Heh...
The short answer? I really, really wouldn't hold your breath on that. I'm very sure others will descend on this thread with in-depth explanations and very likely rants too, so I'll leave it at 'Technical Limitations'. Lots of them.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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To put it simple and blunt, no. Simply because the time it would take to create a new skeleton for all of those new animals and working animations for all of their movements and powers would be astronomical, and would probably end up looking stupid.
Besides, how would you fit Bears, raptors, gators and whatnot into the large metropolis of Paragon City?
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If they are making 4 legged animals I would love to see some kind of robot or cybernetic dogs. I don't like to fight against normal animals in games but hellhounds and robodogs would be great. Generally I'll agree that cox needs animals. Lot lot more animals.
edit. big YES to new skeletons!
edit2. explains are only text on screen. I can explain why we all must but bananas in our ears and why it fits perfectly in backstory.
edit3. dozens and dozens of other games already have different and great looking animal animations and skeletons. It's not so impossible thing to do and we have spiders already. Devs can do new animations. It's their job and I'm going to my job now.
Prunejuice is warriors drink.
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Originally Posted by zachary_EU
If they are making 4 legged animals I would love to see some kind of robot or cybernetic dogs. I don't like to fight against normal animals in games but hellhounds and robodogs would be great. Generally I'll agree that cox needs animals. Lot lot more animals.
edit. big YES to new skeletons! edit2. explains are only text on screen. I can explain why we all must but bananas in our ears and why it fits perfectly in backstory. edit3. dozens and dozens of other games already have different and great looking animal animations and skeletons. It's not so impossible thing to do and we have spiders already. Devs can do new animations. It's their job and I'm going to my job now. |
1) New skeletons take time, especially depending upon the game engine that is used.
2) Explanations are fine, but GOOD explanation for seeing apes run around a city? How many of those could you find that wouldn't be immersion breaking? Certainly, you could explain a giant gorilla climbing a skyscraper in Steel or Talos, but why did the Hellions all of a sudden get trained gorillas?
3) Just because other games can do it doesn't mean ours can with the same degree of success. Different games use different engines and ways of importing skeleton movements. Also, you have to think about relative sizes of departments. Blizzard might be able to hire 15 people to do nothing but make new skeletons. This game can't. And, if it means the three guys working on animations have to stop giving us new powersets for a year or two to give us new skeletons, I'd rather them not.
Also, their job is to keep the game going. But their job is also to make the most money at the least expense to them. Taking a year or two before they could get us new skeletons means X dollars spent. If the return on investment is less than X, then it was a waste of time. If it's around or over X, then that's good, but if they could have done Y cheaper, and at a higher return, then X was still a loss.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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That's all fine and dandy.|
Originally Posted by zachary_EU
If they are making 4 legged animals I would love to see some kind of robot or cybernetic dogs. I don't like to fight against normal animals in games but hellhounds and robodogs would be great. Generally I'll agree that cox needs animals. Lot lot more animals.
edit. big YES to new skeletons! edit2. explains are only text on screen. I can explain why we all must but bananas in our ears and why it fits perfectly in backstory. edit3. dozens and dozens of other games already have different and great looking animal animations and skeletons. It's not so impossible thing to do and we have spiders already. Devs can do new animations. It's their job and I'm going to my job now. |
If, y'know, you ignore a little thing called Reality.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yes I know. Skeletons needs lot of work but I think it's worth of that. How many skeletons we have? I think maybe 2. When villains came out they made spiders and they still looks great. I'm pretty sure that our old engine would hanble dogs too. Just think about how neat it would be to fight against something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0qYo...eature=feedlik
And some good explanations: Praetorian robot assasin dog, ghost/undead from DA, Mr Vahziloks horrible beasts, ghastly mutants, circle of thorns hellhounds, counsils cyberdogs, civilian pets etc. Just one new skeleton would open so many neat things.
Prunejuice is warriors drink.
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Originally Posted by zachary_EU
Yes I know. Skeletons needs lot of work but I think it's worth of that. How many skeletons we have? I think maybe 2. When villains came out they made spiders and they still looks great. I'm pretty sure that our old engine would hanble dogs too. Just think about how neat it would be to fight against something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0qYo...eature=feedlik And some good explanations: Praetorian robot assasin dog, ghost/undead from DA, Mr Vahziloks horrible beasts, ghastly mutants, circle of thorns hellhounds, counsils cyberdogs, civilian pets etc. Just one new skeleton would open so many neat things. |
Right now, we have three player skeletons (Huge, Female, Male). We also have an additional "skeleton" for cylindrical beings (things like the Yeagers, and I think this also has been applied to the spiders that we have in game. Basically, the legs are just animations, not part of the actual skeleton. On a spider, with so many moving parts, it doesn't look so bad. On something with only four legs though, it would be pretty obvious.
