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Your signature is ironic.
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Originally Posted by Novella
Lately I have been playing my EM/EA Stalker whom I love playing and I got to thinking about the power Energy Drain. Do you think it would overpower Stalkers if the power was changed again and made more like Dark Regeneration?
I personally find the healing aspect of Energy Drain to be completely useless and I remember when it didn't heal at all. I know the power is there for restoring endurance primarily, but I think it would balance the power set perfectly if the power were changed to mimic Dark Regeneration. Thoughts! |
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Dark Regeneration heals for more because it requires accuracy slotting. Energy draining doesn't, and as a result, I find it more reliable than DR.
No way. The whole concept of energy aura is that you have unlimited energy. Conserve power isn't up enough to simulate that, but drain is.
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The fatal flaw, of course, is that you have no energy when you're dead.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
No way. The whole concept of energy aura is that you have unlimited energy. Conserve power isn't up enough to simulate that, but drain is.
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EA and ElA both sacrifice protecting your green bar to better protect your blue bar. Not coincidentally, EA and ElA share the ignoble distinction of being the two weakest melee defensive sets, most likely because of this trade-off.
Of course, these days, IOs can cover a host of sins.
Personally, all I think EA is really missing is enough DDR to hold on to its Defense. Though I'm also a fan of nerfing Overload and distributing some of that potential across the set as a whole.
I like EA thematically and visually. It's just poorly thought-out compared to its sister set and forebear Ice Armor, which stands heads and shoulders above it for survivability and has Endurance management that is almost as good.
I will say this for both Stalker and Brute Energy Aura: they provide a unique play experience.
I find myself wishing Stalkers had been designed with combat stealth like Brute EA has.
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Energy Drain has a few problems:
1. It costs 13 endurance to use. I don't know how many times my Brute /EA's endurance was very low and when I used it, I either had to wait or dropped most of my toggles and got mezzed. Endurance cost seems a bit too high IMO.
2. Activation time is a bit slow.
3. Healing aspect of it is just a bonus. I tried not to think about it as a healing power but I can see how Brute gets more from healing when he herds. My /EA Stalker needs at least 4 targets to feel a decent healing from drain.
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On Dark Regeneration, I think that power has some problems too. The endurance cost is way too high. Yes, I know it heals a lot but in reality, you really only need 2-3 targets to heal back to full completely. Hitting more than 4 targets is just over-healing which doesn't make you survive longer. I heard chance for endurance proc works well with Dark Regeneration but I haven't tried it yet. I just know that without any set bonuses, it is very hard to keep using Dark Regeneration whenever it's up. (Fear toggle costs a lot of end too)
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Having said that, I find Energy Aura brings a different playing style for Brute (positive way) but does almost nothing for Stalker. There are better defensive sets and I still hate that Repluse toggle. It just costs too much end and the activation time makes it hard to toggle on and off during combat. I have a 50 Spine/EA and he does alright against things that don't do psionic damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I got Aid Self on my KM/EA Stalker, and I think to be honest that having both is a great thing. In a team (yay teams), if you do it when the enemy spawn is still alive or mostly alive, when slotted for heal, you get a very decent boost to health. My Energy Drain requires 7 targets to out heal my Aid Self (both powers are at 91% heal enhancement in my build) and as us defense setters know (SRs/Shield etc.) Aid Self combined with defense is great. Energy Drain gives us the same (or better) benefit when in a big spawn (which is the only time i get hit bad anyway, except for a lucky boss hit, in which case placate/run away + Aid Self, then AS) AND at the same time fills your end bar completely.
Combining the two (decent spawn Energy Drain + Aid Self) gets you fully healed from pretty much dead, and if you're lucky enough not to get hit from when you hit ED onwards, you'll only be a couple of seconds from rehiding. Which is great from a timing perspective, as if you take an alpha or some such - pop ED - pop Aid Self - reaquire a priority target + AS/wait a moment and pop your AoE.
I LOVE Energy Drain 
it's like Stygian Circle for the living foe!
