They will both perform adequately for the goals you have set. The question is do you prefer more surviveabilty, or more damage. (You will be surviveable enough. One can never have too much damage.)
I do recommend some defense for Fire Armor. If you get a decent amount (within a small purple of softcap), You will be a very tough whatever you choose with decent resists, a great heal and a fantastic end recovery power. Everything else is cake.
Quote:
Is the damage for brutes noticeably different? I've never actually played a tank as anything other than taunt machine, so I've no real frames of reference for damage between the two sets.
|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
They will both perform adequately for the goals you have set. The question is do you prefer more surviveabilty, or more damage. (You will be surviveable enough. One can never have too much damage.)
I do recommend some defense for Fire Armor. If you get a decent amount (within a small purple of softcap), You will be a very tough whatever you choose with decent resists, a great heal and a fantastic end recovery power. Everything else is cake. |
Quote:
It takes about 5% fury to surpass tankers' damage, iirc.
|
Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
Is the damage for brutes noticeably different? I've never actually played a tank as anything other than taunt machine, so I've no real frames of reference for damage between the two sets.
|
FA is plenty tough enough to handle +2/x8 mobs if properly built. I have a fire/fire brute who rounds up two or three mobs at a time w/bosses included at that level with ease. There are certain enemy groups that cause me headaches, especially while running at +4/x8, forces me to adjust my pace and there's alot of clicking involved in staying alive, but in honesty these are the same mobs who cause my lvl50 inv/ss problems as well... just more clicking on the brute. He's softcapped to s/l, and outside a few exotic damage types or debuffs, healing flames handles everything else.
A tank will give you a slight edge in survivability which will help with FA, and if you are not deadset on being a walking chainsaw the damage you will be able to put out with a FA/SS tank will more than suffice.
-B
Quote:
Cool, thanks for the input. Presumably the biggest determinant in tank survivability with this set is increased raw numbers healing from Healing Flames?
|
Originally Posted by Berliner
FA is plenty tough enough to handle +2/x8 mobs if properly built. I have a fire/fire brute who rounds up two or three mobs at a time w/bosses included at that level with ease. There are certain enemy groups that cause me headaches, especially while running at +4/x8, forces me to adjust my pace and there's alot of clicking involved in staying alive, but in honesty these are the same mobs who cause my lvl50 inv/ss problems as well... just more clicking on the brute. He's softcapped to s/l, and outside a few exotic damage types or debuffs, healing flames handles everything else.
A tank will give you a slight edge in survivability which will help with FA, and if you are not deadset on being a walking chainsaw the damage you will be able to put out with a FA/SS tank will more than suffice. -B |
Quote:
Well a bunch of things actually that all add up to a generally higher degree of survivability; more base HP, and better resist numbers but on FA they're still not that great, or at least game changing. Healing Flames job is to cover your behind where your resistances lack but FA's true defensive strength is in its offense and assiting you in stopping your foes from dishing out the damage in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
Cool, thanks for the input. Presumably the biggest determinant in tank survivability with this set is increased raw numbers healing from Healing Flames?
|
My INV/SS tank jumps into a mob of purples, I put foot stomp on autofire and go make a sandwich. Eventually they all die. My FM/FA brute jumps into a mob of purples he dies if I stop to blow my nose for a minute BUT if I'm attentive and attacking I've cleared that mob in seconds.
-B
Quote:
Interesting stuff. Out of interest, is it best to focus on +recharge for perma hasten (and all the wonders that brings) or +defence for FA/SS survivability?|
Originally Posted by Berliner
Well a bunch of things actually that all add up to a generally higher degree of survivability; more base HP, and better resist numbers but on FA they're still not that great, or at least game changing. Healing Flames job is to cover your behind where your resistances lack but FA's true defensive strength is in its offense and assiting you in stopping your foes from dishing out the damage in the first place.
My INV/SS tank jumps into a mob of purples, I put foot stomp on autofire and go make a sandwich. Eventually they all die. My FM/FA brute jumps into a mob of purples he dies if I stop to blow my nose for a minute BUT if I'm attentive and attacking I've cleared that mob in seconds. -B |
Essentially, will popping off Healing Flames every couple of seconds and having mobs die much faster be better than having extra damage mitigation? Or is it possible to make a build that has both?
Quote:
It's possible to have both. I have a fa/fire tank that is soft capped to sm/lethal and melee, decent resists, and healing flames recharges in 12 seconds. I am about 8 seconds shy of permanent hasten. It's a very tough toon. It would not be very difficult to pull off with a brute.
|
Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
Interesting stuff. Out of interest, is it best to focus on +recharge for perma hasten (and all the wonders that brings) or +defence for FA/SS survivability?
