-to hit = how much defense?
By
ChiosuBlues,
Posted on: 2011-01-24 13:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
They work exactly the same.*
The only difference is how -tohit can be resisted by higher level mobs.
Here, look at the formula for final chance to hit:
HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )
Tohit is in the same place as defense, so every % of -tohit acts exactly like a % of defense.
More information here.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
i think its approximatly 1:1 conversion, but you have to take into account the fact that the enemy most likely can resist the -tohit and the -tohit is only applying to the baddies hit chance not all the baddies targeting you
Quote:
Good point, but there is an often overlooked benefit to this. Tohit debuffs will benefit your allies as well.
|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
-tohit is only applying to the baddies hit chance not all the baddies targeting you
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I'm thinking about a power like smoke. Does smoke even have a hit check, seems auto hit.
Quote:
Smoke is autohit, but that's a property of the power. Many -tohit debuffs are attached to powers that must hit their target before the debuff is applied. Even if a power is autohit, the effect can be reduced by the target's resistance to that kind of debuff.|
Originally Posted by lmt1979
I'm thinking about a power like smoke. Does smoke even have a hit check, seems auto hit.
|
One other thing to note about -tohit debuff is that it affects all forms of attack coming from the affected target, so long as they require a tohit check at all. There is no such thing as a "-tohit with lethal attacks" debuff, whereas you can have a defense buff that only applies to a subset of attack and/or damage types.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Quote:
Just a note, smoke's -perception is auto hit, but it's -tohit component requires a check. So no matter what, the enemies will have a harder time seeing you, but their tohit may not get debuffed. But something else that I *think* is unique to smoke, is that its tohit debuff is non resisted if it hits.
|
Originally Posted by Zem
Smoke is autohit, but that's a property of the power.
|
1 point of -ToHit is equal to 1 point of +Def (all vectors, all types) for +0 and lower minions and underlings.
Lieutenants resist -ToHit by 10%.
Bosses resist -ToHit by 20%.
+1 critters of all ranks resist -ToHit by 10%.
+2 critters of all ranks resist -ToHit by 20%.
+3 critters of all ranks resist -ToHit by 35%.
+4 critters of all ranks resist -ToHit by 52%.
+5 critters of all ranks resist -ToHit by 70%.
This resistance increases with level difference, up to 99% at +12 and above.
<edit>
Additionally, I should note that the rank-based resistance is discrete from the level-differential resistance. I forget whether they're factored independently (one resistance calculated before the other is applied) or added together and factored as a single total. I did have that information somewhere, but I've forgotten where... if I find it later, or decide to spend the time testing it again, I'll put it up here.
</edit>
AVs with the Resistance power resist -ToHit by a scaling amount, dependent on their level. A level 50 AV resists -ToHit by 85%, for example.
-ToHit powers flagged as "unresistible" ignore AV Resistance, but not level-differential or rank resistance.
So the answer is, there is no specific answer. How closely -ToHit will equate to +Def (All) will be different for every fight, due to different levels of critters, different mixes of minions, lieutenants and bosses in spawns, etc.
Quote:
No. Smoke Grenade requires a hit check for the -ToHit property. Smoke, from the controller Fire Control primary, is autohit across the board (in PvE).|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Just a note, smoke's -perception is auto hit, but it's -tohit component requires a check.
|
Quote:
| But something else that I *think* is unique to smoke, is that its tohit debuff is non resisted if it hits. |
This property of -ToHit make DM/?? or ??/DM pretty fine for melees of all sorts. See DM/SR anything for examples.
Ware ni tatenu mono mashi!!
[There are none before me who have not been cleaved!!]
Quote:
i'm pretty sure the Night Widow Smoke Grenade is autohit for both aspects of the power, as well as having an unresistable tohit debuff. It can't be slotted for accuracy and also appears to work the same in both PvE and PvP.
|
Originally Posted by Luminara
No. Smoke Grenade requires a hit check for the -ToHit property. Smoke, from the controller Fire Control primary, is autohit across the board (in PvE).
|
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Stalker's -tohit "demoralize" effect from Assassin's Strike isn't resisted, either. Other than that, nothing really to add: everything else has already been said.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Devices.
|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i'm pretty sure the Night Widow Smoke Grenade is autohit for both aspects of the power, as well as having an unresistable tohit debuff. It can't be slotted for accuracy and also appears to work the same in both PvE and PvP.
|
Quote:
Well, yes. Still, i had to double check since i was pretty sure that the Smoke Grenade i usually use was autohit with an unresistable tohit debuff and i'd missed the part where you mentioned which smoke grenade you were talking about.
|
Originally Posted by Luminara
Devices.
|
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
What everyone else said, plus one addition.
-ToHit is type unspecific. It not only helps you cap off whatever your highest defenses are, it supports your weakest ones too.
The only thing I'm unsure of whether it also helps against attacks that are truly of type Untyped that no defense exists for.
Quote:
Well, there is a specific answer. Tohit debuff and Defense have a 1:1 ratio, exactly. There's just a caveat: The debuff you use is rarely the value applied. |
Originally Posted by Luminara
So the answer is, there is no specific answer.
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
It should. It's modifying the attacker's tohit value. If the attack requires a tohit roll then using a tohit debuff will lower the attack's chance to hit by the final debuff value that is applied. So if the enemy's tohit is normally 50% and the final (after rank, con, and all other modifiers are applied) debuffed value is 45% then they have a lower chance to hit regardless of whether or not you have defense.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
What everyone else said, plus one addition.
-ToHit is type unspecific. It not only helps you cap off whatever your highest defenses are, it supports your weakest ones too. The only thing I'm unsure of whether it also helps against attacks that are truly of type Untyped that no defense exists for. |
That reminds me: the next Hami raid i go to i'm going to tag Hami and his Mitos with my Widow's Smoke Grenade and use a power analyzer on them.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
There's no such thing. There's untyped damage, but there isn't an untyped attack vector. You can omit attack vectors entirely (in which case defense doesn't apply), but by nature, every existing attack vector has a corresponding defense type.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
attacks that are truly of type Untyped
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
i took it to mean attacks that require a tohit roll but have no defense tags associated with them. Hamidon and his Mitos are the most common example that comes to mind.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
There's no such thing. There's untyped damage, but there isn't an untyped attack vector. You can omit attack vectors entirely (in which case defense doesn't apply), but by nature, every existing attack vector has a corresponding defense type.
|
Which is where tohit debuffs are always stronger than defense. (Except possibly PFF IIRC since it buffs Base Defense.)
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
I believe Hami and the Mitos are autohit though... at least I don't remember ever seeing one of them miss.
|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i took it to mean attacks that require a tohit roll but have no defense tags associated with them. Hamidon and his Mitos are the most common example that comes to mind.
Which is where tohit debuffs are always stronger than defense. (Except possibly PFF IIRC since it buffs Base Defense.) |
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Yellow Mitos at least can miss with their blasts. However, they have 300% +toHit and the blast has 150% accuracy, meaning that they basically only miss because they are forced to miss on any attack roll of 5% of less.
I've had the blast from a yellow chase me out into the hills and not actually strike me on several occasions.
Hami's own attack is, indeed, auto-hit.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Fulcrum Shift has no attack vectors, either. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i took it to mean attacks that require a tohit roll but have no defense tags associated with them. Hamidon and his Mitos are the most common example that comes to mind.
Which is where tohit debuffs are always stronger than defense. (Except possibly PFF IIRC since it buffs Base Defense.) |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
Neither does Singularity. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Fulcrum Shift has no attack vectors, either.
|
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Just wondering if anyone had a handy formula for converting -to hit to +defense and vice versa, thanks!