(not sure if it'd be too competetive on a brute though, even with the defense you'd probably expect to be hit a lot, at least more than an EA stalker with similar numbers and I wouldn't like the idea of Aid Self on a Brute too much, as they're supposed to be: HIT HIT HIT HIT HIT HIT HIT *rage crash* *weep* HIT HIT HIT)
p.p.s. Thank you Castle! You threw this set a bone and for that I loves ya
@Rooks
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So help me understand this. You find a power that heals for virtually nothing more reliable than a power that even with base accuracy only will still hit at least one enemy and heal you for more than 50% of your health?|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Dark Regeneration heals for more because it requires accuracy slotting. Energy draining doesn't, and as a result, I find it more reliable than DR.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
No way. The whole concept of energy aura is that you have unlimited energy. Conserve power isn't up enough to simulate that, but drain is.
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I understand where you are coming from, but even increasing the heal a little more in Energy Drain would make it a lot better power and a lot more useful to someone like me.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
The problem is that if you're 1v1 on low health, you'll hit DR and expect to be healed. At the accuracy cap you've got a 5% chance of missing. On an /EA you would know that ED will only negligibly heal off a single enemy, and wouldn't bother with it, opting for mez, running away or killing it. You EXPECT to be healed using DR and it can let you down. With ED you are never let down, ever (unless you yourself fail to catch any enemies in the pbaoe, though of course DR is the same in this respect). Therefore Energy Drain is indeed more reliable. This does not mean more effective of course, as similarly using a Respite will be more reliable a heal than having a pocket empath, however (with a competent player of course) there is no question which tool is better for long term survival.
Though on a personal note, I will add that I LOVE filling both hp and endurance bars at the same time. It feels so efficient!
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
I have to say, a base of 3% heal is pretty crappy.
Few things to note. Healing bonuses work badly for such a low number to start with. Also, any +HP bonuses are not included in the %HP heal, so when Energy Drain heals 6.885% of my HP, it actually only heals 4.7%. That is with +24% healing bonuses and the Heal/Rech alpha!
That is my main beef with EA's Energy Drain. Do I use it? yeah. Have I died while it was animating? yeah. It's a fair heal. But not great. I also have Aid Self for when I only have a few targets around me.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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My new Fm/Ea Brute that I created from the remains of my stalker (Pulled all the IOs out of a Spines/Ninjitsu stalker) gets over 1000 HP every 15 seconds from Energy Drain.|
Originally Posted by Novella
So help me understand this. You find a power that heals for virtually nothing more reliable than a power that even with base accuracy only will still hit at least one enemy and heal you for more than 50% of your health?
Concept aside a person requires Conserve Power or Energy Drain to keep their endurance up something is very wrong with their build. I understand where you are coming from, but even increasing the heal a little more in Energy Drain would make it a lot better power and a lot more useful to someone like me. |
I cannot complain at all.
Sorry you people who stick with the stalker AT don't like Energy Drain.
It serves my brute wonderfully.
Did I mention I get combat stealth which is superior to Hide in most cases on a brute too?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I do think Energy Drain works a lot better on brute and Energy Aura offers a different kind of gameplay for a stealthy Brute (I still took Taunt though). Mine is lvl 47 Dark/EA.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
My new Fm/Ea Brute that I created from the remains of my stalker (Pulled all the IOs out of a Spines/Ninjitsu stalker) gets over 1000 HP every 15 seconds from Energy Drain.
I cannot complain at all. Sorry you people who stick with the stalker AT don't like Energy Drain. It serves my brute wonderfully. Did I mention I get combat stealth which is superior to Hide in most cases on a brute too? |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I personaly would hate for it to mimic the dark power.
Becasue right now if i use my top armor power which always does crash. Then i can use a single blue then use this power and get all my energy back fast. This makes a very low down time. And sometimes i dont even need to use a blue.
I also slotted the power with an enhancement that has a chance to stun...so this makes it a power that will stun targets every so often....i cant do that with a heal power...there is no stun proc. available for heal.
The set is dodge based....i realize it might be ok to have a heal power...but go figure energy recovery is far more useful to me....I find the stalker dodge powers tend to use energy alot and so do the attacks if you really start hammering out attack chains.
In addition the set has that power that makes it possible to push enemies away from you...i am going to guess the energy drain was supposed to help with that...
if anything they should get rid of that push power and replace it with the heal suggested.