Also, would a robot dog walk like a normal dog? The video you linked sure doesn't look like a normal dog walking. As such, that would be a different skeleton from just a normal dog. A cat would walk differently from either the normal or robot dog, so that would be another skeleton if we wanted to include those.
Is this worth it? Maybe for some people, it is. For me, unless the devs promised that this work wouldn't take away from us getting new powersets, I'm against it, because I'd rather have those.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Cat, rat, lizard and canine tails all move differently too, yet all the animated tails have a cattish sway to them|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Right now, we have three player skeletons (Huge, Female, Male). We also have an additional "skeleton" for cylindrical beings (things like the Yeagers, and I think this also has been applied to the spiders that we have in game. Basically, the legs are just animations, not part of the actual skeleton. On a spider, with so many moving parts, it doesn't look so bad. On something with only four legs though, it would be pretty obvious.
Also, would a robot dog walk like a normal dog? The video you linked sure doesn't look like a normal dog walking. As such, that would be a different skeleton from just a normal dog. A cat would walk differently from either the normal or robot dog, so that would be another skeleton if we wanted to include those. Is this worth it? Maybe for some people, it is. For me, unless the devs promised that this work wouldn't take away from us getting new powersets, I'm against it, because I'd rather have those. |
the jaegers are spiderish, but they're four-legged, the tarantulas are basically six-legged
we already have four-legged critters in game, yes, they're basically daleks with a hologram disguising them as something else, but eh, the entire game is a bunch of geometrics wrapped in pretty pictures
I'm willing to overlook things looking not quite real for the chance of fighting more non-humanoid monsters
yes, this would mean that all the dogs land on their feet the way that spiders do when KBed, but that doesn't really matter with the added variety
be satisfied with the cylinder skeleton and then all you need are powers and animations, which is lengthy, yes, but no more than anything else unique
imagine hellhounds with the hellions, the chimera in cimeroa, and so on
the only thing I'd heard as far as technical difficulties go that makes since are their reported attempt at sharks (I believe BAB made a post on the subject way back when) where the problem wasn't graphics, but behavior: the sharks would follow people on land
and, if they took that behavior away, then the characters would find it easy to sit at the water's edge and shoot at the shark.
two ways to fix that for me: make the shark disappear if the character leaves the water (including flight) as the shark returns down into the deep water
or, make mutated sharks with legs or tentacles or something so that getting up on land makes somewhat more sense
so yes:
I'd like to see more animals
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
OK, for all the nay-sayers here's a disclaimer: "I'm sure the developers...being bright intelligent people...know what their engine is capable of and how much time and effort it would take to integrate this suggestion into the game. We all know they'll do whatever is possible within their goals for the game, and what's not or is beyond their resources won't get done."
Now for the person who pulled the "Reality" card out and laid it on the table... Are you sure you really want to do that in regard to a game where people fly around shooting bolts of "whatever" out of some body part?... i.e. this isn't reality.
The proper question is: Can a reasonable story line be constructed for the appearance of said beasties.
The answer is: sure, any writer worth their salt can think up a nearly infinite number of scenarios why one or more beasties should be roaming around Paragon City on the loose.
Question: Should the developers stop what they're currently working on in terms of power sets or other sets to work on this?
Answer: That's a wierd question. They'll work on what they think is important. More content is just as important as more power sets...and IMHO more important. More content = more to explore, more story lines, more interesting situations to experience. I'm pretty sure they're not going to completely abandon one for the other. It's a balance.
The addition of animal forms though represents a huge leap forward in content potential for this game. Not just for mobs but for player content as well. There are all sorts of possiblilities from pets to player costumes (think transformation...i.e. a player could tranform into a wolf, panther, tiger, or bear).
Transformation (a completely different issue) would have it's issues of course> animations for scrappers, tanks, brutes, and stalkers. Most of these could be fairly common among the different types (swipes/slashes, single & two claw/paw). Shooting animations for blasters, controllers, defenders, corruptors and dominators, could eminate from the eyes or mouth. Some powers would obviously not be suited for all animal types... like throwing boulders, an alternative would have to be found.