Essentially, will popping off Healing Flames every couple of seconds and having mobs die much faster be better than having extra damage mitigation? Or is it possible to make a build that has both? |
Quote:
Ah ha! Now I get to grill you (pun definitely intended) about FA/x tanks!|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
It's possible to have both. I have a fa/fire tank that is soft capped to sm/lethal and melee, decent resists, and healing flames recharges in 12 seconds. I am about 8 seconds shy of permanent hasten. It's a very tough toon. It would not be very difficult to pull off with a brute.
|
On unideal mobs (presumably toxic?) what sort of settings can you handle before it becomes either too slow or too dangerous to solo? Can you tank as the main tank on 8 man teams without getting overwhelmed?
Thanks!
Both are actually pretty important and easy enough to get good numbers in both recharge and defense. If you can afford the Kinetic Combats nowadays you can softcap to S/L very easily. My Fire/Fire brute actually just added Hasten to his build after years of farming at 50 and I have noticed a big difference in both damage output and survivability, and he has sucky recharge numbers too, I think only 105% with Hasten.
Personally, if I had to choose between the two I'd go with +defense. He's a little squishier than I like and his damage numbers are off the freaking chart already. If I had my druthers I wish my Inv/SS tank was a brute because he's tougher than he needs to be and I'd like a little more damage out of him, whereas I wish my Fire/Fire brute were a tank because I'd like him a smidge tougher and I'd be willing to trade in a percentage of the ridiculous damage he puts out.
And again, even with my recharge numbers, your talking about hitting Rage and Fiery Embrace before jumping in that mob, then Burn then Foot Stomp then... well then nothing, because there's only a boss standing in front of you by that point, chuck out a single target attack or two and then on to the next mob. If you're fighting +4 mobs they may be slightly tougher and you'll need to drop Burn again which is not a problem because it recharges retardedly fast and is up and waiting for you.
Either way, good times are ahead of you my friend, enjoy! 
)
-B
Quote:
Thanks bud, you've been a tremendous help. I'll roll a tank.|
Originally Posted by Berliner
Both are actually pretty important and easy enough to get good numbers in both recharge and defense. If you can afford the Kinetic Combats nowadays you can softcap to S/L very easily. My Fire/Fire brute actually just added Hasten to his build after years of farming at 50 and I have noticed a big difference in both damage output and survivability, and he has sucky recharge numbers too, I think only 105% with Hasten.
Personally, if I had to choose between the two I'd go with +defense. He's a little squishier than I like and his damage numbers are off the freaking chart already. If I had my druthers I wish my Inv/SS tank was a brute because he's tougher than he needs to be and I'd like a little more damage out of him, whereas I wish my Fire/Fire brute were a tank because I'd like him a smidge tougher and I'd be willing to trade in a percentage of the ridiculous damage he puts out. And again, even with my recharge numbers, your talking about hitting Rage and Fiery Embrace before jumping in that mob, then Burn then Foot Stomp then... well then nothing, because there's only a boss standing in front of you by that point, chuck out a single target attack or two and then on to the next mob. If you're fighting +4 mobs they may be slightly tougher and you'll need to drop Burn again which is not a problem because it recharges retardedly fast and is up and waiting for you. Either way, good times are ahead of you my friend, enjoy! )-B |
If I could +rep you I would!
Quote:
I've been the main "tanker" for every single redside SF and villain group set for 8 man teams (aside from Apex and Tin Mage which I have yet to try) on my FA brute with ease. I will admit to frantically searching my power trays during a LRSF or two saying to myself "...now where did I put Rise of the Phoenix" but that's a very rare circumstance where I probably had no team support whatsoever.|
Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
On unideal mobs (presumably toxic?) what sort of settings can you handle before it becomes either too slow or too dangerous to solo? Can you tank as the main tank on 8 man teams without getting overwhelmed?
Thanks! |
Aside from a nightmarish mish I ran filled with nothing but Praetorian Seers (i'm going back for revenge btw), there is nothing in this game you could not solo at +1/x8.
-B
Quote:
I have a fm/fa brute with 46.7 defense to smashing and lethal, decent resists and great recharge- so it is possible to softcap without gimping yourself with the brute or the tank. (thanks static!) |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
It's possible to have both. I have a fa/fire tank that is soft capped to sm/lethal and melee, decent resists, and healing flames recharges in 12 seconds. I am about 8 seconds shy of permanent hasten. It's a very tough toon. It would not be very difficult to pull off with a brute.
|
Of course, with some of the high end content, a tank is just going to fare better now that the difference in HP is so pronounced. Yes, soft capped def is soft capped def, but what happens when those hits start trickling in?
Both can be all purpose, but the brute will be better for farming and the tank will be better for tanking (duh).