The energy drain power though...thats fine in my opinion...it actualy works very well....it also does a small amount of damage too...not sure how much as its very small...but i have killed targets with it many times.
I play a Kinetic/Energy Stalker mostly right now...
So that might be why i dont think the power should be altered....i could understand if i had electric melee too....considering those attacks all drain...i might think the power should do more healing too.
But seriously i just would loathe the power if it got changed.....i would end up standing around alot with barely any energy again waiting to recover some.
[Energy Drain] Does not do damage. Thus it can be auto hit.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Energy Drain > Dark Regeneration when you start to frankenslot with IO's.|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
[Energy Drain] Does not do damage. Thus it can be auto hit.
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Dark Regeneration is a very neat heal when you have at least 3, or more enemies around, but if it fails to land, and more than 3 minions are on you, as a resistance based stalker set you are toast unless you start hitting some emergency powers.
Energy drain heal is weak against 1-3 enemies yes, but since EA is a defense based set, you don't rely on the heal, thus you are more than likely to engage a larger number of enemies without falling over like a resistance based set.
The heal in Energy drain when swarmed by 7-8 minions is very good due to its reliability, and the endurance return is phenomal. Not to mention the minions blue bars are pretty much empty.
I like resistanced based sets on stalkers as you know you can take X amount of damage, but resistance based sets have a smaller window to work with. This is why DR is slightly better now that you can frankenslot it with IO's, but in my view the new revamped Energy drain blows it out of the water.
I'd prefer it if they scrapped the heal portion of Energy Drain altogether and gave Conserve Power the Energize treatment, like they did for Electric Armor. It'd have the added bonus of facilitating proliferation to scrapper (since scrappers can't have Conserve Power on their armors).
I won't hold my breath, tho ;p
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I can honestly say that I have never found myself in a 1v1 situation on my Fire/Dark Scrapper where I needed to use DR so missing has never been an issue.|
Originally Posted by Rooks
The problem is that if you're 1v1 on low health, you'll hit DR and expect to be healed. At the accuracy cap you've got a 5% chance of missing. On an /EA you would know that ED will only negligibly heal off a single enemy, and wouldn't bother with it, opting for mez, running away or killing it. You EXPECT to be healed using DR and it can let you down. With ED you are never let down, ever (unless you yourself fail to catch any enemies in the pbaoe, though of course DR is the same in this respect). Therefore Energy Drain is indeed more reliable. This does not mean more effective of course, as similarly using a Respite will be more reliable a heal than having a pocket empath, however (with a competent player of course) there is no question which tool is better for long term survival.
Though on a personal note, I will add that I LOVE filling both hp and endurance bars at the same time. It feels so efficient! |
Personally I find Energy Drain to be a terrible power because it personally doesn't offer me any benefit on my Stalker. I don't have endurance issues and the heal is so terrible I can just pop a small green and I gain a lot more health than if I used it in a group full of enemies.
I completely disagree with you regarding the reliability of each power. Enemies run and you can easily miss them in ED, with DR you are likely to NEVER miss a single enemy with Cloak of Fear or Opressive Gloom running. DR is infinitely more reliable than ED in my opinion and I have used each power extensively to compare them. In terms of long term survival you're right there is no question which is better, Dark Regeneration is without a doubt, but you are entitled to your opinion as am I so to each their own.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
My new Fm/Ea Brute that I created from the remains of my stalker (Pulled all the IOs out of a Spines/Ninjitsu stalker) gets over 1000 HP every 15 seconds from Energy Drain.