The work for doing all these animations would obviously not be trivial... but it might be a good job for some summer interns hoping to impress Paragon Studios.
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okay...animations and transformations for players is a lot more work than just adding dinosaurs and wolves and sharks as enemies you can fight|
Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
OK, for all the nay-sayers here's a disclaimer: "I'm sure the developers...being bright intelligent people...know what their engine is capable of and how much time and effort it would take to integrate this suggestion into the game. We all know they'll do whatever is possible within their goals for the game, and what's not or is beyond their resources won't get done."
Now for the person who pulled the "Reality" card out and laid it on the table... Are you sure you really want to do that in regard to a game where people fly around shooting bolts of "whatever" out of some body part?... i.e. this isn't reality. The proper question is: Can a reasonable story line be constructed for the appearance of said beasties. The answer is: sure, any writer worth their salt can think up a nearly infinite number of scenarios why one or more beasties should be roaming around Paragon City on the loose. Question: Should the developers stop what they're currently working on in terms of power sets or other sets to work on this? Answer: That's a wierd question. They'll work on what they think is important. More content is just as important as more power sets...and IMHO more important. More content = more to explore, more story lines, more interesting situations to experience. I'm pretty sure they're not going to completely abandon one for the other. It's a balance. The addition of animal forms though represents a huge leap forward in content potential for this game. Not just for mobs but for player content as well. There are all sorts of possiblilities from pets to player costumes (think transformation...i.e. a player could tranform into a wolf, panther, tiger, or bear). Transformation (a completely different issue) would have it's issues of course> animations for scrappers, tanks, brutes, and stalkers. Most of these could be fairly common among the different types (swipes/slashes, single & two claw/paw). Shooting animations for blasters, controllers, defenders, corruptors and dominators, could eminate from the eyes or mouth. Some powers would obviously not be suited for all animal types... like throwing boulders, an alternative would have to be found. The work for doing all these animations would obviously not be trivial... but it might be a good job for some summer interns hoping to impress Paragon Studios. |
not that I wouldn't love to be able to do it, but that seems a bit unlikely
animals as enemies are easy to fit in story-wise and as appropriate as Kraven the Hunter and his beasties, Penguin's giant condors, Catman's tigers and lions, the Joker's hyenas and what not
dinosaurs, sharks and apes are especially common comic book animals
but I think we're a LONG way from Beast Boy or Beastmaster (though I HAVE suggested animal themed control sets in the past)
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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True. Character transformers would be a ways beyond my original idea.|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
okay...animations and transformations for players is a lot more work than just adding dinosaurs and wolves and sharks as enemies you can fight
not that I wouldn't love to be able to do it, but that seems a bit unlikely animals as enemies are easy to fit in story-wise and as appropriate as Kraven the Hunter and his beasties, Penguin's giant condors, Catman's tigers and lions, the Joker's hyenas and what not dinosaurs, sharks and apes are especially common comic book animals but I think we're a LONG way from Beast Boy or Beastmaster (though I HAVE suggested animal themed control sets in the past) |
However I would be perfectly satisfied with beginning with beast foes and gradually developing other aspects. After all once they do the initial design work, it's only a series of short or long jumps to get where-ever one could go from there.
If you've noticed they already have bird models in Praetoria. It's just a short step from there to ....
The Falconer: Ranged Weapons / Bird Summoning.
If they could develop a dog/wolf model...
The Hunter: Ranged Weapons / Wolf Summoning.
With a Cat Model:
The Lion Tamer: Whip / Cat Summoning.
Could be fascinating.
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They do? Where, exactly, are those models? I'll admit I haven't been looking for them, from an ornithological stand point, but after release that would have been big news. I would think everyone would have heard about it. In fact, I would have thought it to be the word. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I have not heard about the bird.
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Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
If you've noticed they already have bird models in Praetoria. It's just a short step from there to ....
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Re: Reality
While I don't particularly want to see full populations of wildlife roaming most of Paragon City there are a few places they could be appropriate. Aside from the animal companions mentioned above for various villain groups, Eden could justifiably have good wildlife for the heroes to fight. Rebuild Boomtown and put a zoo in it, then add a zone event where the animals get out (villains causing chaos or some such).
Rogue Isles would be a bit harder to justify, but I'm sure LR has a zoo somewhere.
