Time to revist Katie rewards
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2011-02-26 21:32 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I agree, it needs to be looked at again. I don't know how fast it can be done now because I haven't been on a speed run in a long time. With the change to the second mission the Merits should go up because it does take longer to do.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
I think Kahn and Cuda got bugged, because cuda use to give 30 Merits now it give 20. Cuda takes longer to run than Kahn. Maybe they need to revisit all TF/SF rewards. But then all the speed runs people have been doing will kill the rewards too.
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The entire system needs to be looked at again.
The rewards are completely out of whack in so many areas it's ridiculous.
Take Dr. K 30 minutes and you get 30 merits. Great, godd for you.
Now look at Baracuda and the 20 merits you get in 1 hour.
The Whole system is messed up and completion Time should have never been used as the primary factor to determine the rewards.
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Then what should be? Given the context (an MMO), it seems to me that completion time should be the primary metric for rewards. What would you suggest instead?
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Originally Posted by DMystic
The Whole system is retarded and completion Time should have never been used as the primary factor to determine the rewards.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
They should use a scale similar to Max tickets for an AE map, which also factors in Ambushes and Objectives, AVs, Monsters, difficulty settings, etc.
AVs and Monsters would also be based on levels. ie in STF and LRSF those extra levels would add to extra merits. Also the way they are linked in LRSF would have to add to it.
Difficulty settings. No Temps would be a set amount. Time and Deaths would have it if they are met, if they are failed nothing is deducted. This does give more incentive to go for Mo's.
Failing a mission would deduct Merits, ie LGTF and the Chatty Sisters is one everyone knows.
Percentage of Spawns defeated. Yes you could skip mobs and still win the mission. BUt defeating 95%+ of them should give a large bonus. But the code needs to not read mobs defeated in a mission until everyone exits / next mission is set. As you can get mission complete while still fighting. Perfect examples are last mission of Cuda and the 2nd Mission of Silver Mantis.
Number of Missions should also be counted. So that something like Quarterhell would be worth quite a but due to the number if missions.
@Blood Beret(2)Twitter
I am a bad speeler, use poorer grammar, and am a frequent typoist.
MA ArcID: 1197
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill
Merit Rewards are based on the median completion time. If people stop speed-running everything, rewards should (this is the key word) go back up eventually.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Its also based on difficulty.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Merit Rewards are based on the median completion time. If people stop speed-running everything, rewards should (this is the key word) go back up eventually.
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Tho its probably only the new incarnate TFs which take that into consideration.
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That's the point. Katie's current reward is based on times which the median team are no longer able to accomplish because of changes to the second mission.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Merit Rewards are based on the median completion time. If people stop speed-running everything, rewards should (this is the key word) go back up eventually.
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In any event, Katie should have never been reduced so much. It's the ONLY low level TF I'm aware of that locks you into a fight against a +3 AV with storm debuff powers and 3-4 boss level attendants with similar powers.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I don't think what's actually in a TF in terms of challenge has any bearing whatsoever on the merit reward the devs assign to something. Or the CoP trial, Apex and Tin Mage would offer significantly higher rewards. Good luck convincing the devs otherwise.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's the point. Katie's current reward is based on times which the median team are no longer able to accomplish because of changes to the second mission.
In any event, Katie should have never been reduced so much. It's the ONLY low level TF I'm aware of that locks you into a fight against a +3 AV with storm debuff powers and 3-4 boss level attendants with similar powers. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Sounds to me like you are just asking for a rightful nerf to Dr. K's rewards.
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So.....Soon? For some of these it's been literally years.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Merit Rewards are based on the median completion time. If people stop speed-running everything, rewards should (this is the key word) go back up eventually.
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On a less snarky note, Barracuda needs a serious looking at, especially compared to Apex and Tin Mage. Their reward is over twice that of the BSF (40 merits and 2 guaranteed shards to 20 merits) for roughly the same effort.
The RSF has been debated for years on this forum (how do we factor in failed attempts?), just bump it up to 32 or so then call it a day (somewhere between the ITF and STF).
"Can play" is not a binary. It's a float.
There are some pretty low values of "can play" out there.
--Fulmens
The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off
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I ran a Katie last week, we didn't have any difficulty on any iteration of Mary McComber, and we finished in 40 minutes. Maybe it could use an increase of a few merits, but not much.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's the point. Katie's current reward is based on times which the median team are no longer able to accomplish because of changes to the second mission.