Before tankers got buffed, I was of the mindset that tankers were easily replaced by brutes in tanking roles, and that is still true for much of the game. For the two new TFs and even more in what else is coming, brutes just aren't able to stand in for tanks sometimes. The difference in survivability is just too great.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Quote:
Non-ideal mobs are heavy Psi and to-hit debuffing - that is, Carnies. Healing Flames stacks up to a 60% (for tankers) toxic resistance pretty easily, but Fiery Aura has nothing to Psi, and usually falls back on killing them faster, which heavy -tohit messes with. |
Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
Ah ha! Now I get to grill you (pun definitely intended) about FA/x tanks!
On unideal mobs (presumably toxic?) what sort of settings can you handle before it becomes either too slow or too dangerous to solo? Can you tank as the main tank on 8 man teams without getting overwhelmed? Thanks! |
I solo +0/x8 on my Fire/Fire tanker, Carnies included, so Rage and the knockdown in Foot Stomp should help. Then again, I don't mind hitting Rise of the Phoenix on a hard spawn (three Master Illusionists and three Steel Strongmen? Really?), so I might not be the best person to ask about "getting overwhelmed".
EDIT: I've also tanked the ITF, LGTF, Kahn, and the STF with no-one else on the team tougher than a scrapper. Don't be afraid of RotP - if you can hit it in a second or two, you'll have your aggro back immediately and avoid a wipe.
Lets compare my Dark/Dark tank to my Dark/Dark Brute. If tanking under -rechg conditions especially the tank wins hands down.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
An FA Brute will have issues being the main tank without teammate/insp help. FA is the least survivable armor set without question(It gets to be the strongest offensively instead), and even fully IO'd you won't have an easy time keeping your health bar up in a lot of TF's. A Tanker will have an easier time.
For farming however, FA has the most potential out of all the armor sets, and Brutes have Tankers beat in that regard(SS/FA is the best farmer combo). However seeing as SS/FA is so awesome, FA/SS is pretty damn good as well for farming.
So the question comes down to, which of the two is more important to you: Farming or being the lead tanker?
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
As Mack said, it is easy to stack the toxic resist from healing flames to 60% or so. Unideal mobs... I would probably turn it down to +2/8 maybe +1 if I am going to run some arachnos mish's. |
Originally Posted by Aneurysmo
Ah ha! Now I get to grill you (pun definitely intended) about FA/x tanks!
On unideal mobs (presumably toxic?) what sort of settings can you handle before it becomes either too slow or too dangerous to solo? Can you tank as the main tank on 8 man teams without getting overwhelmed? Thanks! |
I can be lead tank on 8 man tf's, but I don't. He doesn't have taunt, and is build as a very heavy scrapper with an uninterrupted aoe attack chain.
Quote:
Take a look at soul patron power. Stacking -to hit with what defense you can manage is awesome. Stacking -damage with your resists? Gravy.
|
Originally Posted by magikwand
I have a fm/fa brute with 46.7 defense to smashing and lethal, decent resists and great recharge- so it is possible to softcap without gimping yourself with the brute or the tank. (thanks static!)
Of course, with some of the high end content, a tank is just going to fare better now that the difference in HP is so pronounced. Yes, soft capped def is soft capped def, but what happens when those hits start trickling in? Both can be all purpose, but the brute will be better for farming and the tank will be better for tanking (duh). Before tankers got buffed, I was of the mindset that tankers were easily replaced by brutes in tanking roles, and that is still true for much of the game. For the two new TFs and even more in what else is coming, brutes just aren't able to stand in for tanks sometimes. The difference in survivability is just too great. |
My mildly IO'd SS/FA/Pyre brute can main tank pretty much any content except Apex/Tin Mage without trouble. (assuming average team makeup) Last time I ran Tin Mage I was getting my teeth kicked in any time I had to handle big aggro, but my last Apex was cake. Differences were largely due to what support sets were there, but that isn't something you can control whether you pick a tanker or a brute.
All I can say is on a brute it is just amazing, though the rage crashes have me looking at a Claws/FA. That said, I originally considered a FA/SS tank too, but I didn't feel that the extra damage sacrificed would be worth it considering you can make up a lot of survivability with IO's.
Quote:
Oh, I know the options, but I prefer Mu on that brute. Darkest night is great, but just not my preferred path for that toon.
|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Take a look at soul patron power. Stacking -to hit with what defense you can manage is awesome. Stacking -damage with your resists? Gravy.
|
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
I was teamed with a couple Fire Tanks this week during the LGTF's on my BS/WP scrapper.
The Fire tanks repeatedly died and I just kept rolling. It took only a couple of mobs and I took over as the one accepting the alphas. They just dropped too fast.
They are great for damage but honestly I am leveling a Fire/Electric tank and he is FAR more survivable than my SS/Fire Brute. Both are in their mid-30's and with only a few IO's. The Electric knockdown really helps to mitigate the alphas. I really love fire armor but is so weak as to not be in the same coversation as many of the other armors.