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Actually, we also have a Monstrous skeleton in the game that's used for quite a few things, Kheldian Dwarf form being one of them, along with things like Werewolves, Shivans, Clockwork Princes and so forth. It's basically a model with a large chest and wide shoulders, short legs and long arms.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Right now, we have three player skeletons (Huge, Female, Male).
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It's not player-usable because it doesn't have animations defined for almost any existing powers, and making new ones would not be feasible, or at least so BABs used to say. It does have basic animations, such as running and jumping ones, as well as several but not all emotes (which is why they disabled a whole swath of emotes for Bright/Dark Dwarves way back when), so it's usable as an NPC with few stock powers, but not something that's applicable to players. I don't think that rig has any costume items defined for it, either.
No real point to this, just thought it was interesting.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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would be good for gorillas, perhaps, do wish we had a scale slider for arm length
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, we also have a Monstrous skeleton in the game that's used for quite a few things, Kheldian Dwarf form being one of them, along with things like Werewolves, Shivans, Clockwork Princes and so forth. It's basically a model with a large chest and wide shoulders, short legs and long arms.
It's not player-usable because it doesn't have animations defined for almost any existing powers, and making new ones would not be feasible, or at least so BABs used to say. It does have basic animations, such as running and jumping ones, as well as several but not all emotes (which is why they disabled a whole swath of emotes for Bright/Dark Dwarves way back when), so it's usable as an NPC with few stock powers, but not something that's applicable to players. I don't think that rig has any costume items defined for it, either. No real point to this, just thought it was interesting. |
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Just as a nitpick, we also have the Drone skeleton used by pretty much anything small that flies (Pantheon masks, Rikti/PPD/Arachnos Drones, Council/5th hoverbots, Traps/Skraiders FFG etc) and the Spider skeleton used by low-set models with a lot of legs (various Arachnobots, Tarantulas, Giant Fly Trap).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, we also have a Monstrous skeleton in the game that's used for quite a few things, Kheldian Dwarf form being one of them, along with things like Werewolves, Shivans, Clockwork Princes and so forth. It's basically a model with a large chest and wide shoulders, short legs and long arms.
It's not player-usable because it doesn't have animations defined for almost any existing powers, and making new ones would not be feasible, or at least so BABs used to say. It does have basic animations, such as running and jumping ones, as well as several but not all emotes (which is why they disabled a whole swath of emotes for Bright/Dark Dwarves way back when), so it's usable as an NPC with few stock powers, but not something that's applicable to players. I don't think that rig has any costume items defined for it, either. No real point to this, just thought it was interesting. |
[edit]Oh! And the Tentacle skeleton, used by, well. Tentacles and vines.
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OP: A while back Paragon were advertising for an Animator position, looking for someone with experience of animating non-bipedal things, so you never know, you might be in luck.
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I would like to see some beasts, birds, and monsters in the game.
Wolves/Coyotes/Foxes (not werewolves)
Dogs: wild, domestic, feral, obnoxious (little barking dogs which see through stealth and go call other mobs), hell hounds...
Cats: huge domestic, wild cats (lynx etc.), puma/panthers, tigers, lions, sabertooth...
Bears: Black, Brown, Domestic
Gators & Croc's
Other reptiles (Komodo dragon, large snakes, regular sized poisonous snakes, etc.)
Large Rodents (rats, weasels, vopal bunnies with glowing red eyes and very mean dispositions)
Raptors (eagles, hawks, falcons, etc.)
Insects & Arachnids (large-giant bees, huge-giant wasps, huge real spiders, huge scorpions, fire ants (swarm), giant ants, etc)
Dynosaurs: veloci-raptors, T-Rex, Pteradactyls, etc. (could occupy a lost world under the city--or another Island Zone--or a Crey Lab complex).
Giant Slug or Snail...very resistant to certain types of damage (like smashing-lethal)
There could also be fire, frost, shadow, electric, radioactive, toxic, energy, stone, wood/plant, and ghost versions of the above. (Who knows what Crey has been dumping down the sewers).
Some of these would work great in some of the hazzard zones. It could provide a nice variation from fighting bi-peds most of the time.
It could also be interesting to have variations on pets--
Hero side there could be new AT called 'Beast Master' who could summon animal pets.
It would be cool if Fire controlers could summon fire-birds instead of imps. Stone controlers could summon a Granite Grizzly, or stone puma, etc. These could be additional options.