds drawn into the AOE afterwards and now we see it is stacking holds? LOL |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Volcanic Gasses is a funny little power, just about up there with Carrion Creepers in terms of complexity. I'm trying to figure some things out about it; for the purposes of this, I'll use the Dominator numbers, because that's really what I'm interested in. As far as I can tell from its City of Data writeup...
The power actually summons seven pets.
Volcanic Gas
Pet #1 is Volcanic Gas, which just sits there and spams the AoE fire damage attack. Nobody cares. Next!
Volcanic Geyser
The rest of the pets are Volcanic Geysers. One Volcanic Geyser is summoned at a time every ten seconds the patch is down. Each Geyser lasts 15 seconds and has a single power, Thermal Vents.
Thermal Vents
Thermal Vents is a ranged mag 3 AoE hold with a 6 second recharge and a base 7.45 second duration. The hold component isn't flagged as being unenhanceable, so with 95% hold enhancement, I assume that this becomes a 14.5s duration hold. Thermal Vents is listed as having a blank cast time, so I assume that it casts instantly.
So, various thoughts and questions:
Performance versus a single target
As far as I can tell, if there's only a single target inside Volcanic Gasses, every casting of Thermal Vents will be directed at it. Assuming none of them miss, this can get nasty fast. If my math is correct, by the 16 second point, the target will be under a mag 12 hold, and it proceeds to waver between mag 12 and mag 15 for the rest of the power's duration.
0s: Geyser 1 spawned, target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 1). Now has mag 3 hold on it.
6s: Target hit with 14.5s mag3 hold (Geyser 1). Now has a mag 6 hold on it.
10s: Geyser 2 spawned, target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 2). Now has a mag 9 hold on it.
12s: Target hit with 14.5s mag3 hold (Geyser 1). Now has a mag 12 hold on it.
14.5s: First hold from Geyser 1 fades. Now has a mag 9 hold on it.
15s: Geyser 1 despawns.
16s: Target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 2). Now has a mag 12 hold on it.
20s: Geyser 3 spawned, target hit with 14.5 mag 3 hold (Geyser 3). Now has a mag 15 hold on it.
20.5s: Second hold from Geyser 1 fades. Now has a mag 12 hold on it.
22s: Target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 2). Now has a mag 15 hold on it.
24.5s: First hold from Geyser 2 fades. Now has a mag 12 hold on it.
25s: Geyser 2 despawns.
26s: Target hit with 14.5s mag 3 hold (Geyser 3). Now has a mag 15 hold on it.
26.5s: Third hold from Geyser 1 fades. Now has a mag 12 hold on it.
[. . .]
Does this look correct?
Procs
Since Thermal Vents is a click power, it appears to me that any hold procs in Volcanic Gasses will be triggered every six seconds per Volcanic Geyser. Carnifax's post in this thread suggests this is true--does anybody have enough experience to confirm it?
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.