In any event, Katie should have never been reduced so much. It's the ONLY low level TF I'm aware of that locks you into a fight against a +3 AV with storm debuff powers and 3-4 boss level attendants with similar powers. |
At any rate, it's probably not gonna happen until the devs either change the formula for merit rewards or the median completion time increases.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Apex and Tin Mage do offer higher rewards. Neither of those take longer than an hour. If they were a normal TF they would give about 25 merits. Not 40 and two automatic shards.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I don't think what's actually in a TF in terms of challenge has any bearing whatsoever on the merit reward the devs assign to something. Or the CoP trial, Apex and Tin Mage would offer significantly higher rewards. Good luck convincing the devs otherwise.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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It's irrelevant whether you subjectively find it difficult. It's objectively harder than Sister Psyche, which gives 5.5x the reward. Of course, both are trivial at this point, but Katie's AV is still stronger and has stronger attendants. And Sister Psyche doesn't even take that much longer.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
I ran a Katie last week, we didn't have any difficulty on any iteration of Mary McComber, and we finished in 40 minutes. Maybe it could use an increase of a few merits, but not much.
At any rate, it's probably not gonna happen until the devs either change the formula for merit rewards or the median completion time increases. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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And hence you proving my point that nothing in the tf determines the rewards the devs attach to them. Time is all that matters. In terms of Katie, having a +3 AV in it is irrelevant.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Apex and Tin Mage do offer higher rewards. Neither of those take longer than an hour. If they were a normal TF they would give about 25 merits. Not 40 and two automatic shards.
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All that matters is how fast the median teams can complete something. That's it.
I guarantee you Katie does NOT take any longer now than it did when they nerfed it, for most teams.
EDIT: As a matter of discussion I don't think Incarnate Content falls under the regular tf rules. That I can agree with.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Heavens, not at all! I think that 30 Merits is about right for the time and effort spent on, say, a 45m-1hr Dr. K.. It takes a fairly specific team makeup to speed run it, so I don't feel like reducing the award because it CAN be speed-run is justified. MOST teams are going to spend about 45m on it. (I encourage my team to clear the last map for Shards.)| Sounds to me like you are just asking for a rightful nerf to Dr. K's rewards. |
I usually don't pay attention to the merit rewards for TFs. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head what BSF awards these days. I do know that Katie's minimum completion time has gone WAY up due to the changes.
(Whether or not I'm imagining the change to the 4th mission is still up for debate. ^_^)
I recently ran one and a friend asked, upon seeing the change to the Amy J. mission, "What's the point of even running this TF once you have the accolade if it's only worth 9 merits? You're not really getting anything for your time here."
I personally disagreed with him. There's a ton of EXP to be had for under-35s. There's lots of very valuable mid-level salvage, which is even going for lots more than I think it's worth these days. There's also the fun of the Defeat Mary*10 fight. I personally enjoy the contest and love going at it with both odd and ideal teams.
However, a lot of players are reward-driven. Just because it's a fun challenge is not enough reason to do the taskforce. I'd suspect my disappointed friend is in the majority.
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I've read this three times and still don't know how this post follows what I wrote. Not trying to be a jerk, I'm honestly not following your train of thought.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And hence you proving my point that nothing in the tf determines the rewards the devs attach to them. Time is all that matters. In terms of Katie, having a +3 AV in it is irrelevant.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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While I'm not Aura, I think the train of thought was basically "If a +3 AV doesn't slow people down, it's not really that much of a challenge."
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I've read this three times and still don't know how this post follows what I wrote. Not trying to be a jerk, I'm honestly not following your train of thought.
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We did the COP trial in twelve minutes...
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I don't think what's actually in a TF in terms of challenge has any bearing whatsoever on the merit reward the devs assign to something. Or the CoP trial, Apex and Tin Mage would offer significantly higher rewards. Good luck convincing the devs otherwise.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Nine merits is a bit out of whack, especially since the change to the Amy mission. On my FASTEST teams, my mission timing breaks down about like so:
11-15 minutes for Mission 1, vs. Mary M.
8-15 minutes for Mission 2, Rescuing Amy J., depending on the map
7-9 minutes for cleaning Katie's bedroom for her
3-10 minutes to rescue Katie's ghost... despite the fact that she ain't dead yet.
Best case for the TF these days is around 29 minutes. And that's assuming that Katie doesn't go nuts on the last mission and tear into the redcaps, which she's been doing SIGNIFICANTLY more often since issue 17.
Dr. K awards 30 merits, and it can be done by a speed team in around (or somewhat less than) 30 minutes.
Katie is my favorite TF in the game, but it's somewhat hard to recruit for due to the low rewards. I'd love to see those rewards bumped to make it more attractive.