I cannot complain at all. Sorry you people who stick with the stalker AT don't like Energy Drain. It serves my brute wonderfully. Did I mention I get combat stealth which is superior to Hide in most cases on a brute too? |
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
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You really can't say this because it just isn't true. One weakness of Dark Armor is ToHit debuffs. Sure you can IO yourself out the rump with Accuracy and use Focused Accuracy + Tactics + Kismet or whatever, but I've been in situations vs CoT or Rogue PPD and many other enemies in the process of leveling and had my ToHit drop into the 20s or lower. Stacked Dark powers or flashbangs *will* cut the reliability of Dark Regen and since you're a resist set, you *will* get hit with these powers and this will directly affect more powers in that set other than Dark Regen.|
Originally Posted by Novella
I completely disagree with you regarding the reliability of each power. Enemies run and you can easily miss them in ED, with DR you are likely to NEVER miss a single enemy with Cloak of Fear or Opressive Gloom running. DR is infinitely more reliable than ED in my opinion and I have used each power extensively to compare them. In terms of long term survival you're right there is no question which is better, Dark Regeneration is without a doubt, but you are entitled to your opinion as am I so to each their own. |
As a heal? Yes, DR is more powerful and decently reliable...it also costs 1/3 of your endurance to use.
But Energy Drain isn't just a heal. If you *need* a heal, you can just do what SR does and pick up the medicine pool or use lots of protection toggles to protect you better. But even being a drain and a +END power, it can also heal you for potentially 60%. Not even Ice Armor gets a heal that it can use to spot-fix itself when needed.
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Fair enough to you, but in my experience I can say it and it holds true 100%. I've never had a single moment where I had DR completely miss all enemies and not heal me completely. True CoT can debuff you, but you are speaking about single enemies which if you solo sure that will be an issue, but I don't solo and even in the times I have soloed on my FM/DA Scrapper I still have never had an issue with being debuffed.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You really can't say this because it just isn't true. One weakness of Dark Armor is ToHit debuffs. Sure you can IO yourself out the rump with Accuracy and use Focused Accuracy + Tactics + Kismet or whatever, but I've been in situations vs CoT or Rogue PPD and many other enemies in the process of leveling and had my ToHit drop into the 20s or lower. Stacked Dark powers or flashbangs *will* cut the reliability of Dark Regen and since you're a resist set, you *will* get hit with these powers and this will directly affect more powers in that set other than Dark Regen.
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In your examples you have valid points, but those examples are easily overcome because while leveling up you rare face any enemies that will debuff your accuracy or to-hit to the point where DR doesn't heal you off of at least one enemy.
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| As a heal? Yes, DR is more powerful and decently reliable...it also costs 1/3 of your endurance to use. |
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| But Energy Drain isn't just a heal. If you *need* a heal, you can just do what SR does and pick up the medicine pool or use lots of protection toggles to protect you better. But even being a drain and a +END power, it can also heal you for potentially 60%. Not even Ice Armor gets a heal that it can use to spot-fix itself when needed. |
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I agree that energy drain is not as great on a stalker compared to a brute. It's not a bad idea to design a different energy drain for stalkers. As such, the motivation behind the thread is ok. On the other hand, the suggestion needs more thought. I don't think the discussion on comparing energy drain and dark regeneration will be productive. Realistically, a new energy drain needs an endurance component such that the essense of the power set and the power can be kept.
I agree, comparing the two powers is pointless and that is not why I created the topic in the first place. I just wanted thoughts on the idea and it seems like people just took it upon themselves to start comparing the two powers rather than discuss the idea.
In my opinion Energy Drain would be a much better power for the Stalkers if it mimiced Energize or if they just increased the heal portion of it. Energy Aura is light on endurance cost so having ED and CP is a bit overkill in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Novella
Fair enough to you, but in my experience I can say it and it holds true 100%.
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Great. DR is a good heal because that is what it is for. But it is not and never will be 100% reliable and infallible. You *can* miss with it, you can be debuffed so that's more likely to miss. Hell, you can be *KNOCKED AWAY* while trying to use it since the set doesn't have KB protection. These are *ALL* taken into account when balancing the power.
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| I've never had a single moment where I had DR completely miss all enemies and not heal me completely. |
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| In your examples you have valid points, but those examples are easily overcome because while leveling up you rare face any enemies that will debuff your accuracy or to-hit to the point where DR doesn't heal you off of at least one enemy. |
That said, Energy Drain isn't a heal. It's an Endurance management tool with various other utilities. Its meager heal is to give it more HP regen over time, not to burst heal you to full. You won't ever get such utility out of ED without special situations and you *shouldn't* because it wouldn't be *BALANCED*. Or do you fail to understand how stupidly out of balanced an END refill + Burst heal + END drain on a 30 sec timer is?
