Yes.
-dmg being more potent than -tohit.
Lets say you have soft-capped defence...any -tohit is gonna be useless for the most part. Softcapping leaves enemies with 5% to hit you, the lowest it is allowed to be, so any -tohit is gonna be innefective.
If you have hardcap resistance then -dmg will still be effective, but I don't think very. I can't be bothered to try maths, but I think that the -dmg would be applied as the attack goes out, and then resistances applied when it comes in. So atleast small amount of -dmg compared to the potency of large amounts of resistance would probably only remove a further point or 2 of damage of big attacks.
How actually potent that is, I have no idea.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Even against say newish AV's that have ridiculous amounts of +tohit to burn through high defense builds?|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
Lets say you have soft-capped defence...any -tohit is gonna be useless for the most part. Softcapping leaves enemies with 5% to hit you, the lowest it is allowed to be, so any -tohit is gonna be innefective.
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Also, since I am horrible at math, Is there a summon Dechs or Arcanaville power on the forums to explain the math behind resistance/-dmg?
Well, it's not quite the same thing. -ToHit and +Defense go into the ToHit formula in the exact same spot. However, -DMG comes into play before Resitance gets applied, but it ends up being about the same.
Let's say that you have an attack that does 100 damage, and that you are 50% Resistant to. Normally, this attack would do 50 damage to you. Now, let's say that a 20% -DMG effect gets applied to the enemy. He will now be doing 80 damage to you, of which you resist 40, leaving 40 getting through. As such, you are resisting 20% of the damage that you normally would have taken, but it's not the same as you getting another 20% resistance, if that makes sense.
For instance, if you were to get a +20% resistance buff, you'd be at 70% resistance to the attack, and only take 30 damage.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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This basically.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, it's not quite the same thing. -ToHit and +Defense go into the ToHit formula in the exact same spot. However, -DMG comes into play before Resitance gets applied, but it ends up being about the same.
Let's say that you have an attack that does 100 damage, and that you are 50% Resistant to. Normally, this attack would do 50 damage to you. Now, let's say that a 20% -DMG effect gets applied to the enemy. He will now be doing 80 damage to you, of which you resist 40, leaving 40 getting through. As such, you are resisting 20% of the damage that you normally would have taken, but it's not the same as you getting another 20% resistance, if that makes sense. For instance, if you were to get a +20% resistance buff, you'd be at 70% resistance to the attack, and only take 30 damage. |
Mega_Jamie is right though, the plus side is even if you're at the Resistance Cap -dam will still have an effect.
For example if you are at 90% resistance and apply a 20% damage debuff and take 100 damage you'd only take 8 damage (100 * (1 - 0.2)) * (1 - 0.9). In other words the -damage still reduced the end amount of damage you'd have taken by 20% (from 10 to 8).
Personally I'm starting to think the best thing overall to stack with -Damage is actually Regeneration rather than Resistance. Pity Kinetic Melee isn't that optimal for Brutes really due to the fact it uses stacked Damage buffs as it's trick. A Kin/WP/Soul Brute would be a bit of a damage sponge (or I suppose a WP/Kin/Soul Tank).
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Thanks guys. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, it's not quite the same thing. -ToHit and +Defense go into the ToHit formula in the exact same spot. However, -DMG comes into play before Resitance gets applied, but it ends up being about the same.
Let's say that you have an attack that does 100 damage, and that you are 50% Resistant to. Normally, this attack would do 50 damage to you. Now, let's say that a 20% -DMG effect gets applied to the enemy. He will now be doing 80 damage to you, of which you resist 40, leaving 40 getting through. As such, you are resisting 20% of the damage that you normally would have taken, but it's not the same as you getting another 20% resistance, if that makes sense. For instance, if you were to get a +20% resistance buff, you'd be at 70% resistance to the attack, and only take 30 damage. |
Aett, one more question. If I have hard capped resistance, -dmg theoretically allows me to absorb more damage than the cap because it is applied before the resistance correct?
Also, as it is applied before resistance, and doesn't work in the same formula, does it affect unresistable damage?
Damage debuffs and resistance buffs do not accumulate in the same way as tohit debuffs and defense debuffs.
Suppose you have a 30% resistance buff and the enemy has a -30% damage debuff, and the enemy attacks with an attack that does 100 damage unmodified. The formula for final damage is:
Di * (1-Dd) * (1-R)
where Di is initial damage, Dd is total damage debuff, and R is total resistance. So, first the initial damage is multiplied by 0.7 due to the damage debuff, so the attack now deals 70 damage. Then, the damage is reduced again by resistance, by another factor of 0.7, so the final damage is 49. The reduction in damage is 51%.
Now, suppose you have a 15% defense buff and the enemy has a 15% tohit debuff. The formula for final tohit chance (simplified to ignore accuracy, inherently higher base tohit, and the purple patch) is:
0.5 + (Tb-Td) + (Dd-Db)
where Tb is total tohit buff, Td is total tohit debuff, Dd is total defense debuff, and Db is total defense buff. So, initially, the enemy has a 50% chance to hit. The tohit debuff reduces this by 15%, to 35%. The defense buff then reduces this by a further 15%, to 20%. The reduction in incoming damage is the difference between the final chance to hit and the initial chance to hit, divided by the initial chance to hit:
(50%-20%) / (50%) = 60%
So the expected reduction in incoming damage is 60%. Tohit debuffs and defense debuffs stack more strongly than damage debuffs and resistance buffs.
So, then, why bother with damage debuffs and resistance buffs? There are three reasons.
1. Higher rank enemies resist tohit debuffs. Only enemies with damage resistance resist damage debuffs, and not all high rank enemies have damage resistance.
2. Higher rank enemies have higher base tohit and higher accuracy, which can erode the effectiveness of defense buffs and tohit debuffs. Damage debuffs and resistance buffs are not affected in this way.
3. Tohit debuffs and defense buffs can reduce the chance of being hit, but not the ability to survive hits that come in. Bad luck can take out a character with a minimal chance of being hit, and over a long fight the chance of bad luck increases. Damage debuffs and resistance debuffs make incoming damage slower, so there is more time to determine whether the situation is survivable and lay on additional mitigation.
Of course, if you can have both hit rate reduction and damage reduction, that's even better.
@SPTrashcan
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On the other hand, the cap on where each protection stops is different.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Tohit debuffs and defense debuffs stack more strongly than damage debuffs and resistance buffs.
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If you compare just +res or just -dam to +def/-tohit, the two types of protections are on average equal at the cap (assuming Tanker/Brute resistance, or in all cases for -dam).
However, +def/-tohit stack driectly, so that if you floor the enemy's tohit, you don't need any defense. If you softcap your defense, you don't need any tohit debuff. If you cap your resistance, you can still benefit from damage debuff (and the reverse).
When hit chance is floored, an enemy will do at least 10% of their base damage on average (higher-level opponents, higher-rank opponents, and certain powers have Accuracy which raises their average).
Any entity, at worst, deals 10% of their base damage when under the effects of damage debuff. Tanker/Brute capped resistance is 90%, forcing the damage to 10% of the incoming. A Tanker at capped resistance facing a foe at the maximum damage debuff will take 1% of the base damage. Even if you go down to an AT which caps at 75% res, the final damage would be only 2.5% of the base.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Is -dmg to resistance as -tohit is to defense? That is, -dmg and -tohit applied to the mobs, theoretically increases your resistance/def?