Unless you really work hard to close the gaping defense hole its a tough road. I tried to advocate that Temperature protection have a 5% + def to all but Psi added - but that didn't work out :P
Quote:
Interesting, considering SS has much more KB than elec.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
They are great for damage but honestly I am leveling a Fire/Electric tank and he is FAR more survivable than my SS/Fire Brute. Both are in their mid-30's and with only a few IO's. The Electric knockdown really helps to mitigate the alphas. I really love fire armor but is so weak as to not be in the same coversation as many of the other armors.
|
My opinion: go with a brute you will have A LOT more dmg and surprisingly comparable survivability if you shoot for the s/l soft cap. And one thing to consider when teaming is that there is a VERY high chance you will run into buffs, which can really make survivability a non-issue. So the brute can easily get very very close to tank survivability but the tank will never get similarly close to brute dmg.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Quote:
I run a Fire/Fire tank. No mitigation whatsoever in primary or secondary. And I can tank Lord Recluse with a little support. So if your fire tankers couldn't take the alphas on a LGTF, that's either their fault or the Riders fights - Fiery Aura has no fear protection, so you sould really avoid Pestilence if there's no mez protection from the support.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I was teamed with a couple Fire Tanks this week during the LGTF's on my BS/WP scrapper.
The Fire tanks repeatedly died and I just kept rolling. It took only a couple of mobs and I took over as the one accepting the alphas. They just dropped too fast. They are great for damage but honestly I am leveling a Fire/Electric tank and he is FAR more survivable than my SS/Fire Brute. Both are in their mid-30's and with only a few IO's. The Electric knockdown really helps to mitigate the alphas. I really love fire armor but is so weak as to not be in the same coversation as many of the other armors. Unless you really work hard to close the gaping defense hole its a tough road. I tried to advocate that Temperature protection have a 5% + def to all but Psi added - but that didn't work out :P |
Yeah, a Fire tanker can't stand in the midle of a spawn and let their aura do the killing. That's why you get tools like Burn and Fiery Embrace. They're improtant tanking tools - an enemy you defeat is dealing no damage and causing no buffs, debuffs or mezzes. And soft-capping a Fiery Aura tanker is hard, but applying 20-30 points of defense isn't out of the question, and it's still a big boost to survivability, especially if you happen to run into a Cold, Emp, FF, Shield Defense, or random melee type running Maneuvers. Or, y'know, eat one or two purples before a big spawn.
I run +0/x8 on a Fire/Fire tanker without the Fighting pool. I need special tactics for Carnies, Arachnos, and I occasionally corner-pull DE if they get a bunch of Cairns and a Quartz in one place. Everything else, I dive in. Can I sustain the damage of an 8-man spawn? Not for very long. But with Burn, FSC and Fireball, I don't need to. Dead mobs do no damage, and I'm very quickly fighting a couple of bosses, rather than a massive mob. It even leverages Healing Flames - it's at its best overcoming burst damage. If mobs make one attack and then die, they're effectively burst damage, not sustained.
Granite-level tough? Hell no. Same conversation as other tankers? Absolutely.
Yeah no question about it, my fire tank can also tank just about anything. I recently got to the point where 1 purple caps me to S/L and melee, but I barely ever need to use that purple....or even healing flames, for that matter. I farm Nemesis (or rather the Automatons from Unai Kemen that have all the same powers) for shards on +4/+8, and I use HF maybe once every 10 spawns. The mass knockback in foot stomp (plus haymaker and KoB for bosses) really does wonders, especially on top of all the other defenses I have.
It may be true that fire scrappers and brutes are somewhat squishy, but fire tanks can be built to be very survivable. With enough money, as survivable as almost any tank out there.
So I'm considering rolling a Fire Armour/Super Strength combo and I've been a little uncertain about whether I should roll that combo on a tank or a brute. I'm not looking to be an uber farmer, I'm looking to be team oriented, but also more than capable in solo. A friend of mine's properly decked out FA/SS tank can really hold her own in solo with +2/x8 spawns (just regular content, she's no farmer either), but I've never seen a brute version so I'd like to know the main differences are between the two.
Furthermore, is this a type of tank that's going to be able to tank in teams without getting itself splattered? It seems hugely damage oriented, so is it fair to say that it has a tough time coping with the incoming damage on large teams compared to other tanks?
Goals for the build:
- Easy soloing at x8 spawns (+level doesn't bother me)
- Capable main tanking on TFs and general teams
I'd love to hear the opinions of the forum on whether a brute or a tank would be more suited to my needs. Furthermore, if anyone feels that another type of tank or brute would better meet my goals then feel free to say so.Cheers!