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| Question. Why are you even mentioning Ice Armor when its completely irrelevant in this discussion. |
ED is fine as is. Maybe a slight adjustment to the +HP per target (like 6% on the 1st target and 3% on the rest) so you get a slightly bigger bang with a few foes, but you should *NOT* be able to get a big heal and a big endurance return while draining the enemy.
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Who cares if its not 100% reliable, I sure as hell don't. I don't give damn if it hits 10 out of 10 or 2 out of 10. With 1 hit out of 10 I will still get 714 hit points on my Scrapper and additionally I don't care if the set doesn't have KB, my Scrapper has 10 points of KB protection so I am guaranteed to not get knocked back thus your example is negated.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Great. DR is a good heal because that is what it is for. But it is not and never will be 100% reliable and infallible. You *can* miss with it, you can be debuffed so that's more likely to miss. Hell, you can be *KNOCKED AWAY* while trying to use it since the set doesn't have KB protection. These are *ALL* taken into account when balancing the power.
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[quote]And I've never had a single moment where Energy Drain missed or failed to return my endurance to full and return a bit of HP. Wow, what's your point?[quote]
Rather than single out one sentence in the post why not go apply it all and you will see my point since its very clear. You go on about DR not being reliable and my ENTIRE post [the above sentence included] is providing examples of why it is as reliable if not more reliable than ED.
Again this is NOT a comparison topic on ED and DR, this topic is thought about my original question.
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| And *this* is false. I have and you can and unless the team is packing defense debuffs (it's been a while since I was on a team that actually had a noticable amount) or ToHit buffs (which is quite possible). I know this because I play Dark Armor on a Stalker too. And he's an AoE stalker so teams and solos for mass foes. A simple glue patch can be extremely debilitating since, if he's knocked back, it'll take him that much longer to get close and heal himself. |
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| That said, Energy Drain isn't a heal. It's an Endurance management tool with various other utilities. Its meager heal is to give it more HP regen over time, not to burst heal you to full. You won't ever get such utility out of ED without special situations and you *shouldn't* because it wouldn't be *BALANCED*. Or do you fail to understand how stupidly out of balanced an END refill + Burst heal + END drain on a 30 sec timer is? |
I do understand how unbalanced it would be if it was a burst heal, but DID I EVER SAY that ED should be a burst heal? No I didn't so that ends that. Look at my original post, I said make it more like DR, not make it DR. As I have pointed out numerous times I don't care about the endurance aspect of the power, I find it pointless since the set is endurance-lite already. ED could afford to drain less endurance in exchange for a boost to the healing aspect. Hell I would be completely happy if the power provided 0% heal and 0% recovery until slotted with either healing or end mod enhancements. At least that way you get the option of what you would like.
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Because Ice armor is Energy armor's equivalent. They're both typed defense sets with some resistance and neither have a moderate recharge heal. Hoarfrost is close but its recharge will ensure it's not up that often. That is to say, they both *can* burst heal but under certain circumstances. ED is fine as is. Maybe a slight adjustment to the +HP per target (like 6% on the 1st target and 3% on the rest) so you get a slightly bigger bang with a few foes, but you should *NOT* be able to get a big heal and a big endurance return while draining the enemy. |
If you think it fine, bravo, but I don't. It's obvious you have it stuck in your mind that I am asking for ED to become DR with that isn't the case at all. Asking for a power to be "LIKE" another power is not the same as asking for it to "BE" that power.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
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Psst, afore you go mentioning superfluous things and ******** about irrelevance, remember, the devs DO NOT balance around IO's... so your DR firing for 16 End and your KB Protection is irrelevant. ^_^
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Originally Posted by Novella
Who... [angry rant of dOOOOOm!]... that power.
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I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Lately I have been playing my EM/EA Stalker whom I love playing and I got to thinking about the power Energy Drain. Do you think it would overpower Stalkers if the power was changed again and made more like Dark Regeneration?
I personally find the healing aspect of Energy Drain to be completely useless and I remember when it didn't heal at all. I know the power is there for restoring endurance primarily, but I think it would balance the power set perfectly if the power were changed to mimic Dark Regeneration.
Thoughts!
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)